Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I want to share an interesting experience I had a while back with a friend and the 40k Universe. I hope you guys bare with me and read on.
So one day I was sitting in the local library with a few friends, just chatting and the such. I got up and walked around the books for a bit, when I came across a Warhammer 40000 book. It was the Blood Ravens Omnibus, Dawn of War. I grabbed it and went to show my friends.
(Keep in mind that I'm the only 40k fan in my immediate group of friends.)
They asked me what the book was all about, and I decided that to give them a brief background info on the universe, I read the little story that comes on the first page of almost all Black Library books and W40K related articles, such as the rulebook. When I came to the part about the God-Emperor and his worship, one of my friends, who happens to be a Mormon, demanded I stop. Out of respect for him, I did. Later he asked me to never bring up this series again, and to please refrain from speaking about it in front of him. I must clarify that I was not taken aback from his request, and simply complied.
So it got me thinking: are there any people out there who play the games, read the books or do anything 40k related that still maintain their religious aspects of life? Personally, I'm a Catholic, and though I love how much fun the lore is, I don't go around preaching the word of the Emperor (well, unless its with certain company like other fans)
Has anybody else that you know been offended by this material? How have you handled it? I'd like to hear from the community on this matter, and I don't mean to start any religious rants or anything, I just wonder if anyone's gone through the same thing I have.

I am Christian. I know that can mean many things, but I am more specifically a protestant (non-catholic) Christian. I was NOT raised this way. I came to this decision when I was in college (came from a family of atheists). I am what one would say "devout" - I try to live my life as best as I can, lead by example (i.e., not standing on a soap box and preaching fire and brimstone at people), etc.

That said, I always have 2 or 3 WH40k books that I'm reading. "It's just fiction, dude!" is my attitude. If you are too immature or close minded to realize this, by all means, stay under your rock (directed at those of my spiritual kin that DO hold the same attitude as your Mormon friend). As a hardcore Christian myself, I really want to say to most other christians "Get over yourself."

Some people need to learn how to detach works of fiction from their religious world view.

How anyone could get offended over a story where space men with huge guns fight sentient fungus and space elves is beyond me.

^

What he said.

EDIT: I'm so dang sick of people opressing other people from talking about whatever they want to talk about because it might offend them. UGH! Dirty jokes in the work place bug the crap out of me (because I don't want to be perceived as partaking in the jokes if seen by management) but do I ask them to stop? NO! Even though the work place is different and maybe I should... heh...

I have a couple really religious friends who play 40k (one catholic one protestant, myself being half-dedicated to the FSM), and love the lore background. The protestant one had a little problem with the whole other gods thing at first, but got over it quickly. Generally they just regard the lore as entertaining fiction and get on to play the game.

If your faith is so fragile that you can't enjoy a work of fiction featuring a religion different from your own, I pity you (not you the poster, just a general you).

I'd actually love to write an essay about how the ruinous powers are actually analogous to God and that the Emperor is actually the icon of the anti religious left trying to stifle people from having the freedom to choose religion if they so wish.

Wow that would be popular... lol... as well as contrary to what most people would think.

 Thorn678 wrote:
I'd actually love to write an essay about how the ruinous powers are actually analogous to God and that the Emperor is actually the icon of the anti religious left trying to stifle people from having the freedom to choose religion if they so wish.

Wow that would be popular... lol... as well as contrary to what most people would think.

That is an interesting way to look at it. I would have thought the Emperor (within the story of course) to be a sort of messiah figure working against corrupting forces. But now that I think of it your version actually works well....

EDIT: Actually is heretical

Religious people need to realise not everyone believes in the same things as them, if they are so offended by some literature I think the onus is on them to avoid it, not their friends. Personally I find the viewpoints of the average DON'T SINGLE OUT ANY REAL WORLD RELIGION FOR CENSURE, PLEASE. -Mannahnin more offensive than a science fiction novel.

Necronboy: That's what I meant by opposite of what most people would think Christianity at its root promotes thought, not this rigid "YOU WILL DO THIS AND DRESS LIKE THIS OR GO TO HEYYYEEEEELLLuh!" People that are like that deeply sadden me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarsNZ wrote:
Religious people need to realise not everyone believes in the same things as them, if they are so offended by some literature I think the onus is on them to avoid it, not their friends. Personally I find the viewpoints of the average EDITED more offensive than a science fiction novel.

