Rethinking Mephiston

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**Martel732**

It's not ridiculous to say he has no utility for his price. Because he doesn't. He's have awesome utility if BA armies got a free Mephiston with the purchase of 2 ASM squads.

You call it wish listing, I call it listing things that would make him not suck. But hey, he fits right in with all of the other BA HQs in the "suck" box.

**JGrand**

It's not ridiculous to say he has no utility for his price. Because he doesn't. He's have awesome utility if BA armies got a free Mephiston with the purchase of 2 ASM squads.

You call it wish listing, I call it listing things that would make him not suck. But hey, he fits right in with all of the other BA HQs in the "suck" box.

Everything you listed about why he is suddenly "worthless" in 6th edition either applied in 5th or is not specific to Mephiston. He wasn't good versus Terminators before. It seems as though you happened to play with a bunch of players who were bad enough to use Tactical Termies, so I'm sure that there are other factors at play. You also had good luck Oblit hunting--again, good players just don't let you rip through multiple Obliterator squads with Mephiston.

Yes, his hood has been nerfed. All hoods have. For some reason, it's waaaaay worse for Meph than a normal Libby in your mind. He still gets a nice DTW save due to his high mastery level.

His cost is high, and you are correct to say that it is a bit too high. However, Meph has utility. He will still beat down your average sergeant/character in a challenge. He still kicks the crap out of MEQ. He is still toughness 6, 5 wounds, and has a 2+ save (which got better this edition). Meph has always folded to high ap weapons. Meph has always lost to bigger bullies in assault. Meph has always wished he could hide in squads.

I'm not trying to say that Mephiston is "zomg the most amazing character ever." I do think he has utility. I've already stated that for 250 points, he is a solid counter attack unit. He is fast enough and hits hard enough to be worth using in certain lists. I've even provided you a list that can work and that uses him.

There's really no point in arguing if you are delusional to think that he should come free with the purchase of two ASM squads. Hyperbole or not, you seem to want to play "woe to poor Blood Angels" in this thread.

**Martel732**

Umm, no. I was joking about that. However, he's at least 50 pts too much, which means he's a no go in any list I'd ever build.

And yeah, the BA HQ choices pretty much are terrible now. Except for the divination monkey libby. How heroic.

**Griddlelol**

Martel732 wrote:
How heroic.

Most HQs seem to be like that now. STW sucks :/

**SoloFalcon1138**

Has the OP even shown what his actual army list would be so we could evaluate whether a 250 point allied HQ would be worth taking in 1500 poi ts?

**Griddlelol**

From what I've read OP is posting the equivalent of "lalala I'm not listening" so I'm not sure if his list would be worth commenting on anyway.

**SoloFalcon1138**

kinda what I'm feeling. its a huge expenditure of points to "boost" an undefeated list.

**Exergy**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
tomjoad wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
he's going to have a bad day; and for his cost you really can't afford to let him have bad days.

This is the number one reason I never use Mephiston. Against Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids, Mephy has a harder time moving fast enough to get anywhere and can't do all his tricks even if he does get into a good combat. He offers no psychic defense and rarely increases the abilities of units around him. If he gets tarpitted, or just shot enough (especially by plasma and poison), he was totally wasted points. I don't like land raiders either (did you know you could get two really good tanks for fewer points?!) but I'd always prefer an LRC to one overpriced hit-or-miss character.

Puppies will lose their schtick when the next codex comes out. Mephiston provides a 4+ deny the witch roll against the most common psyker, Librarians.

Puppies wont get a new codex till Tau, Eldar, Orks, C:SM, BT and Nids get a new codex, which is likely in 7th edition at which point psykers might work completely different. I dont think space wolves are going anywhere anytime soon so I wouldnt hold my breath.

Mephiston has a great deny the witch sure, but he cant stop useful powers at range. Who cares if you can deny psykic shooting attacks when your enemy is giving himself T9, EW, Twinlinked weapons, or invisibility.

**Martel732**

Sinking 250 into a turkey like Mephy is a good way to become defeated real fast.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Hyperbole or not, you seem to want to play "woe to poor Blood Angels" in this thread."

I still have the gonads to roll these losers out (only army I own

), so I'm going to reserve the right to complain once in a while. Like it or not, the BA are bad. And winning with them is now much more meaningful than in 5th. Which is good, because it happens a lot less often :(

**Exergy**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Not hugely, I'm dropping the Land Raider Crusader with Banner Command Squad inside for him. While extremely hard to kill,I find having 165 points sitting inside doing nothing
extremely points inefficient, and whatever firepower not coming the way of the Land Raider is hitting my bikes instead. The LRC is also 260 points of unscoring which cannot contest, can die in a single shot, and is useful in only one phase in my turn, i.e. shooting.

