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One thing I keep seeing, hearing, and reading is tactics for necrons to handle Riptides. Looking at the stat line, it seems to me that the Riptide is not as powerful once tide up on close combat even though it is T6 W5 with a 2+ save.

This got me wondering though about how to tie it up and I started to wonder about a scarab swarm. A full swarm (10 bases for 150pts total) would yield 30 wounds and 4 attacks per base. Both scarabs and the riptide are WS2; however with the sheer number of attacks the scarabs have, the possibility of inflicting a wound is fairly high.

Best case scenarios, all survive and charge
50 attacks @ 4+ to hit = 25hits
6's to wound = 4 wounds that have to be save

In the event the riptide doesn't save, entropic strike occurs and the 2+ save disappears.

It's a gamble; however with the speed of the swarms moving across the table they should be able to reach the riptide and tie it up for a few turns.

Thoughts?

The problem is catching the riptide, who due to their ability to roll a silly number of dice for movement, is really hard to do.

I've yet to come acroos the Riptide in a fight, but as Kain said catching the pesky thing will be a nightmare. Plus I reckon that any Tau player worth his salt will target all speed units eg Scarabs first, meaning most likely you won't get close, but if you do the entropic strike plan is a good one especially if youve got units like Tesla immortals nearby to shoot it down if/when it escapes the Scarabs.
Or you could run a Lychguard unit with sword/shield and a lord with Scythe/Voidblade and a Tesseract Labyrinth (which will kill it easily once you've whittled it down)

Praetorians with voidblades? A little stronger and they have rending and entropic strike? I know they're not a fan favorite on dakkadakka, but they're a great unit.

Deathmarks.

(Hint: it's not immune to pinning)

Iranna.

Scarabs have a very good chance of catching the riptide, thanks to being beasts.

I wouldn't send them against the Riptide though, as attacks will ID the bases, and I doubt a full swarm will survive the turn they need to get to it.

The best thing to do is Tie up with Wraiths, take a wounded one down with deathmarks, or take care of their troops, and ignore the riptide best you can.

 Sasori wrote:
Scarabs have a very good chance of catching the riptide, thanks to being beasts.

I wouldn't send them against the Riptide though, as attacks will ID the bases, and I doubt a full swarm will survive the turn they need to get to it.

The best thing to do is Tie up with Wraiths, take a wounded one down with deathmarks, or take care of their troops, and ignore the riptide best you can.

Whilst I do agree with everything you've said, I feel that Deathmarks with a Veiltek would be the easiest way to mitigate a Riptide.

A squad of 7 Deathmarks should chip 1-2 wounds off of the big guy if the get within Rapid-fire range and mark it.

Riptides are also Ld 8 (if I'm not mistaken, never played against one ) and so forcing a Pinning test would give you a 1/4 chance of shutting the big beastie down for a turn.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Scarabs have a very good chance of catching the riptide, thanks to being beasts.

I wouldn't send them against the Riptide though, as attacks will ID the bases, and I doubt a full swarm will survive the turn they need to get to it.

The best thing to do is Tie up with Wraiths, take a wounded one down with deathmarks, or take care of their troops, and ignore the riptide best you can.

Whilst I do agree with everything you've said, I feel that Deathmarks with a Veiltek would be the easiest way to mitigate a Riptide.

A squad of 7 Deathmarks should chip 1-2 wounds off of the big guy if the get within Rapid-fire range and mark it.

Riptides are also Ld 8 (if I'm not mistaken, never played against one ) and so forcing a Pinning test would give you a 1/4 chance of shutting the big beastie down for a turn.

Iranna.

Well, a Riptide really needs to be wounded for a squad of Deathmarks to take it down, unless you roll very well. They are also LD 9. It may be an idea to use the Nightmare Shroud instead of firing the Abssyal stave, as well.

 Iranna wrote:
Deathmarks.

(Hint: it's not immune to pinning)

Iranna.

Heh, I just had a vision of a Riptide curled up in the fetal position sucking it's thumb reading that.

 Sasori wrote:
Well, a Riptide really needs to be wounded for a squad of Deathmarks to take it down, unless you roll very well. They are also LD 9. It may be an idea to use the Nightmare Shroud instead of firing the Abssyal stave, as well.

You don't have to kill the Riptide in order to nullify it - even with only a 1/6 chance for it to fail its moral due to Ld9 - pinning it would result in it being seriously hampered.

The Nightmare Shroud would really help too.

Iranna.

I don't know, Scarabs supported by a Spider, would be a nasty problem for a riptide.

Anyone thought about Lychguard with Warscythes? Take a squad of these along with a Veiltek and an Overlord with MSS. You've got S7 Ap1 attacks, with the added bonus of the Mindshackes.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Anyone thought about Lychguard with Warscythes? Take a squad of these along with a Veiltek and an Overlord with MSS. You've got S7 Ap1 attacks, with the added bonus of the Mindshackes.

