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The official description of the Orks marks them as the most numerous group in the galaxy. However, the Imperial Guard description marks the IG as the largest military organization ever created. So I wanted some clarification: When talking about the Orks, are they referring to the entire Ork ecosystem, or just to Boyz and Grotz? If it is the all encompassing Orkosystem, that would make more sense right?

Well, I suppose with Imperial guard the key word is "Military Organization". Orks are better described as bands of raiders rather than a proper military.

In Military Strength i would say Orcs.

In overall Population.. not sure but still guess Orcs.

Because Orcs can be descriped with Too fething MANY!

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, I suppose with Imperial guard the key word is "Military Organization". Orks are better described as bands of raiders rather than a proper military.

Probably this.
IG are an actual military.

Orks fight as a cross between a pub crawl/holy crusade, and don't really give a toss about organisation.

Yeah, Organisation and Ork in the same sentence is a brain-strainer, outside of Stormboyz.

Orks are by far the most numerous, and everything Ork is dangerous down to the fungi around the Drops, but they aren't a military organisation so much as a heaving mass of up-gunned fungus with a grudge..

We gotz Orkanization, which is betta.

Considering the way they reproduce and the fact that the Imperium has evidence of Orks being in entire other galaxies, I would say the Orks vastly outnumber humanity.

Also there is the warning that if the orks ever united they would crush mankind, so they must have more overall power than the IG, Imperial Navy, Space Marines etc. to achieve this.

Yeah pretty much anywhere mankind has gone in the galazy the orks are found. They are far the most numerous but their fractious nature makes any type of concerted effort nearly impossible, thus why they'll never rule. Everything about them is built for dominance, except their brain lol.

Orks have separate military organizations. Yes, there are clans, but they are not united together massively. There are Freebooters, outcasts, wanderers, and not to mention thousands of random Waaaghs. Plus, there are feral Orks scattered throughout the galaxy, mostly on planets that the Orks have already decimated. Numerous group means pure mass of numbers. Military organisation means mass of soldiers united under a single banner. There are IG regiments all throughout the galaxy, but they all still fight only for Emperor, and Imperium. Orks will blast the opposite clan in the face unless there's a hefty sack of teef and a good fight in a deal.

I highly doubt Ork population would put a dent in the human pop. Two reasons, the IG pop can gather in numbers that can fight off or even cleanse Orks and IG is maybe 10% of the pop. And second they can't reach mega-saturation (ie billions in a single city, nevertheless a world) due to technology constraints and inevitable inter-tribe fighting. Whereas orks are 100% 'military' fighting force that just happens to farm/ build as a hobby. There's so much counter-productive fluff out there whose to say one individual Ork writer dint go too far with creative license.. It's not like its all proof-read by Jervis Johnson himself (even he's 'rewritten history' before).


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 Deunstephe wrote:
... There are IG regiments all throughout the galaxy, but they all still fight only for Emperor, and the Imperium...

Da Fug?? What twaddle speak is this? Have you even paid attention to the last.. um.. I don't know.. 10,000 years???...

 Spazamataz wrote:
I highly doubt Ork population would put a dent in the human pop. Two reasons, the IG pop can gather in numbers that can fight off or even cleanse Orks and IG is maybe 10% of the pop. And second they can't reach mega-saturation (ie billions in a single city, nevertheless a world) due to technology constraints and inevitable inter-tribe fighting. Whereas orks are 100% 'military' fighting force that just happens to farm/ build as a hobby. There's so much counter-productive fluff out there whose to say one individual Ork writer dint go too far with creative license.. It's not like its all proof-read by Jervis Johnson himself (even he's 'rewritten history' before).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deunstephe wrote:
... There are IG regiments all throughout the galaxy, but they all still fight only for Emperor, and the Imperium...

Da Fug?? What twaddle speak is this? Have you even paid attention to the last.. um.. I don't know.. 10,000 years???...

It has been said that if all Orks united under a single banner, there's no way the IoM would be able to stop them.

That mega saturation of bilions in a single city? Mostly civilians. You try gathering that billion civilians to fight Orks. If the IG already has problems facing Orks, imagine civilians who aren't trained.

Every single Ork knows how to fight, is born to fight and destroy because it's hardwired into them, it's instinct. Every single one of them in a challenge to more than a human. The only good thing is that they love fighting so much, they will never gather under a single banner.

Not only that, conside the IoM size. Can you imagine the time it would take to move all available forces to stop the biggest WAAAAGH! there ever was? And even if by some miracle they did, the IoM would be attacked in other areas because Chaos / Tau / Dark Eldar (raiders at least) sure as frak would use that window of opportunity.