Non religious people need to realize that not all religious people are like that and maybe not make blanket statements.

But seriously this. It's on me to keep my mouth shut if something bothers me, not to get on your case about it.

Oh crap I just broke my own rule. See! Mortification of the flesh for me... haha

for good measure.

Oh and

rofl

I jest

Moderator Note: This kind of thread needs to be handled VERY carefully. Insults directed at adherents of a particular religion, group of religions, or non-adherents in general are NOT welcome on Dakka. They will be treated as violations of Dakka Rule #1, Be Polite.

^

Yeah and just for clarity I wasn't insulting, just kidding.

Bludbaff wrote:
If your faith is so fragile that you can't enjoy a work of fiction featuring a religion different from your own, I pity you (not you the poster, just a general you).

Exactly.

Not that this is new, really. D&D is Satan stealing your soul, MTG is satanic rituals, etc. There's a long and shameful history of religious extremists being unable to separate fantasy and reality and thinking that enjoying fictional religions/magic/etc is the same as worshiping a rival god/casting "real" magic spells/etc.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Insults directed at adherents of a particular religion, group of religions, or non-adherents in general are NOT welcome on Dakka.

Where's the insult? Stating that a religious group has offensive beliefs is NOT an insult if the religious group does in fact have offensive beliefs. It's not an insult to state that a (hypothetical) satanic murder cult has offensive beliefs, it's just an ethical argument that "murder is fun" is an offensive belief.

It is like the people who condemn Harry Potter b/c it has witch craft in it. If you can't draw a line between fantasy and reality I don't think your all there.

It might also depend on your view of god tho. Is he a strict harsh god that burns everything with fire or is he someone who hang back and laugh at a joke (like the platypus).

Dude, the platypus is proof that God has a sense of humor.

And the people in Wal-Marts.

To the OP I do have some family that would find 40k very offensive, but I don't show it to them and thankfully they live very far away. Though when I first got into 40k I tried getting my friends into it as well and to my disappointment none of my friends that I thought would get into the hobby did, but to my great surprise my very religious friend did get into the hobby and is willing to talk about most of the fluff. He even has considered building a CSM army around Tzeentch (go figure). Though not a fan of any book dealing with chaos daemons.

Well.

These are the people that give religion a bad name.

I wouldn't call myself religious, I have my own beliefs that I haven't really found an established religion that covers it, but still.

I am Christian and enjoy 40k a lot. What you have to keep in mind is individuals sometimes have trouble decerning between reality and fiction. Yeah it's the God-emperor. He does not exist and we all know that. Some people almost like to be offended, religious or not.

To the OP, that was an interesting encounter, I wonder if your friend is representative of Mormons in general in regard to this issue. I credit your friend with giving you a heads up that he was not comfortable with that subject matter. Too often people keep that stuff to themselves or just suddenly drop out of your social circle with no explanation.

Depending on where you live, especially in the USA, you should probably use some discretion when talking about 40k or whfb because even though it is fictional to you, a very large percentage of Americans believe in angels and demons and it is a serious matter. While the range of beliefs that people can reasonably label as Christian is very wide, many Christian churches are very strict about ANYTHING related to the occult.

In middle school I remember being sternly warned about the danger of Ouija Boards. This was in a church that was not otherwise, openly what you would characterize as fundamentalist.

When the local HobbyTown franchise changed owners the last time the new owner sold all the Warhammer and MtG products off and discontinued carrying them because they felt like they were products that were incompatible with their religion. This is in a midwestern college town where there is a major state university.

Peregrines remarks above are very naive. In a country where we honor religious freedom it is bad form to say things like certain people cannot separate fantasy from fiction when you are talking about religion. Indeed, every person on the planet is essentially an atheist/unbeliever from the viewpoint of millions of other people who have adopted a different belief system.

Every culture has beliefs that members of other cultures would scoff at. However, it is impolite and counter productive to do so.

