Why do I keep winning against Space Marines?

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**zammerak**

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I struggle against marines lately with my orks and i have everything the army has.

Question, is he willing to spend some money? In my experience it is better to unleash lots of low power bullets on orks then high powered shots.. why? Ork armour saves suck big time. boyz have a save of 6 and against any bolt weapon they have effectively no armour save. So ditch las cannons for heavy bolters, plasma weapons for flamers..

My opponent usualy uses Cato sicarius as well.. Usualy a good choice and killy opponent.

Fast attack: 1 squad of 5 assault marines 3 with plasma pistol... Squad needs to be 10 at least or go away,.. also 3 plasma pistols are not allowed. 1 per 5 is and the sarge. So in a 5man squad 2 would be max. A 10 man squad like this can easily kill of a ork choppa squad, and if overwatch doesnt hurt much shoota boyz as well.. Also jump pack chaplain works well with these guys.

IMO, scouts are not ment for CC so lose pistols and swords and give em regular bolters and give 1 a heavy bolter. Or give em all snipers.
He should camp these on an objective and assist at long range.

The dreadnought is ok. keep it out of rokkit range and it should be fine and it can assist wherever needed.

Im not overly fond of walking terminators,.. but if you do, attach the librarian with them or Sicarius. No HQ in thi list should be attached to the tacticals as they will then not fit in the Rhino...

If he is willing to spend some money id suggest another 10 man tactical squad. Give 1 a heavy bolter and the other a flamer. Sarge should keep himself to a bolter or bolt pistol/chainsword or power weapon.

A flyer that can dish out a maximum amount of shots..

A devastator squad. 5 man loadout should be 3 heavy bolters 1 missle launcher sarge storm bolter and sword. If money allows it take another squad like this. Ork armour is usualy weak and str 5 can mass glance them to death. Sometimes even penetrate. But that is why i would add a launcher. for insurance... 3 heavy bolters dish out 9 str 5 ap 4 shots... bye orks!

Land raider redeemer filled with TH/SS terminators hurt orks baaaaaaad on the charge..

So overall,.. dish out a lot of bolter rounds against infantry, ork armour aint impressive keep to heavy bolters and missle launchers. If the orks start to decide to go armour heavy get some lascannons.. Let the orks come to you, they will, they have to... keep to shooting as much as you can and use the assault marines to kill of weakened squad and contest objectives.

remember,.. flamers are killy in overwatch as you WILL hit at least once, which is big for overwatch and you might even hit 3 times... So spray a lot of bullets and see the ork boyz die... Stay out of cc for as long as possible

Nick the butchers list looks painfull IMO... Orks will run away for annuva go later!

Great advice!

Next time we play we will cut the points down to get a more even game since I have spent alot of time reading the codex and synergizing my list.
The biggest thing I notice when we play is a lack of synergy, my orks are planned out, (who shoots, who crumps and who holds the line) where his SM list is a bunch of small bands with no synergy.

Keep up the good advice!!

**Flinty**

@Orkkiller21 - if you have the drop pod then think about using ita bit differently. If you can pick up another black reach set then that would let you field another 10 marines to go in the pod, and bring yourself up to 10 terminators that you can drop on a locator beacon in turn 2. This would give you an awful lot of mid range dakka, especially if you go for veterans in the pod. You just need to position the pod in such a way that it us difficult for zammerak to kill.

**FerrusFair**

zammerak wrote:
Ok, so a buddy and I play every so often. We play 1500pts he is Space marines and I play wiff da lads (Orks) every time we play I table him without trying and I don’t think it should be this imbalanced. With your expertise what can my friend do with his army/tactics to pose more of a threat?
My List:
Hq war boss with PK TL shoota Boss Pole and cybork body
Hq Big Mek With SAG

Elites: 8 lootas (SAG with the lootas)

Troops: 8 Nobz with HC and a pain boy (warboss with them in a trukk)
2x 20 foot sloggin boyz 2 with big shoota and a nob with PK and Boss Pole.
2 trukk squads each with 11boyz one nob with PK and one Big shotta

Heavy Support: 3 killa kans with RL

Fast Attack: Dakka Jet 3TL Suppa Shootas
Found your first thing. He has no Skyfire in his entire codex (unless you count the Helipotato), which I don't).

His list as I remember it.

