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Sorry folks --

Wrong page to post...my bad.

You should know that this doesn't belong in News & Rumours.

Your right BrookM..

Mod please move to discussions.

Thanks !!

I agree. I am not interested in any of these kickstarters but they make reading N&R so annoying due to their sheer number :/

Or just search discussions and see that this has been talked about plenty of times.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Sorry guys,

Im just tired of getting BOMBED by the KICKSTARTER stuff on the Rumors / News page.

Does anyone else feel the same?

I've been wondering for awhile now how to handle it, as it can be news, but also is ubiquitous enough that it can crowd out other non-KS news. Since it also goes on the legth of the KS campaign it stays up on the front page as well. It does seem to be an issue, though I'm not sure there is a simple answer, but I wouldn't mind a separate area for KS.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521285.page

We are a minature games forum, they are minature game news, no problem here. What news does everybody want that is getting "crowded out by KS"?

 d-usa wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521285.page

We are a minature games forum, they are minature game news, no problem here. What news does everybody want that is getting "crowded out by KS"?

It isn't crowded out per se, but the number of KS threads makes News and Rumors seem like the title of the forum should be 'Kickstarter News/Updates + occasional other news'. It could also just be that having 'Kickstarter' at the front gives a sense of homogeneity to it, whereas all the other news and rumors seem random.

Warhammer Fantasy
Kickstarter - A
Kickstarter - B
Warhammer 40k
Kickstarter - C
Warma/Hordes


As you can see there are six separate titles on six separate things, but it gives the impression that there is Kickstarter threads and three others.

Current total on page 1: 11 Kickstarters.

So two questions:

1) how are KS news about a product being developed different than any other thread about a company developing a product.

2) what news do you guys feel are "crowded out of the section" because of kickstarters?

Or is it just a case of: I don't care about something and I think I shouldn't even have to look at that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So people can't read titles?

We started putting the Kickstarter front and center in titles because people were complaining that they had a hard time separating Kickstarter news from other news.

So people don't like having Kickstarter in the title?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And like I said before, currently there are 11 KS threads. There are 50 posts per page. So it's 22% Kickstarters right now, hardly "Kickstarter N&R and occasionally something else".

It still is 39 N&R threads with GW being the company with the most news, and 11 more threads about 11 separate games funded via Kickstarter.

 d-usa wrote:
So people can't read titles?

Of course people can read titles, that was never the point, and I think you know it.

 d-usa wrote:
So people don't like having Kickstarter in the title?

I don't see how you got that from what I said unless you are willfully misrepresenting my statements. I am just trying to understand why people might think that Kickstarter is getting to much play in News and Rumors. I think having, at least the appearance of, uniformity is one of those reasons.

And I don't think having Kickstarter 'is a problem' unless somehow you are interpreting this as a call to eliminate Kickstarter threads. If someone feels that Kickstarter threads are becoming so numerous that perhaps they need a separate section. It isn't as if there isn't precedent either. Video Games is Off Topic, but it gets a separate section from Off Topic. Modeling doesn't really need four separate areas either, and yet, it has them. I am not saying we should do this, but I don't think broaching it is entirely unreasonable either.

But it's not Kickstarter news.

It's news about companies making new games and products. They are just funded via Kickstarter. They are still actual news & rumors. It's no different then any other thread releasing plans, ideas, greens, sketches, etc.

Before GW clamped down in their rumors we always had more GW threads (one company) than KS threads (multiple companies). But we never had all these complaints about "I'm tired of 11 GW threads, make them their own section!".

What 11 threads are people missing out on by having 11 KS threads?

I'm starting to think you aren't reading what I am posting, as you are saying what I said already, but in such a way as to make me believe you aren't realizing that it the point I was making.

All I am saying is that we it might not be horrible to talk about it, if for nothing else to centralize information on Kickstarters. Yes, they are seperate projects from different companies, but all are united in that they all are Kickstarter projects and not 'new pics of eldar' or 'rumors of new Trollblood units'.

Considering this is a Warhammer fan website and not a Kickstarter fan website, I don't believe anyone would ever complain that there are Games Workshop rumors dominating the News and Rumors section, and it seems a bit obtuse to act otherwise.

It's not a warhammer fansite anymore either though.

That's why we have "Dakka discussion" and "WFB discussions" and "40k discussions". DakkaDakka is also the official forum of two separate companies.

