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Is that another group Chris?.

I will admit that with my list, 3 DP's and a LoC hitting your lines after its been battered by lots of shooting is hard, in the game the other week against Lyall, half my army took down his bloodthirster warlord in one shooting phase so I can kick out a lot of dice with my usual 1750 list.

I also run BA's, and have only run mephy in a few games, my go to choice is a normal libby with JP and a sang priest, mainly to buff the assault squad they are with which makes them pretty mean, against normal stats (i.e MEQ) they are hitting on 4's re rolling and wounding on 3's with 3 attacks each with up to 12 dudes (9 assault marines at 3 each = 27 sarg at 4, sang priest ws5 at 4 and libby at 4 equals 39 attacks on the charge for a unhurt squad).

Anyway, that is why I dont usually take meph, the few times I have run him he has walked through huron blackheart and his squad and killed a lot of nids (namely nid warriors, 3 wounds a piece my arse.... ha) and one game while he had iron arm and warp speed, in a 4k point game he was so darn slow everything run away from him (playing chaos, go figure!)

I do love the dude, but its a bit points investment, and against a BT I doubt he would last one turn my DP didnt even with warp speed.

Mephiston will not save you from that list. Loyalist marines have to shoot that list. If you can't cripple it by shooting, you've probably lost.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What are you going to do when two Bloodthirsters and three flying Daemon Princes hit your gunline then? Roll into a ball and cry?

Because there is a player in my group which runs this.

I would have spent 100 points on a librarian as my HQ and used the remaining 150 to bolster my shooting. Razorbacks can move 12" and fire everything, Baals are great, yada yada yada. Being able to keep moving every turn the way meched up BAs can SHOULD, hopefully, minimize the damage a FMC can do in a given game. Honestly, if you can't keep your tanks safe from FMCs given that much movement, I don't see how you're going to guarantee Mephiston being on hand to either receive a charge or to counter-charge.

I don't have any experience with FMCs, unfortunately, but how many points are left for troops when that many flying demons are coming at you? I'm more concerned with how much damage a proper demonic horde can do than a flying circus.

Better yet, get an allied vanilla libby for NULL ZONE with the extra points.

Martel732 wrote:
Better yet, get an allied vanilla libby for NULL ZONE with the extra points.

Null zone is going to be truely horrible against the new daemons, with the loss of fateweavers bubble, ouch!.#

Sternguard will also be good against elite daemon armies, so what to they have GUO at toughness silly with iron arm, heres wound on a 2plus ammo rapid firing in your face, its all about making them roll dice

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

Besides you, although you do it mostly to have fun with them admittedly. But you do

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What are you going to do when two Bloodthirsters and three flying Daemon Princes hit your gunline then? Roll into a ball and cry?

Because there is a player in my group which runs this.

As if Mephiston would stop that attack at all.

 Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

Besides you, although you do it mostly to have fun with them admittedly. But you do

I already said that I do and that it is hardly an ideal set-up. I wish I had some Tervigons...

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

He does need a delivery method - I'm actually amazed no-one has brought this up (from what I've noticed)

If you swap out his standard psychic powers he loses Wings of Sanguinius, as far as I know you can't pick and choose which powers you keep, it's all or nothing. Rolling to pass leadership at the start of every movement phase is a bit risky, it isn't a guaranteed delivery system at all!

 stubacca wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

He does need a delivery method - I'm actually amazed no-one has brought this up (from what I've noticed)

If you swap out his standard psychic powers he loses Wings of Sanguinius, as far as I know you can't pick and choose which powers you keep, it's all or nothing. Rolling to pass leadership at the start of every movement phase is a bit risky, it isn't a guaranteed delivery system at all!

It's even worse when every Eldar player in the local meta brings eldrad. Now your rolling psychic tests on 3 dice.

 stubacca wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

He does need a delivery method - I'm actually amazed no-one has brought this up (from what I've noticed)

If you swap out his standard psychic powers he loses Wings of Sanguinius, as far as I know you can't pick and choose which powers you keep, it's all or nothing. Rolling to pass leadership at the start of every movement phase is a bit risky, it isn't a guaranteed delivery system at all!