There's a couple of bits of fluff mentioning the Orks as the most successful race in the galaxy, usually followed by the 'if they teamed up everyone is dead'

Good thing they'll never team up.

 Spazamataz wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deunstephe wrote:
... There are IG regiments all throughout the galaxy, but they all still fight only for Emperor, and the Imperium...

Da Fug?? What twaddle speak is this? Have you even paid attention to the last.. um.. I don't know.. 10,000 years???...

Maybe some of the fluff changed since my edition of the rulebook, but anything that's not traitorous or forgotten still serves the Imperium. I also kind of just wanted to incorporate a DoW quote since I had just finished playing some.

The Traitor Guard would beg to differ. Not to mention the IG who go Renegade. Same with the Navy and the SM, for that matter. Seems another fleet or Chapter breaks away from the IoM every other week.

As said before, the key here is "Military organization" versus "Entire civilization of armed and dangerous homicidal maniacs".

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

It has been said that if all Orks united under a single banner, there's no way the IoM would be able to stop them.

It's also been said that this almost did happen under a powerful Warboss known only as The Beast and it's only a matter of time until a similar one rises up. And that might have already started to happen with Ghazghkull's rise to power.

It's also been said that Ork unity is 'purely theoretical'

orks have unity! they follow the biggest and the strongest. until he gets krumped or shot. then they follow the next biggest and baddest.

Or sometimes they unify around their common interests. going fast, stealing, etc.

Icculus wrote:
orks have unity! they follow the biggest and the strongest. until he gets krumped or shot. then they follow the next biggest and baddest.

Or sometimes they unify around their common interests. going fast, stealing, etc.

Those are WAAAGHS, Clans, and kults. And even clans don't follow each other all the time.

Orks where not built to lead, however as spores can stay in stasis a very long time, the scary though it somewhere out there uncovered for millions of years are the spores programmed to lead.

I liked it better when there were female Orks. Somewhere along the line, GW decided to emasculate the Orks and turn them all into trans-vegetables.

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
I liked it better when there were female Orks. Somewhere along the line, GW decided to emasculate the Orks and turn them all into trans-vegetables.

Females... when? i can't recall any of this... even when playing sec ed.

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
I liked it better when there were female Orks. Somewhere along the line, GW decided to emasculate the Orks and turn them all into trans-vegetables.

There were never female Orks in 40k. They're not even trans-vegetables now, which, IMO, sounds a bit offensive. In the past an Ork yoof went and "discovered" himself, including his sexual characteristics, and mated with another Ork (who has also just "discovered" themself). Then they'd come back with a gross Ork baby. Nobody liked that, so GW made them give off spores. Orks also used to have green blood, but it was very annoying to produce and, again, nobody liked it.

 Deunstephe wrote:

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
I liked it better when there were female Orks. Somewhere along the line, GW decided to emasculate the Orks and turn them all into trans-vegetables.

There were never female Orks in 40k. They're not even trans-vegetables now, which, IMO, sounds a bit offensive. In the past an Ork yoof went and "discovered" himself, including his sexual characteristics, and mated with another Ork (who has also just "discovered" themself). Then they'd come back with a gross Ork baby. Nobody liked that, so GW made them give off spores. Orks also used to have green blood, but it was very annoying to produce and, again, nobody liked it.

I dont know where you came up with this idea but it is not correct. I have the book "WAAARGH the Orks" which is soley about Ork Kulture, is delightfully funny and crazy in the old school Ork way and was written by Stillman and Ansell so could really be considered canon if you want. It is a 104 page looseleaf tome that is probably the most in depth piece of background material that GW has produced since it is exclusively background and no rules.

Here is a brief description of the Ork life cycle.

When the toughest Orks survive for a long time in the final stage of their life they become feral. It is only in the feral stage that they can breed. The book specifically says they do not have separate genders.

Roughly half the Feral Orks develop a marsupial pouch in which the Ork whelp is born. They whelp is raised and then the adult Ork dies.

Now this particular style of reproduction in animals is well known and there are lots of examples in nature. The scientific name is parthenogenesis, which means virgin birth. Species that are parthenogenetic are considered to be and also named "All female species".

This leads us to one of the great unappreciated ironies of 40k background as it also applies to the revised Ork spore biology, Orks are an all female species.

Let me repeat that for emphasis:

ORKS ARE AN ALL FEMALE SPECIES!!

roflmao

While the idea of a parthenogenetic race is cool and all, it does not match Orks. It simply could not keep up with battle loses, or well Ork infighting for that matter as many 1 in 100 breed.

