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I'm thinking of running Mephiston in my 1500 Ravenwing list, what are peoples experiences with him in 6th?

His role will be a big monster hunter and MEQ wrecker, freeing up my Black Knights to do other things. He's also enough of a threat to draw fire off my bikers, and with a Techmarine giving him a 4++ quite survivable.

Mephiston plus a troop choice will be a huge chunk of your 1500 point Ravenwing list. Not worth it IMO especally with Meph's problems:ap3, no invuln, no IC, delivery method.

Not hugely, I'm dropping the Land Raider Crusader with Banner Command Squad inside for him. While extremely hard to kill,I find having 165 points sitting inside doing nothing
extremely points inefficient, and whatever firepower not coming the way of the Land Raider is hitting my bikes instead. The LRC is also 260 points of unscoring which cannot contest, can die in a single shot, and is useful in only one phase in my turn, i.e. shooting.

Ravenwing shooting with the banner, while strong, is still overly reliant on a single phase. Optimising my list for all phases is probably better.

Mephiston makes my list both strong in assault and shooting.

The BA drop pod with assault squad will also be something the Ravenwing sorely need, which is reliable turn one anti-vehicle melta. Sure, it's quite an expensive unit to suicide, but having bikes do it is worse (unreliable with one shot, can't get 2d6 on turn 1, wasting salvo fire, suiciding a valuable scoring bike unit). The squad and pod can block LOS and movement, and soak fire which would be directed at my bikes.

Mephiston, on the other hand, is useful in three (psychic defence, Biomancy if the situation calls for it, and assault.) He can tie up units in assault and with I7, extremely effective for running squads down in Sweeping (the best way to kill units).

The list I run mitigates Meph's weaknesses: A PFG gives him a 4++ invuln, any TEQs will die horrible deaths to my three Black Knight squads, and the fact he can be shot at will hopefully draw some fire off my bikers. He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

His role in the list is to pick off the units my Black Knights and Sammael can't handle; which while admittedly rare include things like Dreadknights and Monstrous Creatures, especially Greater Daemons, which are huge threats to my army I find wasting my firepower on quite inefficient. Mephiston stacks up quite well against any Greater Daemon assuming doesn't get charged (It's quite easy to bubble wrap a single model) as he just needs to get one attack through, and he eats Tervigons and non-Iron Armed Flyrants for breakfast.

at 1850 I'd just take two Mortis Contemptors, but at 1500 no one really seems to bring flyers, only FMCs.

Don't switch out Mephiston's powers for BRB ones, he only gets to switch out for 2. Furthermore, without his generic combo, he's left being very weak on the attack, not to mention very slow.

Switching to Biomancy would be mostly situational; when facing assault armies that come to you, you don't really need the mobility but you could definitely use Enfeeble or Iron Arm.

He's still mastery level three, so he'd get to debuff, witchfire, and then force weapon. Still very strong. Losing the Str 10 hurts, but again it's not hugely important against some enemies.

He's still a beatstick, just be very aware of his AP3 weapon. He dominates MEQ but not better CC units. As mentioned, keep his standard powers cos for some silly reason he only gets 2 when he switches.

It's quite uniform actually, I don't think Marine psykers are meant to be rolling more than two. Njal knows 6 codex but rolls two, Ezekiel is M3 but rolls two. Severin Loth, on the other hand, is a special flower, but FW is FW.

Anything in TEQ should never get the charge off, considering he moves twice as fast and I can bubble wrap. Only thing he lacks is Hit and Run, however.

Alternatively, I could run six units of Black Knights. Hmm. Mephiston is cheaper in terms of money

Mephiston used to be a bully; now even more so. He'll completely destroy your average grunts, but as soon as he's confronted with a 2+ save or an AP2 weapon, he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

This sounds like a pretty good combo, actually. Everyone's harping on about his inability to take out TEQs but they're forgetting two things:

1) Both he and the Ravenwing are very manoeuvrable.
2) You already have fantastic AP2 ability in Sammael and the Knights.