Ravenwing shooting with the banner, while strong, is still overly reliant on a single phase. Optimising my list for all phases is probably better.

Mephiston makes my list both strong in assault and shooting.

The BA drop pod with assault squad will also be something the Ravenwing sorely need, which is reliable turn one anti-vehicle melta. Sure, it's quite an expensive unit to suicide, but having bikes do it is worse (unreliable with one shot, can't get 2d6 on turn 1, wasting salvo fire, suiciding a valuable scoring bike unit). The squad and pod can block LOS and movement, and soak fire which would be directed at my bikes.

Mephiston, on the other hand, is useful in three (psychic defence, Biomancy if the situation calls for it, and assault.) He can tie up units in assault and with I7, extremely effective for running squads down in Sweeping (the best way to kill units).

The list I run mitigates Meph's weaknesses: A PFG gives him a 4++ invuln, any TEQs will die horrible deaths to my three Black Knight squads, and the fact he can be shot at will hopefully draw some fire off my bikers. He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

His role in the list is to pick off the units my Black Knights and Sammael can't handle; which while admittedly rare include things like Dreadknights and Monstrous Creatures, especially Greater Daemons, which are huge threats to my army I find wasting my firepower on quite inefficient. Mephiston stacks up quite well against any Greater Daemon assuming doesn't get charged (It's quite easy to bubble wrap a single model) as he just needs to get one attack through, and he eats Tervigons and non-Iron Armed Flyrants for breakfast.

at 1850 I'd just take two Mortis Contemptors, but at 1500 no one really seems to bring flyers, only FMCs.

So
Mephy 250
melta BA assault squad in a drop pod ~120
Sammuel ~200
Land Raider Crusaider ~260
Techmarine with powerfield generator ~100
Command Squad inside the land raider with dakka banner(65) ~160

That is over 1090 and doesnt include your black knights or Ravenwing bikers.

For the dakka banner to be effective you are going to need a lot of regular bikes with twin linked bolters and for anti teq you will need squads of black knights

400 points and you need 2+ troops and an 1+ elite, how many bikes is that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
someone check my math, I dont have the DA codex

**Martel732**

That is a really small army. Even by BA standards.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Exergy wrote:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Not hugely, I'm dropping the Land Raider Crusader with Banner Command Squad inside for him. While extremely hard to kill,I find having 165 points sitting inside doing nothing
extremely points inefficient, and whatever firepower not coming the way of the Land Raider is hitting my bikes instead. The LRC is also 260 points of unscoring which cannot contest, can die in a single shot, and is useful in only one phase in my turn, i.e. shooting.

Ravenwing shooting with the banner, while strong, is still overly reliant on a single phase. Optimising my list for all phases is probably better.

Mephiston makes my list both strong in assault and shooting.

The BA drop pod with assault squad will also be something the Ravenwing sorely need, which is reliable turn one anti-vehicle melta. Sure, it's quite an expensive unit to suicide, but having bikes do it is worse (unreliable with one shot, can't get 2d6 on turn 1, wasting salvo fire, suiciding a valuable scoring bike unit). The squad and pod can block LOS and movement, and soak fire which would be directed at my bikes.

Mephiston, on the other hand, is useful in three (psychic defence, Biomancy if the situation calls for it, and assault.) He can tie up units in assault and with I7, extremely effective for running squads down in Sweeping (the best way to kill units).

The list I run mitigates Meph's weaknesses: A PFG gives him a 4++ invuln, any TEQs will die horrible deaths to my three Black Knight squads, and the fact he can be shot at will hopefully draw some fire off my bikers. He doesn't need a delivery method, he has a jump pack.

His role in the list is to pick off the units my Black Knights and Sammael can't handle; which while admittedly rare include things like Dreadknights and Monstrous Creatures, especially Greater Daemons, which are huge threats to my army I find wasting my firepower on quite inefficient. Mephiston stacks up quite well against any Greater Daemon assuming doesn't get charged (It's quite easy to bubble wrap a single model) as he just needs to get one attack through, and he eats Tervigons and non-Iron Armed Flyrants for breakfast.

at 1850 I'd just take two Mortis Contemptors, but at 1500 no one really seems to bring flyers, only FMCs.