Considering we have no idea how Asmodean crams a 250 point model into a 1500 point list, we can only assume he just foot slogs him into battle.

MotRW 200
Librarian, Bike, PFG 115

RCS, Banner 165
RCS 120

RAS, Melta 90
RAS, Melta
RAS, Melta
RAS 80
RAS

Darkshroud 80

Mephiston 250
BA Assault Squad, 2 Melta, Drop Pod 120

1500 points

I have two variants on this, one where I drop two bike squads for a third Black Knight squad and Lvl 2 on the librarian, and one where I drop the fifth bike squad for melta on the fourth and an apothecary in the command squad. The RAS with no upgrades go in front with Sammael and the Librarian to get Skilled Rider and soak fire. Alpha strike with 60 twin-linked bolter shots and whatever plasma can reach from the BKs, or turbo-boost forward with the Shroud.

Couple of caveats: The tables I play on are quite small, being London (mostly 4 by 4, I can only play 6 by 4 on weekends), so close combat is almost a certainty by turn two with scout.

Not much you can do against SW and Eldar, I guess, but they are relatively rare in my meta- but the same would go for any Librarian and although Mephiston is incredibly perils prone, he has five wounds versus two. In any case, mobility isn't a problem with the list, Mephiston is there to attract firepower and counter-assault, rather than charging straight into assault.

Mephiston may not be great in a BA list, but this is about using him in a RW list. Specifically, my RW list above.

I don't rate Baal predators at all. 130 points for a TL Assault Cannon? That's not shooting.

If you've never played against FMCs, you're in for a paradigm shift about assault in 6th edition. Daemon shooting is abysmal, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

The point is, you cannot cripple a FMC circus list by shooting it, taking wounds on FMCs doesn't hurt them. You win by killing them in CC, something Mephiston is extremely good at. Daemons have to be afraid of him because if they let a single wound through, they're dead. With Black Knight support he strikes simultaneously with DPs, wounding them on 2+ with PE rerolls, while they hit on 4+ and wound on 4+. GUOs and Lords of Change strike at I5, and Keepers of Secrets aren't flying. The only thing which has a reasonable chance of killing him is the BT.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
Is that another group Chris?.

I will admit that with my list, 3 DP's and a LoC hitting your lines after its been battered by lots of shooting is hard, in the game the other week against Lyall, half my army took down his bloodthirster warlord in one shooting phase so I can kick out a lot of dice with my usual 1750 list.

I also run BA's, and have only run mephy in a few games, my go to choice is a normal libby with JP and a sang priest, mainly to buff the assault squad they are with which makes them pretty mean, against normal stats (i.e MEQ) they are hitting on 4's re rolling and wounding on 3's with 3 attacks each with up to 12 dudes (9 assault marines at 3 each = 27 sarg at 4, sang priest ws5 at 4 and libby at 4 equals 39 attacks on the charge for a unhurt squad).

Anyway, that is why I dont usually take meph, the few times I have run him he has walked through huron blackheart and his squad and killed a lot of nids (namely nid warriors, 3 wounds a piece my arse.... ha) and one game while he had iron arm and warp speed, in a 4k point game he was so darn slow everything run away from him (playing chaos, go figure!)

I do love the dude, but its a bit points investment, and against a BT I doubt he would last one turn my DP didnt even with warp speed.

I play in three clubs, and might be joining another Such is the variety of the London gaming scene!

If I do recall that was some poor rolling on the behalf of his BT!

I'll probably experiment with him a little, part of the reason is I've always wanted to run Mephiston, and now with allies I can!

Another thing, since he's quite bad at killing himself, he's great against Necron Lords with MSS!