If you're looking at Mephiston in a Ravenwing list and moaning about TEQ's? You're missing the point.

That said, you shouldn't plan your entire game around him as he IS just one man and can get tarpitted by big mobs and the like. Use him to counter any immediate threats to your other units, or counter-assault if your bikes get unexpectedly stuck in assault.

 tomjoad wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

This is patently false. Did you not read any of my posts? Shadow in the Warp has a pitiful 12" range. Eldar is a slightly different proposition, but still extremely rare. Puppies will lose their schtick when the next codex comes out. Mephiston provides a 4+ deny the witch roll against the most common psyker, Librarians. He will never get tarpitted because I'm playing Ravenwing, and I decide where and when combats occur. If people are shooting at him, they are not shooting at my bikes, which is good. The reason I'm swapping out the LRC is a) Doesn't Score or contest b) Only useful in the Shooting phase c) can't take on FMCs.

Be careful of unfavorable matchups in assault as well.
Most enemy ICs with a 2+ save and an AP2 high STR weapon will cause issues.

Provided you just skirt around those assaults and beat face on the rest of the army, you should be OK

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

This is patently false. Did you not read any of my posts? Shadow in the Warp has a pitiful 12" range. Eldar is a slightly different proposition, but still extremely rare. Puppies will lose their schtick when the next codex comes out. Mephiston provides a 4+ deny the witch roll against the most common psyker, Librarians. He will never get tarpitted because I'm playing Ravenwing, and I decide where and when combats occur. If people are shooting at him, they are not shooting at my bikes, which is good. The reason I'm swapping out the LRC is a) Doesn't Score or contest b) Only useful in the Shooting phase c) can't take on FMCs.

If this is your disposition, why bother posting? You are very hostile to people who disagree with you. If you don't care to hear other opinions, don't ask questions or engage debate.

A) He provides nothing against anything from Biomancy, Divination or most Codex powers. You only get to Deny Maledictions or Witchfire, which are far less common or worrisome, and he only provides a 6" bubble of protection anyway.

B) SitW only has a 12" range, but Mephiston's main goal is to get into combat. Tyranids won't usually be shutting down Wings, but they will be able to affect his CC powers. Also, if you see a non-bubble wrapped Tervigon, congrats. Maybe you should expect them to be surrounded by fearless wound soaking Gaunts, though.

C) Who cares when or if Rune Priests will lose their 4+ nullifications? They have it NOW, and that's what matters. That's what is being discussed. Not some assumed reality that is at least a year away.

D) If you are so positive that you and only you decide when are where combats happen, then have at it. The reality is that your opponents have far more agency than you give them credit for. You can be counter charged, you can have your target bubble wrapped, you can win a combat and get stuck out in the open for a turn. These things happen all the time; and truly, 12" isn't THAT far or impressive.

Mephiston is a rip off for 250 pts in 6th edition. Use him at your own peril.

He's still a beatstick, just be very aware of his AP3 weapon. He dominates MEQ but not better CC units. As mentioned, keep his standard powers cos for some silly reason he only gets 2 when he switches.

Mephiston is a rip off for 250 pts in 6th edition. Use him at your own peril.

People act like he was able to charge big, bad assault units or 2+ save models in the first place. The truth is that he was never able to. Meph was beat down hard by SS TH Termies in 5th, just as he is in 6th.

He has always been a character that has been more of a scalpel. People who think "he sucks" are those who see the juicy statline and think that they can just run Meph into another army without consequence.

Play him intelligently, and he is still a nice character. He provides self-contained counter attack for 250 points. Not bad at all, just not a world-beater.

Yes, he was able to in 5th. What game were you people playing in 5th? It was SS/TH termies he couldn't fight. But shooty terminators, oblits, all got denied their 2+ save and were just slaughtered by weight of wounds vs a 5++ save.