So
Mephy 250
melta BA assault squad in a drop pod ~120
Sammuel ~200
Land Raider Crusaider ~260
Techmarine with powerfield generator ~100
Command Squad inside the land raider with dakka banner(65) ~160

That is over 1090 and doesnt include your black knights or Ravenwing bikers.

For the dakka banner to be effective you are going to need a lot of regular bikes with twin linked bolters and for anti teq you will need squads of black knights

400 points and you need 2+ troops and an 1+ elite, how many bikes is that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
someone check my math, I dont have the DA codex

Read the first line of my post.

Alternatives to Mephiston:

Two Mortis Contemptors, Kheres (Cyclones? Expensive at 35 points a pop)

Rune Priest on Bike, Drop podding GH with Arjac Rockfist ( TH+JOTWW ), 2 Wolf Guard on Bikes to go with the RP

Bray'ath Asmantle in a Lucius Drop Pod

This is based on the models I have, or are willing to buy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea here is to have a monster hunting unit which draws fire away from my precious Bikes.

Mephiston ticks the boxes, because he's a huge threat which cannot be ignored.Oh, and he will be getting a 4++ from a babysitting Techmarine or Librarian.

**Andilus Greatsword**

Griddlelol wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
How heroic.

Most HQs seem to be like that now. STW sucks :/

As someone who runs a combat HQ, killing the enemy's weak warlords makes my day.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Combat HQs are still boss. They've turned around so many games from me, and can pull last minute wins (well, Sammael, at least, with his insane mobility, survivability, and AP2 I5 weapon.) This is why Mephiston appeals, as most of the tables I play on are 4 by 4, assault in the second turn is a guarantee.

**rigeld2**

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

I do. 3 of them.

And I can point to maybe 2 games in the last 6 months that I might have won if only I had been taking Trygons. The rest I've either won or lost by enough that it wouldn't have mattered.

**Martel732**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Combat HQs are still boss. They've turned around so many games from me, and can pull last minute wins (well, Sammael, at least, with his insane mobility, survivability, and AP2 I5 weapon.) This is why Mephiston appeals, as most of the tables I play on are 4 by 4, assault in the second turn is a guarantee.

Too bad BA HQs are terrible at combat. Mephiston included, for his price.

**Andilus Greatsword**

rigeld2 wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Commander_Nightflier wrote:
i dont understand why people think that he is a fragile mini, hes got a better stat line than a carnifex and a heck of a lot harder to see in cover, and can move a lot faster. use him as such. I have a hard time seeing anything that can deal with Railguns better than a land raider as fragile? and for the indended purpose he would be great.

Yeah but who takes Carnifexes? And for that matter, he's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex.

I do. 3 of them.

And I can point to maybe 2 games in the last 6 months that I might have won if only I had been taking Trygons. The rest I've either won or lost by enough that it wouldn't have mattered.

haha well I run them as well, but more because I don't have any Tyrgons, Tervigons or Tyrannofexes. And my Carnifexes aren't dakkafexes either...

But still, that doesn't change the matter that Mephiston's almost 100pts more than a Carnifex so his stats should be better...

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Martel732 wrote:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Combat HQs are still boss. They've turned around so many games from me, and can pull last minute wins (well, Sammael, at least, with his insane mobility, survivability, and AP2 I5 weapon.) This is why Mephiston appeals, as most of the tables I play on are 4 by 4, assault in the second turn is a guarantee.

Too bad BA HQs are terrible at combat. Mephiston included, for his price.

That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.

His only downside is that he can't hit and run.

**Martel732**

"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Today Mephiston and friends utterly curbstomped a Tau army. The BA assault squad survived 15 fire warriors rapid firing to kill / lock up a broadside and a 15 man unit of fire warriors. Mephiston ran roughshod over battlesuits and drew a lot of firepower off my bikes, which completed a tabling in turn 5.

Couple of thoughts
Rolling Invisiblity on Black Knights is broken.

Rolling three psychic powers a turn for Mephiston makes him quite susceptible to Perils of the Warp. I took about three perils wounds this game.

Altogether I'm quite pleased by the synergy of the BA/Ravenwing combination. Hopefully more competitive games to come.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

**tomjoad**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Let's assume you're right about that. I don't have the experience to say for sure, but it sounds close enough, so I'll concede that Mephiston is the best CC character any loyalist marine army can take. What that says to me, though, is that I should not ever take a marine character for CC purposes at all, not that I should just settle for the least bad option.