Then you have the problem of the Riptide just jumping 4d6" away during the Tau player's next turn.

Iranna.

Scarabs aren't good for this at all. The HBC will just tear them to shreds as it'll inflict instant death so even if they're only in sight for 2 turns (or one turn and 2 Riptides), they're going to die. Not to mention overwatch will kill yet more or the secondary weapons, all of which also really hurt. Honestly, Necrons have never really had a good way to deal with MCs, which will only be exacerbated by the new Eldar Wraithknight. I can't wait to see a battle report with 2 HBC riptides, 1 Wraithknight vs Necrons - I really don't know how they'd deal with a list like that at all barring winning on objectives (which would still be hard as there's 3 fast contesting MCs around). We'll see, but I predict a lot less Necrons at the top tables in tournaments now, though I still expect them to be there.

forget the fact the riptide fires a large blast weapon....at more then str 6.... and with markerlights to ignore cover... 1 riptide can wipe out the whole unit with 1 shot. a single well pl aced blast will catch 3-4 of the scarabs, wound on 2+ ignore cover, and since your vulnerable to blasts, thats 8 ID wounds. its missiles will finish off the others. then it can use its jsj to gtfo, and thats just the riptide. if there is others, or suits etc... well..

 DarthSpader wrote:
forget the fact the riptide fires a large blast weapon....at more then str 6.... and with markerlights to ignore cover... 1 riptide can wipe out the whole unit with 1 shot. a single well pl aced blast will catch 3-4 of the scarabs, wound on 2+ ignore cover, and since your vulnerable to blasts, thats 8 ID wounds. its missiles will finish off the others. then it can use its jsj to gtfo, and thats just the riptide. if there is others, or suits etc... well..

Q: If a base of models with the Swarms special rule suffers a Wound
from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon that would cause it to
suffer Instant Death, does the fact that Wound is doubled to two
Wounds mean that two bases should be removed instead of one?
(p43)
A: No

Scarabs would work to keep the Riptide locked in combat for a few turns, I doubt they could kill one.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Anyone thought about Lychguard with Warscythes? Take a squad of these along with a Veiltek and an Overlord with MSS. You've got S7 Ap1 attacks, with the added bonus of the Mindshackes.

They're far too easy to kill. T5 3+ is all well and good until you get plasma rifles etc etc opening at you, they'll die before you can get close 80% of the time. And if you insisted on this run, at least invest in a res orb and a phase shifter for the overlord or he's going down with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point eyjio made is valid, crons don't have many MC killers in the list especially fast ones (as my force finds every time I run into a flyrant). I think allies may be what's needed, but if they aren't available.......
Heavy Destroyers could do it given a couple of turns
Wraiths are great hold up units (and a D.Lord wraithwing could kill it)
Deathmarks with HfH could do it too, but you need rending to pull it off.

WTF .....

when did that come out???? that is a HUGE buff to swarms... holy christ!!!

GW must really be trying to sell warrior boxes then, because thats the only way to get scarabs...

edit: accidently hit post...

my theroy still stands however. with 10 models in a swarm, a riptides main weapon can still bake 4-5 of them in a shot, its missiles will take care of a few more. then finish them off with either a crisis team or whatever. (or missile drones on the riptide) LOTS of str 6+ in tau army and with alot of it getting the ability to ignore cover pretty easy, those scarabs are in for a rough time.

honestly, as necrons fighting a riptide, i would just get up in its face with a overlord. MSS,weave, warscythe and orb will make that riptide have a VERY bad day. if you can keep it protected a CCB using sweep attacks might also proove useful in cutting it down to size. failing that, just spam tesla destructers at it. yea, its got armor... but enough of those hitting it, will create a ton of wounds, and he WILL fail his fair share. heck, even tesla immortals should be able to shave off a few. but i wouldnt take scarabs JUST to deal with riptides... the tau have too many direct counters to them, that are still effective on other things, whereas the scarabs themselves only really serve use on vehicles, or large multiwound models. and they can die pretty easy to those.

For all the Internets crying about Necrons being OP they certainly have some bad match ups & +2/MC are one of them.

Other than piling on the wounds though weight of fire with Barges/NightScythes I have found the combo of a Tomb Stalker with Heavy Gauss Cannon & a Ghost Arc with 4-5 Lance Teks to be a fairly reliable at taking out +2 units & MCs. Its costly to be sure but the units can be used to wipe out tanks & other elite units from a distance.

Wraiths + D.Lord would wreak a Riptide but they need to get close & that normal means suffering a turn or 2 of Tau firepower.
Heavy Destroyers are costly & you only get 3 per Destroyer unit but with PE they have a good chance of causing wounds.
Deathmarks would need to get a lot of rends to be threatening a Riptide, they are more suited to taking out units with the Despair Cryptek.