DakkaDakka has 46 subforums, 14 are GW focused. So we have a GW fan-site with 32 sub-forums that are dedicated to things that have nothing to do with GW. I know Dakka started out 40K and GW focused, but it has grown quite a bit away from that focus.

And KS is not the focus of those 11 threads to begin with. It's the companies that make the product that are the focus, not their funding. And news are news, why discriminate?

 Ahtman wrote:
Considering this is a Warhammer fan website and not a Kickstarter fan website,

This is not a Warhammer fan website. It's a Wargaming fan website.

A Kickstarter is just one of the ways that companies can release new product. News about a wargaming Kickstarter is ultimately no less relevant to the News and Rumours board than news about a prerelease, or a vague rumour about 'Codex X' being due for release sometime next year, maybe...


We made a concession with Kickstarters in that once they have been funded we move the discussion to the relevant sub-board. But while they are still news, they belong on the news page.

What about clamping down on "We Might Have a Kickstarter" threads? There are now 3 threads on Kickstarters that haven't actually happened yet. One has been on the front page for over 3 months.

If I post in N&R that I'm going to start a miniature company that makes butts with wings, and attach a crayon drawing of it to my post, would it be locked and I'd be told to post when I have something to show for it, or can I continually bump it month after month after month with more winged butt drawings to keep it in the top 10 N&R posts?

Do we clamp down on "somebody has a license to make something" threads? We have had plenty of those.

And what about all these rumors threads that don't even have crayon drawings of butts that we allow to remain open?

On second thought; I was under the impression - wrongly, it seems - that N&R threads that don't contain much actual meat to them are locked and told to post when they have something to show.

So, still hope for this concept art to become a reality:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Do we clamp down on "somebody has a license to make something" threads? We have had plenty of those.

I actually kind of concur that these aren't actually, yet, news. I guess they technically are rumor. The problem is there are plenty of companies that are happy to pick up a license and then sit on it until it lapses without attempting to produce anything - Microsoft did this for many years to the Mechwarrior license.

 Ouze wrote:

Spoiler:

I'd buy it. When does the KS start?

Will there be alternate poses like clenched tight?

In the end it is news despite the funding model. Dakka shouldn't be held responsible for a funding type that the industry happens to be (ab)using.

For what it's worth, with 11 KS threads currently on page 1, here are the 11 news threads that are currently being "crowded out" (ignoring crowded out KS threads) and the news that are crowding them out.

1) New Minis by Legendarion --- Secret Weapon Tablescapes
2) Infinity News & Rumors --- Mantic Deadzone
3) 40K RPG Thread --- Tome of Horrors
4) Wargames Tabletop Sale, Bristol ---Crocodile Games
5) Spellcrow Sci-Fi Bits --- Escenorama Terrain
6) Battleroad Games and Hobbies Sale Announcement --- Robotech
7) Malifaux 2nd Edition --- Fractured Dimensions
8) GW Raising Prices? --- Itars Workshop
9) Mongoose News Thread --- Teramyyd
10) Locked Dublicate Defiance Thread --- Alien Dungeon
11) Blackwater Gulch News ---Kensei

The newest thread that was "crowded out" was last updated 3 days ago, the oldest of these was updated 4 days ago. 2 of these threads are locked, and the remaining 9 of them are just one update away from being back on page 1. But what makes the sale at Battleroad Games and Hobbies more news worthy than a new game being worked on by Robotech. What makes Infinity more important than Deadzone? What makes the new minis by Legendarion more newsworthy than the Secret Weapon Tablescapes? Is there anything that makes them more valid other than they are not KS funded projects?

There are currently 7 GW threads "crowding out" other News & Rumors. Why don't we get rid of those?

There are no real good complaints against Kickstarters:

1) There is no pictures of a finished product yet: There are no pictures of finished products on half of the GW rumor threads.
2) They are just talking about planning a KS: There are just talking about maybe possibly releasing [GW army] in [random date]
3) There are X KS threads: There are X (+/-) 5 GW threads at any given time.
4) KS threads are keeping news I care about from page 1: GW threads are keeping news I care about from page 1.

What every one of these boil down to is this: "I don't like KS threads, and I don't think I should have to look at them".