He had the old psychic hood in 5th, which made him a serious asset, as it was very hard to get him off the table. That's gone too, now. AND he has no utility with divination because he can't join units. If he could just join a unit, I'd use him as a divination monkey for sure. BUT he is nerfed in all these areas. He sucks, and all the hand waving and rationalizing won't change it.

Yes, he was able to in 5th. What game were you people playing in 5th? It was SS/TH termies he couldn't fight. But shooty terminators, oblits, all got denied their 2+ save and were just slaughtered by weight of wounds vs a 5++ save.

What kind of opponents were you playing against in 5th that were using Tactical Terminators? Oblits were pretty much the only ranged AT for CSM, so players had to target them long before Meph got there. And throwing Meph into 2-3 Oblits was a death sentence the next turn, as the other Oblit units could then fire TL plasma at him.

He had the old psychic hood in 5th, which made him a serious asset, as it was very hard to get him off the table. That's gone too, now. AND he has no utility with divination because he can't join units. If he could just join a unit, I'd use him as a divination monkey for sure. BUT he is nerfed in all these areas. He sucks, and all the hand waving and rationalizing won't change it.

No one except Wolves have a hood like that now. Get over it. It isn't like that is brought up as a negative to regular Librarians--why is it exclusively or relevant here? He will normally have a 4+ DTW anyway.

Why would you use him as a "Divination monkey?" Just take a regular Libby for that (or ally in a LV 2 DA one on the cheap). It just seems like bad ideas all around here.

There is no "hand waving" or "rationalizing"--Meph has a place. Players can still use him effectively. He is a T6, 5 wound, super small character with a 2+ save that moves 12". If you are smart, he will easily be worth his points. MEQ still fear him. He is still good counter assault for shooting lists. Is he a "must take"? Absolutely not. Then again, he never was.

 JGrand wrote:

He had the old psychic hood in 5th, which made him a serious asset, as it was very hard to get him off the table. That's gone too, now. AND he has no utility with divination because he can't join units. If he could just join a unit, I'd use him as a divination monkey for sure. BUT he is nerfed in all these areas. He sucks, and all the hand waving and rationalizing won't change it.

No one except Wolves have a hood like that now. Get over it. It isn't like that is brought up as a negative to regular Librarians--why is it exclusively or relevant here? He will normally have a 4+ DTW anyway.

Why would you use him as a "Divination monkey?" Just take a regular Libby for that (or ally in a LV 2 DA one on the cheap). It just seems like bad ideas all around here.

There is no "hand waving" or "rationalizing"--Meph has a place. Players can still use him effectively. He is a T6, 5 wound, super small character with a 2+ save that moves 12". If you are smart, he will easily be worth his points. MEQ still fear him. He is still good counter assault for shooting lists. Is he a "must take"? Absolutely not. Then again, he never was.

He's too damn expensive for such a fragile character too be honest... but then again, with those stats he wouldn't be reasonable for anything less. Ward hurt the BA quite a bit in that respect, making a lot of really ridiculous units but costing them in response. However, the army as a whole coheres far weaker than it did in 5th.

Mephiston was the go-to BA HQ in 5th.

I don't know, I killed plenty of oblits with Mephiston, and didn't have any trouble get shot at. Maybe because they were trying to stop ASM squads that still mattered in 5th. The ASM nerf for BA has had a cascade effect.

The psychic hood is more relevant to Mephy because he was a hood in 5th that was hard to get rid of. Now that it is a non-sequitur, that is another piece of utility he lost.

The regular libbies are there to be force multipliers, not beat sticks. They are less likely to be in 5th ed psychic hood range.

If Mephiston could join units, he would be great as a divination monkey. He could suck up challenges, use two powers, and still turn on his force weapon. And plasma could be LoS onto FNP flunkies.

I simply don't see how to get anywhere close to 250 pts of utility out of him in 6th.

Honestly, even if he was an IC I wouldn't be sold on him. Majority toughness would make him that much easier to start putting wounds on him and any psyker at that price is going to be tough to sell me on since their main utility has several ways to get countered. If 1/2 of his powers get nullified v Eldar and SW, I can't imagine him being worth what he costs.