Hq: Cato? and some librarian? (I never know because he keeps them in the back field and I take out everything else first)
Nother problem. Cato AND a Librarian (maybe even Tigurius) is way too many points in a 1500 list. He's got no room for boyz 'cause he spent it all on toyz. Cato's not that great in general, and certainly not when he has no squad to run with.

Fast attack: 1 squad of 5 assault marines 3 with plasma pistol
I can't remember if this is a legal assault squad but I don't think it is. Either way, spending half the cost of the squad on single-shot pistols is not a sound strategy. Have him take a flamer or two instead. But really, ASM are not great.

Troops: Whatever comes with the Blackreach set + a rhino
I'm not a big tac squad fan (or a big fan of SM troops in general, which is why I first decided to try a bike army) but the AoBR squad isn't bad as far as kit.
scout sniper squad with 5 scouts
Sniper scouts are mediocre at best unless your opponent is bringing a Monster Mash. Five sniper scouts is too little performance for too many points.
scout squad with pistols and ccw 5 scouts
These guys are too small to do anything, especially against Orks. Plus, the sarge doesn't have any special gear.

Heavy Support: one dreadnaught with multi melta
This thing is okay by me. One dreadnought versus twenty Orks = Yakety Sax time, all the time, every time.

I do not know all his special upgrades and I may have missed some troops.
Any questions please post below.

Thanks

Either you're missing some serious stuff from his list or he's been shortchanging himself on the points. In any case, your friend is awfully shy on killy bits. He needs about twice as many boltguns in that list, plus maybe a few Sternguard for Dat 2+, Dat Ignores Cover, and Dat 30" Range. He needs to spend about 300 points less on HQ and fill out those points with a couple Predators or Vindicators and maybe another Dreadnought. I know Dreads aren't really optimal choices, but I love them too much to ever recommend not taking them.

**orkkiller21**

ty to all, and yes, I most likely am going to get a vindicator or whirlwind or some tank soon, or heavier stuff. But at the moment, i have my eye set on another assault on black reach for what it can get me, but also, a few other things, but like that 1 guy said.....i am not really a new player, i started out with the lotr sbg, but nobody wanted to play it, sadly, so i had to switch over to 40k and that was a couple years ago? i think.... so im not BRAND NEW, but new to probably more of the competitive side of 40k, i guess you could say, and yes, the thunderfire cannon is under construction, and should be finished soon, but then must be painted, etc.

**ClassicCarraway**

It really sounds like you are shorting yourself by a good 200-300 points. If Orks are your primary opponent, whirlwinds are nice, cheap units to take to thin those big mobs of boyz. A Landraider Crusader or Redeemer loaded with termies or a Captain w/full command squad might be a good option too. Orks likely won't be able to scratch it, and at close range, it will cause all sorts of havoc.

Also, don't underestimate scouts, but you need to put them in groups of ten, don't break them up. They are not tough enough to go with combat squads. If using them as close combat scouts, don't skimp on the sgt and pick your targets carefully. If using them as snipers, be sure to put a missile launcher in the unit, and focus on the elite units for those lucky rending sniper shots. and include Telion.

Finally, invest in a flyer. The Stormtalon is ugly, but its effective, versatile, and cost efficient.

**amanita**

As said earlier, it'd be nice to swap that multi-melta on the dread for something with more shooting or better range. Unless the orks have battle wagons that multi-melta is kind of a waste.

I like speeders and attack bikes for killing boyz because you can shoot and scoot, making it harder for the orks to reach you. Yes, and finish that thunderfire cannon!

**Commander_Nightflier**

I never leave home with out at least 2 full tac squads at 1500, and i usually have 3,

Assault squads are alright as long as they dont get shot down first,

lose the scouts.

I have recently learned that i dont have enough heavy support. preds are what im trying (i see a lot of tanks in my local meta), TFC i havent tryed but looks absolutly amazing on paper. Devastators are another option.

The storm talon for some cheep flyer action.

There is a lot you can do with marines as long as you bring the basics, which is plenty of troops, some mobility, and some heavy support. and i agree with Ruphi, start small and work your way up. and dont get another Assualt on black reach. the only good think for marines in there is the tac marines. id get another(?) battle force pack first or just by stuff peice meal. find your fluff. get the basics, start working toward a battle company with support like im sure you want to do. all will be good.

**DAaddict**

Knowing your are facing orks... spam heavy bolters and just maintain one small counter attack unit... Properly done, everything in the orky list will be a smoking wreck.

