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So the title says it all. How do you feel about a non-traditional paint scheme on a historical based game?? Say I was playing Bolt Action, FOW, etc and I painted my Germans or (insert army name here) in a red camo color pattern. Would this make you pause and ask about the miniatures?? Would you refuse to play due to the fact they are not painted in historical colors??

Let me state I mean no disrespect of the past in any way. I ask as I plan to run some gaming demos for my local store and i wanted something to catch peoples eyes. Bright colors tend to grab the younger crowds while the non traditional paints with give other pause to ask about the miniatures and allow me to open the door to show them the game. Plus it would allow me to tell my figures for anyone else's very easily.

So what do you guys/gals think??

For me the whole point of historical gaming is to be historical... But these threads crop up now and again and seem to generate plenty of abuse at those taking the historical line, so I shall answer once and leave it at that!

If I was running a demo of a WW2 system, I would want it to be recognisable as WW2...

Of course, you are free to paint your figures how you want, but why not just play fantasy or sci-fi if you dont want historical schemes as thats pretty much what it becomes.

I guess I just dont get why people would want to do such a thing... For me there is enough colour and excitement in historical gaming and the point of historical games for me are to recreate a historical period.

Bright Red Germans just dont work for me...

Would I play someone with red Germans?

No I wouldnt. Its not historical gaming for me then. I wouldnt enjoy it. Same as I never play with unpainted miniatures... If Im going to spend my free time, what little I have, I want to spend it in the manner that gives me the most pleasure and enjoyment.

Of course, if you brought your Red Germans along, I'd politely offer you one of my historically correct German armies to play with...



(Note - I am a little anal about historical gaming... I try to be a bit accurate in the stuff I do)

That was harsh. I wouldn't care but I personally would try to keep it historically accurate. And I think people would be drawn in more if the model's were dressed properly for their period.

I'm with Big P on this one - historical gaming is about recreating some of the atmosphere and grit of whatever period you are gaming. Unless you are playing some kind of alternate universe/fantasy version, I would try to stick to historical colours.

That said, I am not going to be bothered if you paint the camo slightly wrong for the unit and theatre of war - as long as they are the right general pattern for the army and period colours I would be fine.

Not saying I don't agree, I'm saying he was being pretty harsh about it. Telling someone to go play sci-fi or fantasy games because they don't want to paint historical paint schemes is going a bit too far for me.

I'm definitely not counted among the "button counters" (what my group calls the historically over-zealous) but I really don't see the point in a purposefully "fantastic" paint scheme.

But hey, they are your minis so do as you please.

Exactly

I try to paint my minis in a historically credible manner. I don't care if your shade of Dunkelgelb is Vallejo or Reaper or Citadel, and I don't care if your paintjob doesn't necessarily match the list or theater: a Panzer Gray Jagdpanzer in Operation Overlord wouldn't bother me.

However, I don't really like outlandish schemes on historical minis. I'd still play against you, just as I'd play against someone with an unpainted force, but I myself try to err closer to history, and tend to get more immersed in games against similarly modeled armies. Basically, if it's good enough for TV, it's good enough for me.

I'll play against anyone, but I'd prefer that the enemy wasn't purple or neon green. Honestly, if your army is painted two shades brighter than it should be, I'm fine with it, although I do understand the other point of view.

I view it much the same as a movie. Different people have different tolerances for deviation from historical uniforms and equipment. Some people don't like it if late war germans are in early war greatcoats and not in a camo smock. Other people won't notice or care even if it is pointed out.

Here's a thread I made that takes the idea of non-historical uniforms even further in that it talks about make entirely imaginary nations for a given period:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/537631.page

This probably comes up more in historical games that have more casual, but still fun and interesting fast playing rules.

Bolt Action and Flames of War comes to mind.

Since these games have good rules in and of themselves, they can get players that enjoy the game more than they enjoy the history, and that's okay.

 Vertrucio wrote:
This probably comes up more in historical games that have more casual, but still fun and interesting fast playing rules.

