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Ok, so a buddy and I play every so often. We play 1500pts he is Space marines and I play wiff da lads (Orks) every time we play I table him without trying and I don’t think it should be this imbalanced. With your expertise what can my friend do with his army/tactics to pose more of a threat?
My List:
Hq war boss with PK TL shoota Boss Pole and cybork body
Hq Big Mek With SAG

Elites: 8 lootas (SAG with the lootas)

Troops: 8 Nobz with HC and a pain boy (warboss with them in a trukk)
2x 20 foot sloggin boyz 2 with big shoota and a nob with PK and Boss Pole.
2 trukk squads each with 11boyz one nob with PK and one Big shotta

Heavy Support: 3 killa kans with RL

Fast Attack: Dakka Jet 3TL Suppa Shootas

His list as I remember it.

Hq: Cato? and some librarian? (I never know because he keeps them in the back field and I take out everything else first)

Fast attack: 1 squad of 5 assault marines 3 with plasma pistol

Troops: Whatever comes with the Blackreach set + a rhino
scout sniper squad with 5 scouts
scout squad with pistols and ccw 5 scouts

Heavy Support: one dreadnaught with multi melta

I do not know all his special upgrades and I may have missed some troops.
Any questions please post below.

Thanks

Sounds like his list is a bit weak, he doesn't have much in the way of scoring units, and he's spending points on generally weak things (like Assault Marines). Furthermore, he has basically no ranged fire-power to kill an ork mob with.

Beyond that, you might be just a better player overall. My recommendation would be for him to get a Thunderfire Cannon, that thing makes Orks cry. Some Sternguard with a Drop Pod would be great too.

Short answer: it's easy to lose with space marines in 6th edition.

For specifics, see Andilus's post.

Martel732 wrote:
Short answer: it's easy to lose with space marines in 6th edition.

For specifics, see Andilus's post.

It is... but against Orks? It's not like they're facing off against a triple-drake list, Space Marines and Orks are both fairly mid-tier.

Does not orks smash space marines in melle due to the point diferensial in unit costs? Assault marines are not that impressive. And 3 plasma guns, while cool, is a heavy cost investment.

His army seems quite small, are his points right?

Also, is he feeding his army to you in piecemeals?

His list seems a bit light for 1500 points... I mean 15 marines and 10 scouts... he's not winning because he doesn't have enough guns.

My quick off the cuff math shows the marines to be more like a 1,000 point list then a 1,500. Does he have a squad of terminators? That would add about another 200 points.

Assault marines are not the best to start with, and plasma pistols are overpriced. I'm also not sure how he's packing 3 in a 5 man squad. Unless he is doing a gunslinger sarge, which is a massive waste (but looks cool). If he wants to use these guys, drop the plasma, add a flamer. Power something on the sarge. Chaplains make nice HQs to accompany them, but librarians or captains can work as well.

CC scouts are another unit which can be good, but needs to be used carefully. If he's just rushing forward to mix it up with the boyz, they are going to die.

MM dread needs a drop pod. Or other weapon options.

Tac squad and snipers are fine.

If his HQs are just hiding in the backfield, he's playing with an even larger point handicap then it looks like. They should be front and center. Yes, you might loose the warlord VP, but you get your moneys worth out of the guys.

His list has some major problems. No real good long range fire, some sub-par choices, missing some options. And looks to be around 2/3 the points you are playing at.

6pts for a T4 model is pretty hot, I must admit. The Eldar guardian called and wants a discount!

I am going to assume he is running 5 tac termies as those came in the BlackReach set?

Yes on the termies, I seem to chew them up with the SAG every game. He does feed the squads to my orks in small 5 man squads and they are split up all accross the board. I do not doubt that his points may be low as it seems like I have way way more guns. His Assult squad is in a drop pod so there are more points there

The thread should be named "Why do I keep winning against bad marines lists?"

I mean the 5 assault marines with 3 plasma pistols should set off the alarm straight away

Agreed, the assault marines aren't going to do anything against a mob of boys.

Also, scouts will get eaten up by the AP4 dakkajets and lootas.

Yikes... so I guess that every game, the drop pod comes in very close to your lines, the 5 marines get out, kill maybe 2 or 3 orks ( and possibly 1 marine) and then proceed to get massacred in combat? With only 5 of them they are much better off with jump packs to stay mobile.