1) There is nothing preventing you from clicking down to page 2, or even (the horror) page 3.
2) KS threads are on page 1 because people care about them. They talk about them. They want updates about them. They care about the news in them (and it is a N&R forum) and as long as people care about them they will remain on page one.
3) Every thread about news has the exact same opportunity to be on page 1. If people are interested in the production of flying butts they will talk about them and keep it on page 1. If it is a crappy KS then it will fall off the radar.
4) Page 1 currently has 50 pages of news dating back over the last 2 days, the other threads are not crowded out because of KS threads. They are on page 2 because nobody has talked about them since 2013/05/09 23:01:34

 Ouze wrote:
If I post in N&R that I'm going to start a miniature company that makes butts with wings, and attach a crayon drawing of it to my post, would it be locked and I'd be told to post when I have something to show for it, or can I continually bump it month after month after month with more winged butt drawings to keep it in the top 10 N&R posts?

This sort of argument makes me cranky.

The fact that we allow a thread to continue talking about a pending kickstarter that has been pending a little longer than anyone expected in no way obligates us to allow any old nonsense that people can come up with but have no intention of following through on.

 d-usa wrote:
currently being "crowded out"

I love how you are grabbing onto one statement and hammering it into the ground without contextualizing the conversation. I tried discussing why people might feel that way, and you keep harping on 'crowded out' like it's your mantra. This isn't the first time this sentiment has been brought up and I am curious as to why. I wasn't even really that engaged until you went all hellbent to shut the conversation down, and acting like people were donkey-caves for bringing it up in the first place.

This isn't the first time this has come up, and mostly likely won't be the last, unless we try to figure out why it does keep coming up. I personally don't care one way or the other as to what is done, and the fact I never created a thread or said that something had to be done would normally be a clue as to that fact. What I do care about is understanding why it is an issue, and now, also why you seem to think we shouldn't even talk about it.

It keeps coming up because some people for some reason think that kickstarters aren't as newsworthy as other gaming related news, or because they lump all kickstarters into the same category and so feel that they take up more space than they deserve on the page.


The idea keeps being rejected because we don't agree with either of these premises.

Obliviously the ones calling for it, repeatedly, think that, I just don't see why they think that. Just being pissy at them hasn't stopped it, so maybe a new approach may be needed.

The 'we don't agree' has a very Locutus of Borg tinge to it.

The biggest reasons (that I can see) why Crowdfunding threads shouldn't be pulled out of News and Rumors is because.
1) If you pull them out of N&R, you are acknowledging/saying that they are not news or rumors, when clearly they are. I do agree that the "planning on a kickstarter" is stretching the definition of news/rumors especially when there isn't a date attached. As an example, the Mantic Deadzone Kicstarter thread, one currently bobbing near the top of N&R, has more "solid" information about it than the Eldar Rumors thread, which hasn't updated it's title since mid April when the plastic Farseer sprue was "leaked". Now granted that could easily be a case of the OP being more involved with the thread than others, but I'm interested in both Eldar rumors and Deadzone, yet Deadzone has provided me with more news and or rumors about the game. GW policies aside, the KS threads are providing more news and or rumors than compared to the Privateer Press threads about Hordes releases or the new faction coming out.

So I ask, which thread has a more legitimate claim to be in N&R?

2) By removing KS threads from N&R, you are doing something that the site mods and admins try not to do, which is split site traffic.

Almost any time someone suggests a new subforum, it gets shot down because someone mentions that there isn't enough site traffic to make it worth it, and you're splitting readership. Granted I'm sure (with some work) Lego could look at News and Rumors traffic (i.e. number of views vs number of posts) before KS threads started to "take over" and compare them to say the past 6 months (just throwing it out there). If News & Rumors could survive with the lack of views and posts from KS threads, then maybe it's something to look in to, but again. Splitting the KS threads into their own subforums seems to be saying that they're not news or rumors, of which they clearly are.

 Ahtman wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
currently being "crowded out"

I love how you are grabbing onto one statement and hammering it into the ground without contextualizing the conversation. I tried discussing why people might feel that way, and you keep harping on 'crowded out' like it's your mantra. This isn't the first time this sentiment has been brought up and I am curious as to why. I wasn't even really that engaged until you went all hellbent to shut the conversation down, and acting like people were donkey-caves for bringing it up in the first place.

This isn't the first time this has come up, and mostly likely won't be the last, unless we try to figure out why it does keep coming up. I personally don't care one way or the other as to what is done, and the fact I never created a thread or said that something had to be done would normally be a clue as to that fact. What I do care about is understanding why it is an issue, and now, also why you seem to think we shouldn't even talk about it.