I'm surprised no one has commented on my alternatives yet:

Contemptor Dread with Cyclone Missile Launcher (215 pts)
Rune Priest on bike, Arjac Rockfist with Wolf Guard in Drop pod (Roughly the same as the BA)
Nemisis Dreadknight, Teleporter, Greatsword, Gatling Psilencer (250 points)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In a tourney TAC list I'd run Mortis Contemptors instead, but specifically for my meta... Mephiston rocks.

Just a quick heads-up on your BA assault marines, they can only get a single melta for every 5 man.

However I am wondering what you are going to do once you face a Helldrake or two?
Since you are tailoring to your meta it isn't unheard of that other players will also, and looking at your current list you have nothing that can really deal with this.

And using Mephiston as counter assault is always a gamble as you will fail that psychic test for wings when you really need it.

Looking at what you want to counter (FMC) and seeing as Forgeworld is not restricted I would suggest using a couple of Hyperios Missile Launcher platforms.

DutchSage wrote:
Just a quick heads-up on your BA assault marines, they can only get a single melta for every 5 man.

However I am wondering what you are going to do once you face a Helldrake or two?
Since you are tailoring to your meta it isn't unheard of that other players will also, and looking at your current list you have nothing that can really deal with this.

And using Mephiston as counter assault is always a gamble as you will fail that psychic test for wings when you really need it.

Looking at what you want to counter (FMC) and seeing as Forgeworld is not restricted I would suggest using a couple of Hyperios Missile Launcher platforms.

Was going to suggest a hyperios, they are mean really, very good anti air and have interceptor and skyfire and good anti light armour as well

 Super Ready wrote:
This sounds like a pretty good combo, actually. Everyone's harping on about his inability to take out TEQs but they're forgetting two things:

1) Both he and the Ravenwing are very manoeuvrable.
2) You already have fantastic AP2 ability in Sammael and the Knights.

If you're looking at Mephiston in a Ravenwing list and moaning about TEQ's? You're missing the point.

That said, you shouldn't plan your entire game around him as he IS just one man and can get tarpitted by big mobs and the like. Use him to counter any immediate threats to your other units, or counter-assault if your bikes get unexpectedly stuck in assault.

This goes on with what I was thinking. OP is running 3, I think units of black knights, and I assume Sammal also? Terminators won't be a problem. Keeping meph near the powerfield generator might not even be necessary, I would just retreat towards it (if the bearer of it is still alive) once he starts getting torn up.

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

True

A squad of assault terminators are in many ways more resilent with the 3++ instead of T6. They have 10 attacks compared to mephy's 5. They still hit at high strength and they are AP2 instead of AP3. They cost less.

purely on combat ability, Mephi isnt good.

 Exergy wrote:

For combat, Mephi isnt never good.

Is that a purposeful double negative? It seems to contradict what you said about Assault terminators.
While I hate Meph, and think he's an over priced pile of poo, he does one thing that Terminators don't: fill a mandatory HQ slot. Once you take into account a bare bones Librarian (since that's the cheapest HQ of use) your Assault Terminators sky rocket to being 320pts to bring along (however, I'm obviously ignoring the massive benefits that +20pts and Divination can have by including the librarian with TDA in the Assault terminator squad).

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

For combat, Mephi isnt never good.

Is that a purposeful double negative? It seems to contradict what you said about Assault terminators.
While I hate Meph, and think he's an over priced pile of poo, he does one thing that Terminators don't: fill a mandatory HQ slot. Once you take into account a bare bones Librarian (since that's the cheapest HQ of use) your Assault Terminators sky rocket to being 320pts to bring along (however, I'm obviously ignoring the massive benefits that +20pts and Divination can have by including the librarian with TDA in the Assault terminator squad).

wow I dont know what my hands were thinking

Mephi can be very good. But purely on this combat abilities he isnt worth it. You have to add in his other qualities like you mentioned to make him good.

Most pure CC characters arent particularly good. Those that have other abilities, that are not considered seem even worse. Mephi on CC prowess alone isnt great.