I should add, I'd certainly TRY him if he was an IC, but I suspect I'd come to the same conclusion on him as I did on Death Company: when they fail, they are so expensive that your army is in a deep hole right off the bat.

True, his being an IC would just make me *consider* fielding him. But the toughness nerf would suck hard. He's just another in a long line of 6th ed BA victims.

The bottom line is that there are now many more efficient ways to scare meqs. Meqs are honestly only a consideration now because of commonality. I don't think they are even that great anymore, in general, due to lack of body count and lack of specialization.

If this is your disposition, why bother posting? You are very hostile to people who disagree with you. If you don't care to hear other opinions, don't ask questions or engage debate.

A) He provides nothing against anything from Biomancy, Divination or most Codex powers. You only get to Deny Maledictions or Witchfire, which are far less common or worrisome, and he only provides a 6" bubble of protection anyway.

B) SitW only has a 12" range, but Mephiston's main goal is to get into combat. Tyranids won't usually be shutting down Wings, but they will be able to affect his CC powers. Also, if you see a non-bubble wrapped Tervigon, congrats. Maybe you should expect them to be surrounded by fearless wound soaking Gaunts, though.

C) Who cares when or if Rune Priests will lose their 4+ nullifications? They have it NOW, and that's what matters. That's what is being discussed. Not some assumed reality that is at least a year away.

D) If you are so positive that you and only you decide when are where combats happen, then have at it. The reality is that your opponents have far more agency than you give them credit for. You can be counter charged, you can have your target bubble wrapped, you can win a combat and get stuck out in the open for a turn. These things happen all the time; and truly, 12" isn't THAT far or impressive.

I called you out because you clearly didn't read any of my previous reasons for using Mephiston. My Ravenwing has absolutely no problems dealing with most Eldar (rare) SW (not so rare) and Tyranids (almost non existent). Mephiston is there to optimise the list for Greater Daemon and FMC protection, and the side benefits are being extremely effective against things like Tervigons and to provide a reliable Str 10 cc attack in conjunction with RWGLs -1 T for instant death.

Have you played against a RW list before? A truly scary, optimised, 100 bolter shot in turn one list? Trust me, we do the dictating where and when combat happens.

In any case, suggest alternatives, not just negatives. I can run Rune Priests on Bikes.... but they aren't nearly as huge a threat as Mephi is. He's the equivalent of TombKing's 355 point Tzeentch Daemon Prince- looks bad on paper, absolutely wrecks face in-game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
True, his being an IC would just make me *consider* fielding him. But the toughness nerf would suck hard. He's just another in a long line of 6th ed BA victims.

The bottom line is that there are now many more efficient ways to scare meqs. Meqs are honestly only a consideration now because of commonality. I don't think they are even that great anymore, in general, due to lack of body count and lack of specialization.

I agree MEQs in general, or Tac marines, are pretty terrible now considering the meta. Mephiston isn't here to scare tac marines; tac marines are not a threat to the list. He's there to deal with FMCs and Dreadknights, both of which are very prevalent in my meta, and free up my Black Knights to do other things like... killing tac marines.

wait a minute, you use an allied 250 point mini in a 1500 point envirnment? Just how bad do you think Dark Angels are?

I've put you on ignore, SoloFalcon, since you have never contributed anything useful to a discussion and I doubt will ever.

so sorry, Captain Unrealistic, I was merely wondering how you get a Blood Angels character into a Dark Angels army...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yup. figures. Can't answer a simple question in order to clarify a puzzling topic...

i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

If it's FMC you care about, a stormraven is cheaper and probably better at dealing with them. The FMC can always avoid Mephiston because, well, it's a flier.

