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EDIT: while the thread title is similar to a current thread, it's a different topic

 Happyjew wrote:
Long story is what constitutes when a unit arrives from reserves?

This conversation began in a different thread, but I thought I'd start a new thread, to avoid derailing the other.

So the FAQ let us know that Scrier's Gaze could actually affect Reserves and Outflank, but that entry also pushed me in the direction that no, units which arrive from Reserve that turn cannot benefit from
blessings. Outflank's wording ("When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves") seems to lend credence to the idea that a psyker previously on the table can cast a blessing on a unit the turn it arrives.

So the question is, does the unit arrive with the roll, or are roll and arrival two different things?

See the Rulebook FAQ, pg 7

The rules for Reserves, Outflank and Deep Strike have a few things to say about arrival:

1) If the roll is X or more, that unit arrives this turn.
2) When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.
3) Deep Strike instead deals with the deployment of the unit in a slightly different way, after rolling for the arrival of units.
4) Outflank is rolled for when the unit arrives from Reserves.

Putting this all together, the Reserve Roll only determines which units will actually be arriving, however the deployment/movement onto the board is the arrival. As such since there is no restriction on rolling all Outflank rolls at the same time, I am of the opinion that Blessings can be cast on a unit that arrived from reserves that turn. Unless of course the caster himself also arrived.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
See the Rulebook FAQ, pg 7

The question isn't what happens first - it is "Do units arriving from reserve move onto the table with the "Start of Turn" actions (such as rolling Outflank and Blessings/Maledictions), or do they move onto the table afterwards (meaning all rolls including Outflank and Psychic tests are done before you move any unit from Reserves onto the table)?"

As an aside I think a poll might be useful in this case (unless one has been done before, can't remember).

Are you asking can a psyker arrive from reserves and then cast scrier's gaze and have it effect the rest of the reserves rolls for that turn?

From the context of paragraph 5, right column, page 124 of the brb. I'd say no and that you have to roll for all of your reserves at once as it says you pick from the unit's arriving.

The fact that blessings and reserves happen at the same time and you can choose in what order to do them doesn't mean that you can split reserves in two and cast blessings in the middle. You'd need to resolve reserves fully before you do your blessings or vice versa.

liturgies I updated my post while you were typing. The question is not if a psyker that arrived from reserves can cast a power, it is can a psyker already on the table at the start of the turn can cast a power on a unit that arrived that turn.

I don't understand. Why wouldn't the psyker be able to cast a power if it's already on the table?

Uggh. There appears to be some confusion.


The question is:

Can a Psyker on the table at the start of the turn cast Blessings on a unit that arrived from Reserves that turn?

Am I missing the point of this thread then as the FAQ stated how that works?

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

If the reserves are done first and I've always read the Arriving from Reserves section as happening as a block(the fact roll outflank is in the faq leads me to believe this too), the units are on the board when it's time for the blessings.
Since outflank says you roll for it when "a unit arrives from reserves" and you deploy it "When reserves arrive.." paragraph 5 as noted above, I'd say it looks to be all good.

If you want to use scrivers gaze, that looks to need to be done before you roll your reserves so in that case the rest of the blessings would also need to be done before reserves as you've chosen the order that things kick in for this turn.

All of that happens simultaneously, so you get to choose which is resolved first, since it's your turn. If you resolve all of the reserve business first, then resolve psychic powers, then yes, you would be able to cast a blessing on a unit that just came in, because its deployment has been resolved.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

The underlined is where I think the potential problem lies. My question (I'm the OP!) is, "Are 'roll' and 'arrival' the same thing?" Because we can definitely cast Scrier's Gaze to affect Reserve Rolls. But does the roll of the reserve die occur at the same time as the arrival of the unit the die was rolled for? I don't think it's quite clear in the Reserves rule in the BRB.
I had previously been leaning toward "No, they are different things; rolls happen before arrival." But HappyJew pointed out that OUTFLANK rolls seem to occur at the same time as unit arrival, which would mean that blessings also therefore occur at the same time as unit arrival.

The roll for outflank happens when the unit is being deployed as per my outline above and what happy said. Since that faq says that reserves, outflank and blessings are simultaneous and outflanking rolls are part of deployment, I don't see any other way to play it than you can choose to do all your reserves and all of your blessings in either order.

It's when you roll only doesn't say roll and deploy. Or when you roll your blessings and maladictions.

So the FAQ only clears up the order on when they occur and you can bless away the roll for reserves, or roll reserves the bless away.

The second you move anything before a blessing, the casting is cannot be done. Because, outflank, deep strike, and walking or flying on all all considered movement.

Lungpickle wrote:
It's when you roll only doesn't say roll and deploy. Or when you roll your blessings and maladictions.

So the FAQ only clears up the order on when they occur and you can bless away the roll for reserves, or roll reserves the bless away.

The second you move anything before a blessing, the casting is cannot be done. Because, outflank, deep strike, and walking or flying on all all considered movement.