So besides a Thunderfire cannon and fixing the assualt marine squad what should he do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flinty: Your exactly right lol and they get slaughterd xP

He also needs something to pop transports and light armor. Preds, either auto/las or auto/HB work. As do rifleman dreads. Typhoon/HB speeders would also fit nicely.

A flyer or two might be nice, and a ADL with a quadgun helps with a number of things.

There are a lot of different ways to build a C:SM list. We can toss together a TAC marine list that is playable, but he might have zero interest in it. What chapter does he play? What unit is his favorite? What aspect of the game appeals to him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does he have more units he's not fielding that we should keep in mind, or what kind of budget are we thinking for getting new stuff?

He plays Ultramarines, he is also planning on having allies, (my phone gets flooded with texts for advice) i belive he is partnering with necrons. Other units he is not using, i know he does have a battle force. as far as a budget goes? Highschool student with no job... so minimal.

Tell him to get a TFC and you will see an instant increase in the difficulty level.

Simply he has no real anti horde and you are a horde. Its like hunting a bear with a BB gun...yep that ain't gunna work boyz.

Ha Ha he does have limited horde power and having 5 scouts smash into a squad of nobs is just to fun for da ladz

hey.........i am the space marine guy......that zammerak is talking about, i have read, your comments etc, and yes, lately i have really been playing more MAGIC than i should have been doing 40k stuff, and my plan now, is well, from reading all your good/bad/bashing comments, i have a plan to maybe put a pause on the necrons, and buy another assault on black reach set just for the marine stuff, and maybe sell zammerak the ork stuff? idk if he wants it, but i'll ask, and YES, andilus....I DO HAVE A THUNDERFIRE CANNON! its just under construction, its the metal model, and like i said before, lately, i have been doing more magic than 40k , and have not been doing much modelling, etc., so, hopefully if i remember my password....i will come back and return to see all your comments, btw, thanks for the info, etc, well, the stuff that was actually helpful. if you want a full army list, please ask later, since zammerak DID, miss a few things, but thats ok, i will put up a full list at some point.

When I play my orks against space marines one thing I hate to see are drop pods in my opponents list. Stern guard or something else with combi meltas plus a dread with flamer dropping right in my ranks first turn can really rune my game.

Edit: Ally in blood angels to make it a blender dred with a flamer, flame the lootas and the orks will have a hard time with it might buy your dropped marines another turn or two.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Short answer: it's easy to lose with space marines in 6th edition.

For specifics, see Andilus's post.

It is... but against Orks? It's not like they're facing off against a triple-drake list, Space Marines and Orks are both fairly mid-tier.

zammerak wrote:He plays Ultramarines, he is also planning on having allies, (my phone gets flooded with texts for advice) i belive he is partnering with necrons. Other units he is not using, i know he does have a battle force. as far as a budget goes? Highschool student with no job... so minimal.

Tell him to wait a week, and look into possibly partnering with the Tau. I suspect the Librarian's buffs will do some pretty awesome things to the Tau's long-range shooting; which perfectly fills a very problematic gap in his army.

As a new player he needs to learn move away from such a top-heavy focus in his lists and just start trimming bloat and putting boots on the ground. You've got something like 75 (?) models in a 1500 point game, even a straight codex Ultramarines list can put enough bodies on the ground to rival the way your Ork list is currently built. If he decides the answer is to actually have necrons or a thunderfire cannon or something then he's going to have the same problem because his concept of why his list is bad is likely deeply flawed.

That SM list is pretty bad IMO

The Assault Marines and the Scouts are literally pointless.....

If he were to add a TFC or 2 and added more TAC marines with Missles, this thread would be the other way around.

The only thing he would have an issue with is the Flyer, and at this point level, could be ignored


A fun list could be:

Librarian GOI/Avenger/Epistolary

10x Sternguard in a Pod

3x ML/Flamer tac squads in Rhinos

2x TFC or a couple Dakka Preds

That would take care of just about everything and wouldn't break the bank financially (Could just convert Tac marines to Sternguard)

Well his name is Orkkilla so he should be winning every game.

He should look into a vindicator

NickTheButcher: Just reading that list makes my boots shake. With flamers and in armor it will be up to my 3 kans to pop that armor by the time i can finally hit them all we will be in turn 3 or 4 at that time the flamers will break my lines

Great advice!