DutchSage wrote:
Just a quick heads-up on your BA assault marines, they can only get a single melta for every 5 man.

However I am wondering what you are going to do once you face a Helldrake or two?
Since you are tailoring to your meta it isn't unheard of that other players will also, and looking at your current list you have nothing that can really deal with this.

And using Mephiston as counter assault is always a gamble as you will fail that psychic test for wings when you really need it.

Looking at what you want to counter (FMC) and seeing as Forgeworld is not restricted I would suggest using a couple of Hyperios Missile Launcher platforms.

Good catch, Battlescribe lets me take two :(

I haven't seen a single helldrake being used in 20+ games, and no player has plans to field them (weird, I know) with at most possible one on the way.

That will just add an element of thrill to the game I think, no point playing with 100% reliable stuff, how boring would that be?

Hyperios take a valuable FA slot, and I dislike the models/will not buy them. I have two Mortis Contemptors for AA, if needed. I just can't figure out if the Cyclone upgrade is worthwhile.

I'm having a really hard time fielding Mephiston in 6th edition outside of using him extremely situationally. It sucks because he's unquestionably my favorite character fluff wise, and I'd try to cram him into every 5th ed list (even when it was unwise).

If you're looking for a BA ally to fill that monster hunting role, I'd really think about Tycho over Mephiston -- and here's why:
- Better ranged options (combi melta and sternguard ammo)
- Gets his hits at I5 in CC, and they ignore armor.

Essentially you're getting the same 2+ save, but with a better CC weapon, can join a unit, better at range -- and he's cheaper. Sure you lose the psyker combo, but it's absolutely worth it.

Tycho isn't bad, he has lots of small benefits that add up to a decent character. However your still not causing a ton of wounds at str 4. He'll probably kill 2-3 t4 models a turn in combat.

His combimelta is confusing, don't be tempted to try to use it, it's more of: I have one melta shot if I need it.

Speaking of "best" and "cheapest" BA HQs, our librarians are overpriced garbage also. 100 points for a model with no invulnerable save, that dies to a single krak missile? No thanks! I'm also sick of people thinking that prescience makes him worth it.

DA get a librarian who is appropriately priced, can take a myriad of awesome wargear with a choice of several different invulnerable options.

With BA we're either overpaying for a below average HQ or were overpaying for a crappy HQ that is only a liability.

I am honestly thinking lately that our better HQ choices would be a reclusiarch on a bike or dare I say a captain on a bike with a SS and TH.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

With BA we're either overpaying for a below average HQ or were overpaying for a crappy HQ that is only a liability.

I absolutely agree. It's something that sooner or later (late in the case of BA) it will all get sorted out with Codex updates. The problem BA have right now in 6th compared to other new codexs is the lack of options in HQ. There are a slew of really fluffy, nice named characters with a lot of fun rules on the tabletop that translate into a lot of points, but little effectiveness.

Now the move seems to be "Take a land raider priced named HQ with all sorts of fun stuff" or "Take a cheap HQ you can make as expensive as you want with flashy wargear". Since BA don't have a chapter wargear/relic section they're very limited. Captains are terrible, librarians are overpriced, and while I run reclusiarch's most often even they suffer from needing to take a JP to be CC viable with most lists, and even then you're using a crosius arcanum -- all at 155 pts.

I'm not crying by any means after being OP for an entire edition, but as it stands the codex hasn't transitioned to 6th as well as GK's has.

Keep in mind that the BA librarians might only be mastery level 1 they can take 2 psychic powers from the rulebook disciplines. So while still severely overpriced compared to our Dark Angels alternatives, that's at least something i guess.

It's a shame you're forced to have a HQ. And it's an even bigger shame that the BA codex does not have a single HQ that does not feel flawed somehow (underwhelming or overpriced, or just plain lacking options).