And all I am asking is why are these post that would be on page 1 if we moved the KS away more newsworthy than the Kickstarters. If you are curious why, then just read all the previous threads about them.

Fact is that OP, and previous OPs, have never given a good explanation for wanting to move Kickstarters into a separate forum other than "I don't like reading about them and they take up too much space in the forum". I've addressed every argument we usually get (it''s not news/too many of one topic/stuff gets pushed off page 1) and nobody ever puts up better counter-arguments.

It does come down to people simply not wanting to read about news if KS is somehow involved.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
If I post in N&R that I'm going to start a miniature company that makes butts with wings, and attach a crayon drawing of it to my post, would it be locked and I'd be told to post when I have something to show for it, or can I continually bump it month after month after month with more winged butt drawings to keep it in the top 10 N&R posts?

This sort of argument makes me cranky.

The fact that we allow a thread to continue talking about a pending kickstarter that has been pending a little longer than anyone expected in no way obligates us to allow any old nonsense that people can come up with but have no intention of following through on.

How dare you impugn my motives, sir? I'll have you know I have every intention of following through with my project. In fact, I've already got a prototype to show.



In fact, I'm just waiting for my Amazon payment setup to finish to launch my kickstarter. So, technically, my project is more real than theirs.

All joking aside though - now that we officially now have pre-kickstarter kickstarter threads, is there ever any intention to sort of... I dunno, moderate the threads to separate the wheat for the chaff? How do you determine if a project s "real" or not? I mean, this is a problem that I imagine is going to snowball over time.

I initially partook of a lot of these "lets make a kickstarter forum" threads when they started, as I'm sure you remember, but you and Yakface convinced me that indeed, kickstarters in general are no more or less newsy than other projects. But pre-kickstarters? I'm yet unconvinced.

Pre-Kickstarter threads are equal to 'some guy on warseer's brother's best friend's Dad works at a GW and said that Squats are next to be released!' Rumors threads.

At least the Pre-Kickstarter threads lead to something.

Here is the OP of the last few threads about this subject:

 Twoshoesvans wrote:
Remember the days when you could stroll through the "News and Rumors" section without being mugged by some kickstarter page? Let's bring those good days back. I propose that we make a separate forum for all the kickstarter pages. It's difficult to tell whose got information about GW or the hobby and who is trying to sell you something out of their garage.

Max

"I want to read about other things than Kickstarter"

 Oaka wrote:
I only log on about once a week, to check on news and rumors and such, but can Dakka please make a new forum for Kickstarters under News and Rumors? These different start-up projects continue to delay my precious internet browsing time. It's very precious, I assure you!

"I can't be wasting my time reading about KS funded projects"

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I spent 99% of my time in the News & Rumours section, but it's getting really annoying that half the threads in there are either Kickstarter or Indiegogo threads about different companies trying to get money for different projects. Could you please create a new section just for those types of threads?

There has never been even close to 50% crowdfunding threads. Until the last month or so there has almost always been more GW threads than KS threads. From the last few counts we have done it seems that KS threads on Page 1 have remained pretty constant actually, right around 20%. And that is not 20% of threads about one company (unlike the many times we have 20% of threads about GW), but 20% of threads about individual companies/games that just happen to utilize the same funding model.

How would it sound if we request a separate section for every company that takes Paypal?

 Ouze wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
If I post in N&R that I'm going to start a miniature company that makes butts with wings, and attach a crayon drawing of it to my post, would it be locked and I'd be told to post when I have something to show for it, or can I continually bump it month after month after month with more winged butt drawings to keep it in the top 10 N&R posts?

This sort of argument makes me cranky.

The fact that we allow a thread to continue talking about a pending kickstarter that has been pending a little longer than anyone expected in no way obligates us to allow any old nonsense that people can come up with but have no intention of following through on.

How dare you impugn my motives, sir? I'll have you know I have every intention of following through with my project. In fact, I've already got a prototype to show.

Spoiler:

Seriously, where can I get me one of those?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Fact is that OP, and previous OPs, have never given a good explanation for wanting to move Kickstarters into a separate forum other than "I don't like reading about them and they take up too much space in the forum". I've addressed every argument we usually get (it''s not news/too many of one topic/stuff gets pushed off page 1) and nobody ever puts up better counter-arguments.

It does come down to people simply not wanting to read about news if KS is somehow involved.

Do you want me to go get my "here's why we aren't doing a kickstarter forum" quote that I have posted in every one of these threads?