I always felt that if any group were to feel slighted by the Imperial Cult's depiction, it'd have been the Catholics. The monolithic structure, presence of saints who are revered in their own right, and multi-aspect nature of the Emperor (aspect of Omnissiah v holy trinity) echoes them more closely.

Also, I would like to point out that from the perspective of the antireligious, it's hardly surprising that some of the religious have issues with these kinds of works. They've already demonstrated an inability to seperate fantasy from reality. /rimshot. On a more serious note though, people can react very harshly to percieved criticism. By its very nature, 40k reflects the darkest side of everything depicted. The major religion demands blood sacrifice, the Angels are Angels of Death, even the science-minded socialists are blind mind-controlling zealots that misread the fundamental nature of the universe. If one feels that their particular group is the one being commented on, then 40k magnifies, even exaggerates, flaws and errors in a way that might very make them feel uncomfortable. It's all about the response.

One of my best friends in high school strongly holds to his protestant beliefs. However, when it came to games, that was just reflected in constantly playing clerics and paladins of good-aligned deities.

Of course, a knee-jerk hate simply because it mentions a god other than their own isn't a wonderful sign, due to the superficiality of the reaction. For me it raises the question how the OP's friend would respond to people of non-Christian faiths, especially non-Abrahamic ones.

I'm a Catholic myself, and well, I just don't focus too much on the various aspects that may cause offense. In the Horus Heresy books, I believe Dan Abnett may have referenced a Christian belief in his book about the Alpha Legion. Then there's the chapter number for the Grey Knights. Of course, these references can pertain to any amount of things that aren't remotely related to Christianity, but I can see how a Christian would be offended by them.

Then again...I was introduced to this game by a shop owner who painted swasticas on his blood angels. I didn't let that ruin the game for me...and I'm not going to let some fluff ruin it either.

Kudos for respecting your friend's beliefs OP.

Sometimes people do get extreme in their beliefs, this is not limited to religion. I've seen it as well in politics (who you vote for, which side your on), diet (vegetarians/vegans), and general lifestyles. Like all groups of people, the extreme ones can give a bad rep to the non extreme ones.

I, for example, am an atheist. My whole family is religious, and I honestly couldn't tell you when it happened, I just stopped believing. There are many extreme atheists out there who will get right in religious people's faces and tell them how they are wrong for what they believe in. Which I find to be just as wrong as people who say you are wrong for not believing what they believe for whichever situation. These people are the reason that when I tell other people that are religious that I'm an atheist, I tend to be met with sour looks and audible gasps and hisses. I tell people, that just because I don't believe the same thing as you, doesn't mean you are wrong for believing in it. Does God(s) exist, I don't know, so I choose not to believe, which doesn't really change anything about them existing.

My grandmother once came in to the room while my brother and I were young and watching SW episode 1, and upon seeing darth maul, proceeded to take out the movie and burn it, saying there was devil in the movie, and was not fit for young minds to watch (it was a birthday present for my brother from my mom). No one else in my family is anywhere near that bad, but I have had some people in my life give me a bit of trouble like that. The worst experience was from a group of atheists that plated MtG at my university. The school had a designated area that the many MtG players could go to play without disturbing others between class, and it was frowned upon to play elsewhere. These guys would nag me all the time about not really being atheist because I didn't think people were wrong for believing in religion. They had an actual organization, and regular meetings, and pretty much turned atheism into a religion of its own. I had a good 2 hour debate with them over how their organization was a little oxymoronic, and I can assure you it was less fruitful than trying to convince the average religious person that there was a flaw in their belief system.

Its wrong to try and force your beliefs on anyone. This applies not only to religion. When I'm with people who are religious and they start talking about God, do I ask or expect them to stop? No. In fact I normally join in the chat, because I have no reason to take offense. And most of those people wont even cringe if I start talking about something that doesn't coincide with their beliefs. If it does bother them, they politely excuse themselves, or we just gently change the topic. No harm no foul. At the same time OP, if someone did tell me something I was doing was offensive to them in any way (not just religiously), and they were polite, or at least reasonable about it, I would have no problem respectfully stopping. If it was something unreasonable, however, that might be a different issue. If your friend said that he found 40k to be offensive and ask you to not talk about the fluff around him, that's reasonable (assuming that he did so in a polite manner". If he freaked out about it, and demanded you stop, never dare mention it in his presence again, and shunned you for it, that's different. Hard to explain, but basically, they shouldn't intentionally offend you in response to you unintentionally offended them.