As for Orks currently being female, that is incorrect. They lack any sex organs and are not parthenogenetic.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
While the idea of a parthenogenetic race is cool and all, it does not match Orks. It simply could not keep up with battle loses, or well Ork infighting for that matter as many 1 in 100 breed.

As for Orks currently being female, that is incorrect. They lack any sex organs and are not parthenogenetic.

Nope you are wrong, animals and plants that clone themselves are referred to by scientists as all female species. Orks clone themselves in the old fluff as I described or in the new fluff as spores.

Also, asexual reproduction replenishes a population much faster than sexual reproduction so you have things backwards in regard to population growth.

JWhex wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
While the idea of a parthenogenetic race is cool and all, it does not match Orks. It simply could not keep up with battle loses, or well Ork infighting for that matter as many 1 in 100 breed.

As for Orks currently being female, that is incorrect. They lack any sex organs and are not parthenogenetic.

Nope you are wrong, animals and plants that clone themselves are referred to by scientists as all female species. Orks clone themselves in the old fluff as I described or in the new fluff as spores.

Also, asexual reproduction replenishes a population much faster than sexual reproduction so you have things backwards in regard to population growth.

No, on both counts.Asexual is not always called female, they lack any sex organs unlike cloning animals. They have no sex, no more then moss does which if I recall is not labeled as females. They are not earth born critters, they are not animals or mammals or really any earth classifications. parthenogenetic species have sex organs, female sex organs.

On growth, I was talking about the old style vs new style. In the old style as you put it, only the biggest and baddest orks have offspring then die. which would mean they can never breed fast enough to cover combat loses or infighting loses. While Spore breeding not only grows orks but everything needed by orks at a much greater exchange rate.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
While the idea of a parthenogenetic race is cool and all, it does not match Orks. It simply could not keep up with battle loses, or well Ork infighting for that matter as many 1 in 100 breed.

As for Orks currently being female, that is incorrect. They lack any sex organs and are not parthenogenetic.

Nope you are wrong, animals and plants that clone themselves are referred to by scientists as all female species. Orks clone themselves in the old fluff as I described or in the new fluff as spores.

Also, asexual reproduction replenishes a population much faster than sexual reproduction so you have things backwards in regard to population growth.

No, on both counts.Asexual is not always called female, they lack any sex organs unlike cloning animals. They have no sex, no more then moss does which if I recall is not labeled as females. They are not earth born critters, they are not animals or mammals or really any earth classifications. parthenogenetic species have sex organs, female sex organs.

On growth, I was talking about the old style vs new style. In the old style as you put it, only the biggest and baddest orks have offspring then die. which would mean they can never breed fast enough to cover combat loses or infighting loses. While Spore breeding not only grows orks but everything needed by orks at a much greater exchange rate.

I dont think you know what the term sex means in regard to the discussion about varied reproduction strategies in the animal and plant kingdoms. It doesnt have anything to do with secondary sexual organs. If an animal or plant is reproducing using meiosis it is reproducing sexually whether it has any "sex organs" or not. You say that Orks dont reproduce sexually but in fact you dont know that, you only know from the background that there is only one gender.

You could not be more wrong about moss plants. There are male and female individual moss plants and there are moss plants that have both male and female sex organs on the same individual plant. Mosses can reproduce both sexually and asexually.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

lack any sex organs unlike cloning animals

There are so many species in the animal kingdom that contradict this statement that one barely knows where to start.

All of the more complex species of animals that have a single gender are indeed commonly referred to as "all female species". Lizards, fish, salamanders; look it up its not hard to find. One thing is absolutely sure, Orks are not male, that is indisputable. They do not produce sperm, they produce some kind of spore which essentially the same as an egg and the production of eggs is why it is reasonable to label them as equivalent to terrestrial (Earth) females.

Ok I could be wrong on moss as I pulled it out at random, I do know there ate asexual plants and I have never in any book seen them labeled as "female"

You say I do not in fact know if they produce sexually, which is true and the same goes for you. The books do not say they have one gender, it says they seem male to humans.

They produce spores every moment, all the time, from the moment they crawl from the earth to the bust of billions upon death. They unlike asexual planets never stop spreading spores. Its simply something they do, like breathing or producing bloodcells.

as fantasy based as 40k is, Orks are wondrously sci-fi in many aspects. They simply do not conform to earth based classification on reproduction. They are not mammals, they are not plants, they are something else, that simply does not fit within earth based classifications.