The outflank roll is simultaneous with deploying the models. Agreed?

rigeld2 wrote:
The outflank roll is simultaneous with deploying the models. Agreed?

Agreed.

Edit: typo

The rules for Reserves would seem to indicate that a unit arriving from Reserves "moves" onto the table. That is movement and means that the Movement Phase is underway once units arriving from Reserves are placed. As such, things that occur "at the start of the Movement Phase", such as the casting of Psychic powers, has already occurred before the unit comes on the table. Since the target needs to be on the board when the power is cast, I would say "no" you cannot target a unit arriving from reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The outflank roll is simultaneous with deploying the models. Agreed?

Agreed.

Edit: typo

Based on what? Outflank rolls are done at the beginning of the Movement Phase, the models are "deployed" during the Movement Phase.

helotaxi wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The outflank roll is simultaneous with deploying the models. Agreed?

Agreed.

Based on what? Outflank rolls are done at the beginning of the Movement Phase, the models are "deployed" during the Movement Phase.

Is that Outflank roll as in which side they arrive on? As in different to their Reserve roll?

That would be the one, yes. The FAQ implies that roll happens simultaneous with the Reserves roll and "Beginning of Movement Phase" psychic rolls. Those determine whether something arrives and how. That is not the same as actually arriving i.e. being placed on the board.

The outflank side roll is made when the unit arrives - as you said, arriving is being placed on the board.

Per the FAQ you can choose to do psychic powers after the Outflank rolls - or after units arrive.

rigeld2 wrote:
The outflank side roll is made when the unit arrives - as you said, arriving is being placed on the board.

Per the FAQ you can choose to do psychic powers after the Outflank rolls - or after units arrive.

I see where you're coming from

Outflank p40 wrote:When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6

Since the Outflank roll happens at the start of the phase, before movement, then units move onto the table from reserve also before movement.
So units arriving from Reserve can have Blessings cast on them by a Psyker already on the table.

helotaxi wrote:
The rules for Reserves would seem to indicate that a unit arriving from Reserves "moves" onto the table. That is movement and means that the Movement Phase is underway once units arriving from Reserves are placed.

No. From page 124 of the rulebook:

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal

The section I emphasised in bold is when the Movement phase would begin, not before.

Thats one way of looking at it, the other way is that is there movement and the movement phase has now started. There is no RAW answer to this that is clear, the arguement for is movement from reserves is movement therefore the movement phase has started, the arguement against is there is no break between rolling for reserves and bringing them on.

MarkyMark

What do you do if 2 units arrive from outflank in the same turn?

You roll the first and have to deploy them immediately. Can you then roll for the 2nd unit (in which case you can still cast blessings) or does the game break?

MarkyMark wrote:
Thats one way of looking at it, the other way is that is there movement and the movement phase has now started. There is no RAW answer to this that is clear, the arguement for is movement from reserves is movement therefore the movement phase has started, the arguement against is there is no break between rolling for reserves and bringing them on.

Well, no - the RAW is pretty clear.
When you roll for sides on Outflank, the models must arrive. This is the same time other models in Reserve arrive. The FAQ explicitly allows Blessings to be cast after that.

No rule book on me but does it say anywhere in the rules for reserves that they move?.

The game does not break as you simply resolve psyhic powers first then reserves as per FAQ.

So how do you resolve the 2nd out flank roll after the first unit has moved on?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So how do you resolve the 2nd out flank roll after the first unit has moved on?

I cast my powers before rolling for reserves rather simple that.

MarkyMark wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So how do you resolve the 2nd out flank roll after the first unit has moved on?

I cast my powers before rolling for reserves rather simple that.

So dodging the question it is. I'll take this as you conceding if you refuse to answer the question again:

So I have 2 units arrive from out flank. I roll for the first one and it is then moved onto the board.

Am I allowed to roll for the 2nd unit? Yes or No?

ITs the internet take it as what you want. I have already answered it clearly, I roll my powers before reserves as I have said above RAW movement from reserves is movement so I cast my powers at the start of the movement phase.

Seeing as you have ignored MY question, does that mean I win this discussion?,

MarkyMark wrote:
No rule book on me but does it say anywhere in the rules for reserves that they move?.

The game does not break as you simply resolve psyhic powers first then reserves as per FAQ.

I'm not talking about you rolling your psychic powers. When you choose to do that is up to you are per the FaQ. I'm not even talking about when someone can roll for their psychic powers. I'm talking about rolling for Outflank. Can you roll for Outflank after moving a different Outflanking unit onto the table?

As for your question are you still away from your rulebook? Yes reserves states that "when units arrive" they move on to the board (page 124) note this is the same timing as rolling for outflank.

Time for you to concede either directly or by refusing to answer the question.

Yes I would roll outflank etc together, but what does that prove?, does it prove that when you roll reserves then outflank then move your units into the table it is no longer start of the movement phase, therefore blessing cannot be done.

Regardless of you saying but it has to be done start of turn that is fine, movement from reserves is movement as you have agreed therefore no longer start of the movement phase.