It's something every edition happens though and it is especially felt by the Space Marine armies as they can directly compare exact the same units that get a 35% points reduction :(

Still Blood Angels have enough toys that they are fun to play, and knowing you're codex overpays by about 10% makes the wins against the top tier armies even sweeter (and gives you a nice excuse when you loose , no way did I play that poorly, normally that 1 death company marine totally owns a Bloodthirster ).

BA will get updated, it's pointless comparing a 5th ed codex to a 6th.

DutchSage wrote:


It's a shame you're forced to have a HQ.

Tell me about it! Let me nominate a tactical sergeant to lead my detachment!

Good old Space Marine Battle Leaders. 40 points a pop.

It may just be me but I always roll amazingly well on my HQ units, so much so that a good 30-40% of my games have been won by sheer virtue of 2 HQs tearing their way
through most of the opponent's army, or soaking the fire of entire turns. This also takes into account 3rd edition, so your mileage may vary.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Good old Space Marine Battle Leaders. 40 points a pop.

It may just be me but I always roll amazingly well on my HQ units, so much so that a good 30-40% of my games have been won by sheer virtue of 2 HQs tearing their way
through most of the opponent's army, or soaking the fire of entire turns. This also takes into account 3rd edition, so your mileage may vary.

You must be having some outstanding luck. The only BA HQ choice that ever seems to have decent survivability in my lists (when I dare get them into combat) is a terminator librarian. I love using him (because SG are my favorite BA units) but Dante is so astoundingly weak for 225 pts I'm always angry when he gets eliminated quickly.

Yup Dante is weak sauce for 225 pts.

And that terminator librarian has survivability, but relatively little damage output.

No one's offered any real alternatives to Mephiston though, a Termi Assault Squad doesn't quite cut it in terms of mobility and killyness.

Ahhh, Mephiston, a personal favorite of mine. An absolute terror in 5th. What's changed since then? The overall nerfs to melee (random charge range, challenges...etc), dropping to AP3, making terminators an almost impossible battle now along with 2+ save characters.

He's always had shifty fights against terminators though, in fifth TH/SS terminators were one of his banes. Top end 2+ save characters also beat his face in during fifth (Abaddon, Draigo, Lysander, Calgar, etc) and do even better now.
He's always had bad days against massed lascannons, poison, melta, plasma and other AP2 fire power, but now FnP work against pretty much everything, and cover saves are all less potent.

So not much has changed there, so what is he good at? Well, he dumps 3+ save anything super fast. He laughs every vehicle he touches off the board, and is reasonably fast as well. As a bonus, he fills your compulsory HQ slot as well.

I think we can all agree that BA HQs are largely crap. Our libbys are inferior to DA's, our captain can't have a relic blade or artificer armor, reclusarchs are just poor and the other special character aren't anything to write home about. So regardless of what we choose, we are paying a 100+ point tax right off the bat. Additionally, I feel one of the major failings of the BA list is it's ability to deal with power armor+ and monstrous creatures, plague marines, FnP marines of other sorts, bikers, tervigons, demon princes, greater demons...etc. this is a task that Meph excels at. Vehicles and hordes have never really been too much of an issue with ASM being decent against weaker troops, and have a fair amount of melta kicking around.

So how to use him effectively? Hiding him in a squad of ASM for the cover save and probably FnP is a no brainer. Using the ASM sergeant as challenge bait for the scary targets, and any support fire you have to make life easier for him is also obvious. Use him to take out your opponents most expensive optimal target for mephiston. Forget the rulebook powers, as trading 3 good powers for 1 good one (prescience) and 1 random one is a crappy trade.

We can get into discussion all day about "Well, 10 combi-plasma sternguard can kill him in 1 volley!" or "TH/SS terminators are better damage in melee" or any other comparison you want to make, but overall, he's not laughably bad, but he's not exactly top notch competitive either much like the majority of the BA codex. His unique combination of T6, W5 2+ save, and 5-6 rerollable S10 attacks in melee, all while being capable of jump pack movement is not to be easily dismissed in a game.