Bolt Action and Flames of War comes to mind.

Since these games have good rules in and of themselves, they can get players that enjoy the game more than they enjoy the history, and that's okay.

That's where I stand. I play Bolt Action and Flames of War (occasionally), and my forces aren't painted in such a fashion that they're jumping of the pages of a history book, but I do make an attempt to get realistic uniform colors down, but I enjoy the game much more than the history behind it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
This probably comes up more in historical games that have more casual, but still fun and interesting fast playing rules.

Bolt Action and Flames of War comes to mind.

Since these games have good rules in and of themselves, they can get players that enjoy the game more than they enjoy the history, and that's okay.

That's where I stand. I play Bolt Action and Flames of War (occasionally), and my forces aren't painted in such a fashion that they're jumping of the pages of a history book, but I do make an attempt to get realistic uniform colors down, but I enjoy the game much more than the history behind it.

Odd that its always in Flames of War and Bolt Action related threads that these sorts of questions pop up.

I'm going to disagree that it's in 'casual but fast playing' rules that produce non-historical paint schemes - I've played games which had minimalistic rules, where fun, and had historically accurate miniatures.

In this case, it's partially the game, but mostly the players. Bolt Action and Flames of War are two high-popularity/visibility historical wargames that when people who are used to playing fantasy/sci-fi wargames (namely 40k/Fantasy), they usually start with either BA for FoW. And they also bring with them the 'paint it as you will' mentality.

I kind of agree. If you want to make cool, unique paintjobs, go ahead, they are your models. However, historicals are a slightly different breed of game. Part of the challenge is to replicate the uniforms and equipment accurately. As a former reenactor, I dealt a lot with the people who tried being too unique and creative with uniform choices. They didn't last long.

 infinite_array wrote:
Odd that its always in Flames of War and Bolt Action related threads that these sorts of questions pop up.

I'm going to disagree that it's in 'casual but fast playing' rules that produce non-historical paint schemes - I've played games which had minimalistic rules, where fun, and had historically accurate miniatures.

In this case, it's partially the game, but mostly the players. Bolt Action and Flames of War are two high-popularity/visibility historical wargames that when people who are used to playing fantasy/sci-fi wargames (namely 40k/Fantasy), they usually start with either BA for FoW. And they also bring with them the 'paint it as you will' mentality.

My local FLGS has a historicals night, so I've played a smattering of historical rules like Sharp Practice, a rules system for the American Civil War, and some one or two others (I don't usually show up on this night), and the rules (to me) have felt clunky and a bit of a pain to play with, so I think the speed of play and the ease of learning that games like Bolt Action and Flames of War provide give plenty of reason for non-historical gamers a reason to make the jump. I'm not saying I'm going to paint my Bolt Action Americans in a modern day camo scheme (though that might look cool ), but I'm not going to care if someone nitpicks my models for not using the correct shade of olive drab..

I think an effort should be made to create the level of realism that historical games try to bring to the tabletop, but they are just games here... It's not like we have to play every game with Tristram Shandy's Uncle Toby.

I would generally try for as much accuracy as I feel is practical. I might be tempted to use ahistorical crests and other such things, and I wouldn't care if someone pointed out that they were wrong. I also wouldn't care if someone painted their Germans red or whatever. Your stuff, go for it. I think generally (As this thread shows somewhat) there's a lot more resistance to this in the historicals community, and I must admit this sort of attitude put me off getting into these sorts of wargames for a long time.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I'm not saying I'm going to paint my Bolt Action Americans in a modern day camo scheme (though that might look cool ), but I'm not going to care if someone nitpicks my models for not using the correct shade of olive drab..

And I think that's alright. It's one thing if your olive drab is a shade off, or if your Germans are more grey then feldgrau (especially when, say, you've got a collection of Citadel paints and don't want to go out and re-buy everything from Vallejo or Coat de Arms), but it's a completely different thing to paint your WWII Germans in a pattern that belongs in a video game or on a paintball marker.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think generally (As this thread shows somewhat) there's a lot more resistance to this in the historicals community, and I must admit this sort of attitude put me off getting into these sorts of wargames for a long time.