I play marines, mostly as a bike army but I have decent experience with more traditional lists as well. First thing is to get the thunderfire cannon built. It is awesome. Second, if you have the weapons available switch the melta on the dred to something with more dakka like an assault cannon. If you have the money available consider an ADL and a devistator squad (heavy bolters are nice against hoards). Keep the thunderfire cannon and devs behind the ADL with the dev's sarge on the ADL gun. Keep the dred midrange possibly with a tac squad, and the assault marines (if you want to keep using them but I wouldn't ) catch and assault anything that gets close to the ADL. I would drop the scouts in favor of more tac squads. I love scout snipers but you need more bolters to thin out the hoard. Landspeeder typhoons wouldn't be a bad idea either but don't let anything get close to them as they die quickly.

I struggle against marines lately with my orks and i have everything the army has.

Question, is he willing to spend some money? In my experience it is better to unleash lots of low power bullets on orks then high powered shots.. why? Ork armour saves suck big time. boyz have a save of 6 and against any bolt weapon they have effectively no armour save. So ditch las cannons for heavy bolters, plasma weapons for flamers..


My opponent usualy uses Cato sicarius as well.. Usualy a good choice and killy opponent.

Fast attack: 1 squad of 5 assault marines 3 with plasma pistol... Squad needs to be 10 at least or go away,.. also 3 plasma pistols are not allowed. 1 per 5 is and the sarge. So in a 5man squad 2 would be max. A 10 man squad like this can easily kill of a ork choppa squad, and if overwatch doesnt hurt much shoota boyz as well.. Also jump pack chaplain works well with these guys.

IMO, scouts are not ment for CC so lose pistols and swords and give em regular bolters and give 1 a heavy bolter. Or give em all snipers.
He should camp these on an objective and assist at long range.

The dreadnought is ok. keep it out of rokkit range and it should be fine and it can assist wherever needed.

Im not overly fond of walking terminators,.. but if you do, attach the librarian with them or Sicarius. No HQ in thi list should be attached to the tacticals as they will then not fit in the Rhino...

If he is willing to spend some money id suggest another 10 man tactical squad. Give 1 a heavy bolter and the other a flamer. Sarge should keep himself to a bolter or bolt pistol/chainsword or power weapon.

A flyer that can dish out a maximum amount of shots..

A devastator squad. 5 man loadout should be 3 heavy bolters 1 missle launcher sarge storm bolter and sword. If money allows it take another squad like this. Ork armour is usualy weak and str 5 can mass glance them to death. Sometimes even penetrate. But that is why i would add a launcher. for insurance... 3 heavy bolters dish out 9 str 5 ap 4 shots... bye orks!

Land raider redeemer filled with TH/SS terminators hurt orks baaaaaaad on the charge..

So overall,.. dish out a lot of bolter rounds against infantry, ork armour aint impressive keep to heavy bolters and missle launchers. If the orks start to decide to go armour heavy get some lascannons.. Let the orks come to you, they will, they have to... keep to shooting as much as you can and use the assault marines to kill of weakened squad and contest objectives.

remember,.. flamers are killy in overwatch as you WILL hit at least once, which is big for overwatch and you might even hit 3 times... So spray a lot of bullets and see the ork boyz die... Stay out of cc for as long as possible

Nick the butchers list looks painfull IMO... Orks will run away for annuva go later!

I think you're problem, or rather, his, is that you're running a higher end list. Dakkajets and Lootas, specifically. Whereas he is running more fluffy and fun lists. cato is a nice unit but he is sub-par atm. A Librarian is good but with Assault marines, Multimelta dreads and no Flyer defense he is suffering.

Flamers instead of plasma guns would be a start, but smaller squads are just going to get shot off the board with the amount of incoming fire.

On another note, Try playing smaller games until you get the units you need. 1000ish is where I would start just to give the space marine player a chance to not have to run assault marines etc. It would also give the marine player help because there will be less boys to have to kill which will allow him to focus on what unit to kill, how to stop the tide.

Most people I see that play against orks just get overwhelemed the first few games because there is so much stuff on the ork side that they don't know what to shoot at, and many people don't focus fire one unit off the board before they start to work on the next one.