**TheLionOfTheForest**

Mephiston might be one of the better cc characters in a vacuum however there are two severely limiting factors in his utilization:1 no IC, so he's on his own and requires either a transport or careful model placement to make sure he is out of LOS. 2 No invulnerable save which compounds with issue one.

Either Mephiston is in a LR or SR, or you risk DS stormies ruining his day. If he is in one of those two vehicals, they now present a massive target comprising of approx 500 points, equivalent to 2 tactical squads and rhinos.

He's just not worth it at the points level he costs, at the points level the rest of our units cost, without an invulnerable and without the ability to join even a squad.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Running him in my Ravenwing list mitigates both of these problems.

With a Libby / Tech running a PFG he gets 4++ save.

Being an IC isn't that huge, because if my opponent wants to divert firepower at him, I'm perfectly happy for him to take it.

T6 W5 2+ 4++ is extremely hard to kill in a single shooting phase, since he's effectively immune to ID and given his size it's unlikely all units will be able to LOS him.

Any shooting wasted on him is shooting not going at the bikes, and the assault squad.

Turn one scout move means my army is in charge range come turn 2. This is useful against any army, and Mephiston is there to provide counter-charge against large FMCs who I refuse to waste my firepower on- and he minces everything except a Bloodthirster one on one in close combat, and has a fair chance against the BT.

Any thoughts on the alternatives?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tomjoad wrote:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Let's assume you're right about that. I don't have the experience to say for sure, but it sounds close enough, so I'll concede that Mephiston is the best CC character any loyalist marine army can take. What that says to me, though, is that I should not ever take a marine character for CC purposes at all, not that I should just settle for the least bad option.

Mephiston is essentially a jump pack MC for all intents and purposes, and these used to be the best CC units prior to Winged DPs with Black Maces / Bloodthirsters.

With the limited Marine options for fighting DPs and other FMCs reliably, I'd say he's worth the points. No one else even comes close- maybe Severin Loth, due to his 2++ and six biomancy rolls, but he doesn't have a jump pack. Ignore an extremely powerful phase of the game at your own peril!

Oh god, I just had a thought; Mephiston might be a FMC in the next codex

**cannoncocker**

I run a BA and I have Mephiston, unfortunately I agree he is too much points. Maybe if it is a 2000 point game or higher yes take him . If he was an IC I could run him with an assault squad and sanguine priest. That is neither here or their. Instead of Mephiston I have a terminator librarian I can use. Yes he has a thunderhammer, but it is more a force weapon mace which is strength 6 and a storm shield. I give him Sword of Sanguine and Wings of Sanguine. This is about 220 points. Your not spending the 250 and you have a better invel save, just a suggestion.

[/img]

**SoloFalcon1138**

We can't really comment on what he uses because we don't know... I still believe 250 points for an allied commander is too much, especially for an undefeated list.

**TheLionOfTheForest**

I also think that a terminator librarian with storm shield is the best choice for BA although I favor a force axe.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

cannoncocker wrote:
I run a BA and I have Mephiston, unfortunately I agree he is too much points. Maybe if it is a 2000 point game or higher yes take him . If he was an IC I could run him with an assault squad and sanguine priest. That is neither here or their. Instead of Mephiston I have a terminator librarian I can use. Yes he has a thunderhammer, but it is more a force weapon mace which is strength 6 and a storm shield. I give him Sword of Sanguine and Wings of Sanguine. This is about 220 points. Your not spending the 250 and you have a better invel save, just a suggestion.
[/img]

That's not a bad idea actually!

Only thing holding him back (and this is huge) no sweeping advance.oh, and a measly two attacks :(

**Martel732**

tomjoad wrote:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"That's not entirely true, Mephiston is pretty good for his price if you're looking at him from a pure close combat perspective.
"

I am looking at him from a CC perspective. He's not even close to being worth 250.

Arguably he isn't quite as good as a Bloodthirster, but as a Space Marine option he's probably the strongest beatstick character you get at 250 points.

Let's assume you're right about that. I don't have the experience to say for sure, but it sounds close enough, so I'll concede that Mephiston is the best CC character any loyalist marine army can take. What that says to me, though, is that I should not ever take a marine character for CC purposes at all, not that I should just settle for the least bad option.

This.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

What are you going to do when two Bloodthirsters and three flying Daemon Princes hit your gunline then? Roll into a ball and cry?

Because there is a player in my group which runs this.