Of course there's a resistance to it in the historicals community. The whole point of historicals is to play the period, either through historically correct scenarios or close approximations thereof (as close as army lists and points values can get). Imagine if someone showed up to an ACW reenactment in a bright pink uniform, or a WWII event with red camo. It's essentially the same thing - they make act just as well as anyone else there, but it breaks the illusion.

I don't give the slightest ... that it be dead on. But historical stuff probably should be in the style of the time if nothing else.

For instance, something like running your own personal coat of arms on your medieval knights. Go for it!

Well for me it can be a bit of a hassel, but then again I mainly play historical games set in the 16th or 17th century, or around the time when the Romans where stepping up their game. I do my best to make sure my armies have the correct colours, flags and what nt when it comes to my Pike & shot armies, but when I paint Romans I use the standard colours of their gear, their shields and what not. But I do not go to extreme lengths to make sure their standard is in the exact correct shade of gold or silver. And as for my Germanic tribes, well its mostly cloth and steel there. And I have not found many sources showing me any of their banners and what not so there I go a bit more wild.

I do care somewhat, but if you've got all red epaulettes and hat trims for your French infantry, I wont mind a bit.

I feel I'm more of a "overall picture looks right" person when it comes to painting historical figures. Even though I buy uniform encyclopaedias for periods I'm interested in.

Though that's mainly so I can find a regiment that doesn't use all white breeches and fronts.

 warriorpriest wrote:
So the title says it all. How do you feel about a non-traditional paint scheme on a historical based game?? Say I was playing Bolt Action, FOW, etc and I painted my Germans or (insert army name here) in a red camo color pattern. Would this make you pause and ask about the miniatures?? Would you refuse to play due to the fact they are not painted in historical colors??

As others have said, they are your miniatures - you can melt them into piles of slag, paint them bright-pink and name them as experimental nazi-oozes if the desire takes you.

However, a big part of the appeal of historicals is the accurate representation (to some degree) of what those units and battlefields actually looked like. And it's why historical battlefields often have such care and attention lavished on them, contrast with the masses of grey plastic, sometimes even un-built battlefields of the 41st millenium that you tend to see. If you are trying to attract players with bright colours (with that kind of extreme example), and the players find that to be a necessary element and draw to the game, then I have to say they are probably not ready for historical stuff yet and need to stick with fantasy/sci-fi.

If you want bright colours you have lots of eras to choose from and stay within historicals. Hundred Years War, late Medievals, Samurai heraldry, and especially Napoleonics. Ancient Rome can be very bright. And then probably the most colourful choice of all of ancient Persians. The idea that historicals are all drab and boring is pretty much only true for the 20th century and later.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big P wrote:
For me the whole point of historical gaming is to be historical... But these threads crop up now and again and seem to generate plenty of abuse at those taking the historical line, so I shall answer once and leave it at that!

If I was running a demo of a WW2 system, I would want it to be recognisable as WW2...

Of course, you are free to paint your figures how you want, but why not just play fantasy or sci-fi if you dont want historical schemes as thats pretty much what it becomes.

I guess I just dont get why people would want to do such a thing... For me there is enough colour and excitement in historical gaming and the point of historical games for me are to recreate a historical period.

Bright Red Germans just dont work for me...

Would I play someone with red Germans?

No I wouldnt. Its not historical gaming for me then. I wouldnt enjoy it. Same as I never play with unpainted miniatures... If Im going to spend my free time, what little I have, I want to spend it in the manner that gives me the most pleasure and enjoyment.

Of course, if you brought your Red Germans along, I'd politely offer you one of my historically correct German armies to play with...



(Note - I am a little anal about historical gaming... I try to be a bit accurate in the stuff I do)

Yep, what he said.................