**FrozenMarine**

Consider investing into extra Whirlwinds. Two WW paired with a TFC should wreck someones day. Also, for some trolltacular maneuvers, consider investing into an Ironclad Dreadnought arriving via Lucius-Pattern Drop Pod. Effective? Maybe. Hilarious? Yes. Every. Single. Time.

**BolterUnlimited**

orkkiller21 wrote:
ty to all, and yes, I most likely am going to get a vindicator or whirlwind or some tank soon, or heavier stuff. But at the moment, i have my eye set on another assault on black reach for what it can get me, but also, a few other things, but like that 1 guy said.....i am not really a new player, i started out with the lotr sbg, but nobody wanted to play it, sadly, so i had to switch over to 40k and that was a couple years ago? i think.... so im not BRAND NEW, but new to probably more of the competitive side of 40k, i guess you could say, and yes, the thunderfire cannon is under construction, and should be finished soon, but then must be painted, etc.

What you need to do, my friend, is take a drop pod with a Deathwind missile launcher. Stick Mr. Dreadnought into it, and you have death... death everywhere.

Cato Sicarius isn't the best option without his command squad. You might be better of taking a regular captian- or take the standard Chapter Master HQ. S10, AP1 large blast (Orbital Bombardment)? That will kill horde armies. And I mean utterly destroy them. On turn one, blst him with the bombardment. Kill them all.

If you ever get into close combat with the orks, choose to fail the first morale check you are called upon to take, and get the heck out of there! You do not CC with orks. Nope. He'll win through sheer number of attacks. If the ors assault you, they get 4 attacks turn one if they are slugga boyz.

My humble opinion. More coming later.

**DAaddict**

Sternguard:

At 30" fire the S4 AP4 rounds

At anything closer dump the 2+ hellfire rounds... and keep backing up.'

Remove the trucks and bikes and you have it pretty well covered.

**zammerak**

One thing we were kicking around is splitting an AOBR set so he would get the tac squad and more termies plus I would get more ladz! Our other thought would be to get a DV set since I also have a Chaos army and we could convert the angels to marines giving him 3 bikes, more termies and a tac squad.

**FerrusFair**

BolterUnlimited wrote:

What you need to do, my friend, is take a drop pod with a Deathwind missile launcher. Stick Mr. Dreadnought into it, and you have death... death everywhere.

Cato Sicarius isn't the best option without his command squad. You might be better of taking a regular captian- or take the standard Chapter Master HQ. S10, AP1 large blast (Orbital Bombardment)? That will kill horde armies. And I mean utterly destroy them. On turn one, blst him with the bombardment. Kill them all.

If you ever get into close combat with the orks, choose to fail the first morale check you are called upon to take, and get the heck out of there! You do not CC with orks. Nope. He'll win through sheer number of attacks. If the ors assault you, they get 4 attacks turn one if they are slugga boyz.

My humble opinion. More coming later.

The captains in general are not great choices. I would recommend a Divination librarian or a Gate librarian.

Deathwinds aren't bad against orks but you want to be careful - with only one drop pod you run the risk of overextending yourself and losing the dread early. You should look into switching the dread's kit for assault cannon and heavy flamer. that's a nice versatile kit that doesn't sacrifice your cc capabilities.

**FrozenMarine**

Space Marines can't take Divination as a psychic tree.

**FerrusFair**

FrozenMarine wrote:
Space Marines can't take Divination as a psychic tree.

Good call. I was thinking of the new Dark Angels. Telekinesis then.

**McNinja**

zammerak wrote:
Ok, so a buddy and I play every so often. We play 1500pts he is Space marines and I play wiff da lads (Orks) every time we play I table him without trying and I don’t think it should be this imbalanced. With your expertise what can my friend do with his army/tactics to pose more of a threat?
My List:
Hq war boss with PK TL shoota Boss Pole and cybork body
Hq Big Mek With SAG

Elites: 8 lootas (SAG with the lootas)

Troops: 8 Nobz with HC and a pain boy (warboss with them in a trukk)
2x 20 foot sloggin boyz 2 with big shoota and a nob with PK and Boss Pole.
2 trukk squads each with 11boyz one nob with PK and one Big shotta

Heavy Support: 3 killa kans with RL

Fast Attack: Dakka Jet 3TL Suppa Shootas

His list as I remember it.