Back to OP. When it comes to religion and 40k, the only time I had anyone nag me about it was an atheist (one from the group I mentioned above), and he pestered me about being an atheist and playing a SM army, because it was ridiculous that I play an army that worshiped a God. He would go on quite the rants, and every time someone would talk about 40k where we were playing magic, he would pipe up with something along the lines of "If you want to talk about that crap, take it over there and talk to the closet (insert religion here), he's into that stuff". In fairness, the more I think about it, the guy was just a (insert negative characteristic here).

In the end, people are free to believe what they want. And they are free to express and practice their beliefs (within the confines of the law). What they are not free to do, is oppress other people with their beliefs. If someone does that, just tell talk to them about it. If they cannot be reasonable about it, and you cannot come to a reasonable conclusion, just don't be around that person anymore. I have 3 relative that have not met my 6 month old daughter(and more that were not at my wedding), that live in the same city, because they cannot get over that I have different beliefs. Each one I talked to about it, and I tried to come up with a compromise, but in the end they made the choice to be that way, not me.

I personally find the Warhammer 40k universe to be particularly abhorrent to my religion of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I push through it for the all the women this hobby gets me.

JWhex wrote:
In a country where we honor religious freedom it is bad form to say things like certain people cannot separate fantasy from fiction when you are talking about religion.

Sorry, but when you say that casting "fireball" in D&D is an occult ritual to summon demons into your life then yes, you have trouble separating fantasy from reality.

JWhex wrote:
To the OP, that was an interesting encounter, I wonder if your friend is representative of Mormons in general in regard to this issue.

He's not. I suspect if one of his Mormon friends were there he would have been just as likely to turn to him and say: "Dude... it's FICTION"

Becoming offended by the background of this game makes about as much sense as going to watch Wrath of the Titans and getting offended by the in movie depiction of greek gods.

 Blacksails wrote:
I personally find the Warhammer 40k universe to be particularly abhorrent to my religion of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I push through it for the all the women this hobby gets me.

In my world religions studies elective, our final project was to either do a major research project on an existing religion, or create our own. There were a lot of guidelines for creating our own, but I made up the computer God. Oh man I went right out on it too, it was several times bigger and more detailed than the requirements. I did it from a serious stand point. I portrayed viruses to be the spawn of the great evil. The only tenants of my religion were written in binary. My religion had a calendar based of the beginning of computer time (January 1, 1970 by our western calendar). All numerical references were base 2 or base 16, with a few base 8, but I expressly avoided base 10. There were a lot of absolutes, true and false, 0 and 1, and the number of evil was -1, outside the bounds of absolutes, and explained down through the concept of negative integer resulting from an overflow, wrapping back to negative. One day I'll post it online, get feedback and work it up over and over for people to get a good look at.

My religion teacher loved it(he was Islamic in case you care). He said I should print hundreds of copies, and leave them everywhere, and eventually people in the distant future would find it and believe it was a real religion, or people in the not to distant future might turn it into an actual religion.

I did think it was silly and needlessly inflammatory for them to refer to the Grey Knights chapter as 666. Doesn't it seem like they were just asking for people to get offended?

I kind was offended (I'm a Christian) when read about the Grey Knights' chapter number was 666, but after a bit I found it kind of funny and history is full of symbols that one religion, cult, or society has taken from another religion or whatever and just gave it a different meaning. So in the end for me at least not a big deal.

I think that was quite clever actually. They're a chapter dedicated to fighting daemons and their assigned number is the number of the Anti-christ.

I find no conflict or issues, its just a game. And there are many more other sci-fi/fantasy out there more offensive towards Christianity than 40k.

 Blacksails wrote:
I personally find the Warhammer 40k universe to be particularly abhorrent to my religion of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I push through it for the all the women this hobby gets me.

His noodly appendage must apparently guide the dice of the faithful.