I painted up a Sumerian chariot (they have four wheels, so "battle wagon" might be more accurate) last night. We have very little information about Sumerian chariots. We have a few stone carvings and one or two colour bas reliefs made of different stones. Other than one depiction where the battle wagon is rolling over enemy bodies, we actually have no proof they were regularly used on the battlefield.

So when it comes to figuring out the colour scheme, it first appears that there is not a lot to go on. We can assume the wood used was the same as they used for non-military wagons. The sides might have been painted in bright colours or left unfinished. The onagers (big donkeys-- they had no horses) that pulled the battle wagons are depicted with some form of either decoration or simple barding.

So what did I do? I found out what dies and sources of colour the ancient Sumerians had access to. I have access to academic databases from work and I ended up finding some forensic anthropology papers about the chemical composition and sources of Sumerian dies and paints. As well as analysis of 5000+ year old wood residue. It's astounding what we can discover. If there's ever a conflict between history (what people say) and the physical evidence, I'll go with the evidence every time.

So while I am extremely charitable to my opponents and even like the idea of a campaign with completely fictional nations, in my own painting I tend to stay as historical as possible and researching the period, including uniforms and available paints and dyes is definitely part of the fun for me.

I wouldn't be bothered by bright red Germans or pink with yellow spots Brits. Your models, your money, your choice. I enjoy gaming in general and the fun for me comes from painting figures and playing enjoyable games. Recreating the exacting historical conditions just isn't all that thrilling for me. So if your bright red Germans look fantastic I'm simply going to want to play you more.

I would suggest however that you either pick a period of history or an army with colourful uniforms/heraldry, or one that contains but a few sources so you can be more free to experiment. This is simply to avoid stepping on peoples toes and to dodge to tsking of the button/rivet counters.

While I agree with the "your models, your choice" position, i don't agree that expecting something like period colour schemes makes one a button or rivet counter.

I also don't think I've ever seen something as drastic as red Germans or pink British. Usually if people go with something non-standard, it'll be a variation of the type of things that were in the period. Like maybe German camo schemes that look more like the British ones. Or British infantry getting a bit more olive drab than they should be. Or German grey getting really, really bright. Or Soviets in more of a khaki than a olive drab.

I don't really see that as being any different than when a movie puts a heavy filter on a sequence. Like giving everything a grey-blue tinge, or a yellow tinge. It's an atmospheric choice.

I did a few different image searches for different terms and couldn't find anything like red germans. I don't think people really do it.

EDIT: Also, it depends on what the OP meant by a "red camo scheme." For example, what if someone took something like this:



And made the red-brown a bit more red and made it cover more of the model. That's very different than a fire engine red camo scheme with no actual application in the theatre of battle.

First let me state that I want to thank everyone that has replied so far. Thank you for your honesty on how you feel. No hurt feelings either way. I quoted a few that I wanted to reply to personally. Let me also state what I was going for was something that would catch the eye of the other player. Or the eye of someone that may like the rules of the game even if they are not into historicals. I come from playing various fantasy/scifi games. I will be honest about that. But I am liking what I see of the rules for historical games. I was thinking of making my army ( say like Germans) a commando squad that has red uniforms. or at the least some red in the uniform.

Big P wrote:For me the whole point of historical gaming is to be historical... But these threads crop up now and again and seem to generate plenty of abuse at those taking the historical line, so I shall answer once and leave it at that!

If I was running a demo of a WW2 system, I would want it to be recognisable as WW2...

Of course, you are free to paint your figures how you want, but why not just play fantasy or sci-fi if you dont want historical schemes as thats pretty much what it becomes.

I guess I just dont get why people would want to do such a thing... For me there is enough colour and excitement in historical gaming and the point of historical games for me are to recreate a historical period.

Bright Red Germans just dont work for me...

Would I play someone with red Germans?

No I wouldnt. Its not historical gaming for me then. I wouldnt enjoy it. Same as I never play with unpainted miniatures... If Im going to spend my free time, what little I have, I want to spend it in the manner that gives me the most pleasure and enjoyment.