And I would hesitate spend 250 pts on a single model at the 1500 pt level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

He's not fragile per se, he just doesn't bring much to the table for his point cost. Doesn't provide psychic defense, can't crack 2+ armor, subject to ID, can't buff units with divination. What exactly DOES he do, then? Kill meqs? Shoota boyz can do that.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Be careful of unfavorable matchups in assault as well.
Most enemy ICs with a 2+ save and an AP2 high STR weapon will cause issues.

Provided you just skirt around those assaults and beat face on the rest of the army, you should be OK

@ the OP +1 This

Also
He's fantastic at wrecking heavy support -
he's only one model, so he hides well.
He has a psychic jump pack so he's fast and should be able to avoid AP2 high strength characters.
He can make himself strength 10 for wrecking vehicles.
He's T6 so He can't be instant killed by shooting (short of apoc d-weaponry)
He's I7 so even if you do get into cc with a hard character, he'll probably go first. With str 10 and a force weapon.

I've seen him wreck other armies entire back line - and if they keep stuff back to deal with him, they aren't attacking you with it and he can just go kill something else.

He's a good character - as long as you pay attention to any ap2, 2+ opponants.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

And I would hesitate spend 250 pts on a single model at the 1500 pt level.

I also agree with this - but it's your choice

Mephiston was the go-to BA HQ in 5th.

Depends. I saw plenty of good lists that just used a Libby or two. I also think the Sanguinor had a place.

I don't know, I killed plenty of oblits with Mephiston, and didn't have any trouble get shot at. Maybe because they were trying to stop ASM squads that still mattered in 5th. The ASM nerf for BA has had a cascade effect.

While I don't love Assault Marines, I also think that they can still be used to decent effect. The problems they have now are largely the same as they had then--limited shooting so they struggle with hordes, and they get beaten down by dedicated CC units. But this is a bit off topic.

In general, I found that opponents usually ran Meph into combat, killed a squad, and then died because he was out in the open. This is the reason why people cried that he was "trash." He isn't an "insta-win" character, but people see the stats and think so. He has always been a scalpel that takes good play.

The psychic hood is more relevant to Mephy because he was a hood in 5th that was hard to get rid of. Now that it is a non-sequitur, that is another piece of utility he lost.

I don't see why this is exclusive to Meph. Libbies also lost the ranged hood. Meph is ML 3, so he has a great DTW roll, pretty much all you can ask for now.

The regular libbies are there to be force multipliers, not beat sticks. They are less likely to be in 5th ed psychic hood range.

Sure, all Libbies got nerfed. It sucks, get over it or play SW or Eldar.

If Mephiston could join units, he would be great as a divination monkey. He could suck up challenges, use two powers, and still turn on his force weapon. And plasma could be LoS onto FNP flunkies.

Yup, this is nice wish listing. It would have always been nice if he was an IC. He isn't. However, he is a Marine sized character with 5 wounds, toughness 6, and a 2+ save. He moves 12" and jumps over terrain. Reaching combat should be easy enough if you play with adequate terrain.

I simply don't see how to get anywhere close to 250 pts of utility out of him in 6th.

Say I want to make a BA list. I'll probably ally in some IG, because we are making a competitive Marine list after all. Let's take:

Lord Commisar-70
PCS-30
40 Guard blob, 4 axes-240
Vendetta-130
Griffon-75

Meph-250
4x10 Assault Marines, 2 melta, 1 power axe
1 Priest w Jump Pack

Aegis-50

Total: 1820 (play with 30 points)

I've got 45 Guardsmen and a character, some anti blob/hoard in the Griffon, anti-Drake with the Vendetta, 40 jump MEQ, and an Aegis. What Meph adds is some decent counter-attack. There are units that he can take on that the MEQ and GEQ either can't, or don't want to.

Obviously, this is one example/list. I'm also not saying that Meph is necessarily the best choice here. However, to say that he has "no utility/value" is ridiculous.

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

The problem is that he has no way to deal with 2+ saves, and dies to AP1&2 weapons with ease. There are also certain combat characters which can just own him, and as a result he's really only any good for hunting down scoring units to bully.