That FAQ came out in April.

i would say wraiths are a gamble.

the riptide has a large blast, and wraith units are generally small. 1 shot will hit 3-4 of them, and its an ID weapon to the wraiths, so fail that 3+ and goodbye. as for the dlord, hes a touch more survivable, but again, a few well placed wounds from the missiles or the main cannon will give him a bad time. not to mention, crisis teams with plasma/fusion.

honestly, the biggest hurdle the crons have to jump when fighting tau is getting into effective range, then inflicting as much damage as possible while there. (because what IS there will take a TON of fire) tau can be very mobile with alot of jsj, and charging them is sort of a bad idea as well with the supporting fire rules. (unless you can catch something by itself, wich likley is something hard to actually catch)

now, that said, i think necrons best bet vrs tau is to play the speedy move around and shoot game. necrons can ALMOST match the number of shots, - where they lack is in low AP weapons. but honestly, with res orbs and RP, you can afford to take some hits from low AP weapons, because you get back up. the tau on the other hand DONT get back up. so - focus fire on the main threats. direct your whole army at that riptide, or unit of FW etc, and as the tau loose models the number of shots they put out gets less and less, while your guys just keep humming along. keep in mind that the tau end will be trying the same on you - focus fire and drop the unit. because if i can kill all the immortals in a unit they DONT get back up... so be mindful of that, and try to keep at least a few out of LOS to give you the chance for those ever important RP rolls. but i would avoid trying to rush and close to combat with tau using necrons, unless your ENTIRE force is CC - otherwise you will get isolated and picked off.

acranthrites+destroyer lord are probably the best thing you can use. T5 3+ 3W, with S6 AP2 guns and are jump infantry. They absorb the shooting of the riptide well, do some significant damage with those melta guns, especially if he nova charged the gun, then can tie him up for the rest of the game with a large chance to kill him via the destroyer lord. Also a TAC unit, since those acantrites are stupid good vs any targets.

I kind of get the feeling that Solar Pulse(s) + Triarch Stalker(s) + H. Destroyers/Doomsday Arks would really be able to come into their own here...

Something like the following might work?:

Imotekh
Pulsetek

Overlord
Pulsetek

T Stalker
T Stalker

Warriors Ghost Ark
Warriors Ghost Ark

H. Destroyers
H. Destroyers

Doomsday Ark

As jy2's battle report showed, anything trying to assault the Tau (Wraiths, Scarabs, Lychguard, Praetorians, etc.) is going to have a hard time.

It looks like the best option for dealing with the Riptide in particular is to try to out shoot it, or use some manner of Necron trickery.
Has anybody considered the Tremor-tek yet? That whole forcing it into difficult terrain thing might have some merit, if you're worried about it trying to get away.

Tremortek is a good slowdown, and the harp of Dissonance has Entropic Strike if you fancy a crack at its armour save, but it'll still obliterate with shooting. Perhaps an allied psyker with Enfeeble and a Transdimensional Beamer? Especially if it stacks, because if the blighter lives your Wraiths (with Whip Coils on at least one), can cakewalk it with low Toughness.

Carnal Scarabs from the new IA12 have shred and rend. That will obliterate the riptide if they can get to it.

I like the scarab idea, because you are forcing tau to target a 30 wound 150 point fast attack choice. I'd rather give up wounds at 5 points each than 13 points each.

-Matt

Destroyer Court. Long range, S8 shots, 1 re-roll, get back up at 4+ even if they are denied their cover.

Heavy Destroyers can also do a good job with high moblity, S9, PE and RP.

Scarabs will tie a riptide down as long as they can engage it (tremortek has been mentioned as a good tiedown) and possibly get its armour gone ready for it to die later. Heavy Destroyers need 2 turns at least but they'll do a fantastic job (combine it with a heat ray/targeting relay and you could just kill it in a turn).

5 carnal scarabs.
25A
16.7 hits
2.7 rending wounds
2.3 additional rends with rerolls
5 wounds done at I3. If the riptide didnt have his 3++, hes dead.

Riptide has a 5++ unless the reactor goes nova and they roll the 3++ which is rare. one this i like to do to those pesky M.C. is deep strike a monolith near by spit out my Lychguard with warscythe or Scarabs or Wraiths (these are the three units I have that i like to use against termies and dreadknights) if you feel you need some extra bang deep strike Deathmarks too. With the new monolith portal rules it can deep strike than teleport units making it better for allowing your Lychguard or Scarabs to hide and than be puked out to assault the enemy. now they cant assault right away from the monolith but you can usually get them between a rock and a hard place shooting them down or pinning them down.