Hq: Cato? and some librarian? (I never know because he keeps them in the back field and I take out everything aelse first)

Fast attack: 1 squad of 5 assault marines 3 with plasma pistol

Troops: Whatever comes with the Blackreach set + a rhino
scout sniper squad with 5 scouts
scout squad with pistols and ccw 5 scouts

Heavy Support: one dreadnaught with multi melta

I do not know all his special upgrades and I may have missed some troops.
Any questions please post below.

Thanks

Honestly, he's losing because his list stinks. Bad.

Librarians are good, but if he's using Tigirus, that's bad. Cato is "eh."

Assault Marines haven't been good since the codex came out. Especially when taken in small 5 man units. The 3 PPs helps nothing against a horde like Orks. Flamers are far better, and even then they can be gained on different units for far cheaper.

I hope he's using tactical marines with a missile launcher and a flamer.

Sniper scouts can hold and objective well enough but not well enough to survive an Ork charge. He's needs 10, a ML, and Telion.

CCW scouts are... just not good. Like Assault marines. Drop these for maxing out the snipers.

Tell him to get more tactical marines with either a plasma cannon or ML.

The Single dreadnought with a MM is the opposite of good, except if Vulkan is taken, and even then it's only good against vehicles. Orks are not vehicles. The dude needs a ML/TL AC on one arm and an Assault Cannon on the other. Then he needs two more Dreadnoughts.

Dakka predators (AC turret HB sponsons) are great against Orks and pretty cheap.

Devastators with all Missile Launchers or heavy Bolters, or even Plasma Cannons are great against Orks.

Basically, he wants: Things that fire a lot (Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters) or blasts (missile launchers, plasma cannons), or templates (flamers/h. flamers/flamestorm cannons).

**FerrusFair**

I respectfully disagree with your last point. Codex SM devastators are never almost good enough. You want missiles? Buy Land Speeders. You want heavy bolters? Get a couple preds. Devas combine immobility with expensive dakka and space marine durability.

As to assault marines with flamers, an almost universally better choice would be two flamers on a three-man bike squad (because they're harder, better, faster, stronger, and also cheaper for your dakka).

**McNinja**

FerrusFair wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your last point. Codex SM devastators are never almost good enough. You want missiles? Buy Land Speeders. You want heavy bolters? Get a couple preds. Devas combine immobility with expensive dakka and space marine durability.

As to assault marines with flamers, an almost universally better choice would be two flamers on a three-man bike squad (because they're harder, better, faster, stronger, and also cheaper for your dakka).

Totally forgot about Land Speeders. They also can provide dual heavy flamers, which is awesome with Vulkan. There's also Stormtalons with Assault Cannons and Skyhammer Missiles/Heavy Bolters.

**zammerak**

With all the Flamers coming my way my boys are going to get chewed

Thats alot of hot dakka! keep the coments rolling, I am learning alot about list building and counter list building

**McNinja**

There's also Ironclads with HFs, Assault cannon Dreads with a HF in a drop pod, HF terminators in a DP, Scouts with hellfire HB, Sternguard with dragonfire rounds and combi-flamers, stormravens with missiles and plasma, the Fortress of LOLdemption, Quad-guns (effective against ground transports), and Thunderfire Cannons.

Basically, his list could have:

Vulkan

Ironclad in Drop Pod (DP) with HFs
Assault Cannon/HF dread in DP
Dual TL AutoCan dread

10 scouts with ML, Snipers, telion
10 tacs with ML, flamer, combi-flamer
10 tacs with ML, flamer, combi-flamer

Stormtalon w/ AssCan, Skyhammer
Stormraven w/ plasma

Thunderfire Cannon x2
Predator with HB sponsons and AC turret

**zammerak**

Time to throw a Curve ball in, I also have a CSM army appx 1k points, with chosen, cultests, warp talons, and a daemon prince with wings and a black mace, given this list how much would his list have to change?

**orkkiller21**

I am currently looking into a few options for upgradnig my army, but.....the big question is..... should i use the dark angel stuff from the DV set, and convert it to sm stuff? OR just buy or split an assault on black reach set which i would get more termi's from, just like the assault on black reach set, and another tac squad just like the assault on black reach set. If i were to go with the DV set, i would get the bikers, which would add a couple hit and run capabilities, AND, another librarian, which i could use to run 2 librarians in my army, to sit and smite my opponents stuff with. but if i go with the assault on black reach set, i would just get another dreadnought, which is nice, but, would i want more speed? or another big armored unit? and i might be getting a couple tanks, if i find a fun one of course, maybe 2 predators? a pred. and a whirlwind? or a landraider? if possible.....would gw, or any other place havethe sm MEGAFORCE? also..........i was thinking of adding in marneus calgar........hmmmmmmmm......

Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry about that termi part, i meant there was termi's also in the DV set, just like the assault on black reach set, same with the tac squad

**cannoncocker**

McNinja wrote:
There's also Ironclads with HFs, Assault cannon Dreads with a HF in a drop pod, HF terminators in a DP, Scouts with hellfire HB, Sternguard with dragonfire rounds and combi-flamers, stormravens with missiles and plasma, the Fortress of LOLdemption, Quad-guns (effective against ground transports), and Thunderfire Cannons.

Basically, his list could have:

Vulkan

Ironclad in Drop Pod (DP) with HFs
Assault Cannon/HF dread in DP
Dual TL AutoCan dread

10 scouts with ML, Snipers, telion
10 tacs with ML, flamer, combi-flamer
10 tacs with ML, flamer, combi-flamer

Stormtalon w/ AssCan, Skyhammer
Stormraven w/ plasma

Thunderfire Cannon x2
Predator with HB sponsons and AC turret

I like McNinja's listing for the Space Marines. Granted I have BA , but I play against my friend who is Imperial Fist. Any way DP Dreadnought is always a risk, but the benefits can be great too. I have my Furioso Dread drop pod, then do some damage and distract my friend. Yes I am planning on getting another drop pod for my Multi-melta dread. Then you move troops up without having to worry about getting shot up to much. Get to that medium range then fire away. As always the Dice Gods can be unforgiving (for both sides), but I have been pretty successfu so far. I am also a fan of the Vindicator too. Just my two cent... Good Luck

**orkkiller21**

im posting this to see if my avatar shows up....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and it does! yes!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
thanks cannoncocker, i will keep that in mind....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well! gooooooood night everyone! talk to y'all later! and hopefully get more great advice!

**McNinja**

zammerak wrote:
One thing we were kicking around is splitting an AOBR set so he would get the tac squad and more termies plus I would get more ladz! Our other thought would be to get a DV set since I also have a Chaos army and we could convert the angels to marines giving him 3 bikes, more termies and a tac squad.

Well, if you want Bikes, you need more than 3. Against Orks, you really want to be shooting then down so you can engage as few as possible in CC.

With Terminators, you can stick 5 in a DP and have one with an AssCan or Cyclone (probably the better investment, since Rending only really affects the biggest Orks/vehicles). A Heavy Flamer would prevent too much unwanted CC action if you land close to a unit of Boyz.

But you do need more Tacticals.

**Deadshot**

SM Terminators can't get in Drop Pods.

**Ifurita**

you could also increase his point size by 250 points until the games get closer.

**Evileyes**

Wasted point's. 3 plasma pistols on an assault marine squad (If thats even legal) is a huge amount of points for a unit that will just evaporate. 2 Hq's, one of which is allready expencive as it is, is just a waste of points for space marines at this point level.

In short, too many point's spent, on too few models. Need's less spending points, and more actual models on the table.

**DAaddict**

Evileyes wrote:
Wasted point's. 3 plasma pistols on an assault marine squad (If thats even legal) is a huge amount of points for a unit that will just evaporate. 2 Hq's, one of which is allready expencive as it is, is just a waste of points for space marines at this point level.

In short, too many point's spent, on too few models. Need's less spending points, and more actual models on the table.

3 PP is legal - 2 for the squad and 1 for the vet sgt. It is okay for anti-tank but against orks I would rather pocket 25 points and take 2 flamers and a combi-flamer... Assault marines are very fluffy but you are putting yourself behind the 8 ball from a competitive standpoint. I would only want it in a 10-man squad with a jump pack chaplain and that is a big commitment in points and HQ slot.

If you get the DV box, I would remember they have a lot of DA iconography... Perhaps the best would be to start a small DA ally unit out of 1 tactical + 1 Librarian (divination) Think this would be rather disgusting.

**McNinja**

Deadshot wrote:
SM Terminators can't get in Drop Pods.

Crap, you're right. Well, they can still deep Strike, at least. With bikes and a teleport homer, this could be great.