Of course, if you brought your Red Germans along, I'd politely offer you one of my historically correct German armies to play with...



(Note - I am a little anal about historical gaming... I try to be a bit accurate in the stuff I do)

Thanks for your candor. I wasn't really thinking bright red. More of a dark red, grey, and black camo sort of look. But If i was ever in your area I would gladly borrow your army to play. Depending on how big a game i would have to borrow some stuff anyways as I would have a very small force.

Jack_Death wrote:I'm definitely not counted among the "button counters" (what my group calls the historically over-zealous) but I really don't see the point in a purposefully "fantastic" paint scheme.

But hey, they are your minis so do as you please.

It would be more like a lure for fantasy/scifi players to get them into a good game. I could always paint my main force more traditional and have a small unit to show how the game works.

Stormfather wrote:I try to paint my minis in a historically credible manner. I don't care if your shade of Dunkelgelb is Vallejo or Reaper or Citadel, and I don't care if your paintjob doesn't necessarily match the list or theater: a Panzer Gray Jagdpanzer in Operation Overlord wouldn't bother me.

However, I don't really like outlandish schemes on historical minis. I'd still play against you, just as I'd play against someone with an unpainted force, but I myself try to err closer to history, and tend to get more immersed in games against similarly modeled armies. Basically, if it's good enough for TV, it's good enough for me.

valid points. Thank you.

frozenwastes wrote:I view it much the same as a movie. Different people have different tolerances for deviation from historical uniforms and equipment. Some people don't like it if late war germans are in early war greatcoats and not in a camo smock. Other people won't notice or care even if it is pointed out.

Here's a thread I made that takes the idea of non-historical uniforms even further in that it talks about make entirely imaginary nations for a given period:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/537631.page

Thank you. I will give that a read over this week. Not a bad idea if people do not mind playing against such a force.

Da Boss wrote:I would generally try for as much accuracy as I feel is practical. I might be tempted to use ahistorical crests and other such things, and I wouldn't care if someone pointed out that they were wrong. I also wouldn't care if someone painted their Germans red or whatever. Your stuff, go for it. I think generally (As this thread shows somewhat) there's a lot more resistance to this in the historicals community, and I must admit this sort of attitude put me off getting into these sorts of wargames for a long time.

Same here, but I also thought it may cheapen our history. I have family that served and for a longest i felt it would dishonor them. That was until I was told by a loved one that it is just a game. He was of course speaking of the axis/allies game. But it still applies.

infinite_array wrote:
And I think that's alright. It's one thing if your olive drab is a shade off, or if your Germans are more grey then feldgrau (especially when, say, you've got a collection of Citadel paints and don't want to go out and re-buy everything from Vallejo or Coat de Arms), but it's a completely different thing to paint your WWII Germans in a pattern that belongs in a video game or on a paintball marker.

I understand the point of wanting to stay as close as possible. And I was not going to paint them like they are splattered with paint (paintball) I just wanted/thinking of something a little different to add some extra flavor to the chili.

infinite_array wrote:Of course there's a resistance to it in the historicals community. The whole point of historicals is to play the period, either through historically correct scenarios or close approximations thereof (as close as army lists and points values can get). Imagine if someone showed up to an ACW reenactment in a bright pink uniform, or a WWII event with red camo. It's essentially the same thing - they make act just as well as anyone else there, but it breaks the illusion.

Illusion?? Sorry we are talking about miniatures. I can understand the reaction to reenactments. I guess i am not as picky. Of course there are guys out there that throw a fit cause all your space marines do not have grenades glued to their belts.............

Pacific wrote:As others have said, they are your miniatures - you can melt them into piles of slag, paint them bright-pink and name them as experimental nazi-oozes if the desire takes you.

However, a big part of the appeal of historicals is the accurate representation (to some degree) of what those units and battlefields actually looked like. And it's why historical battlefields often have such care and attention lavished on them, contrast with the masses of grey plastic, sometimes even un-built battlefields of the 41st millenium that you tend to see. If you are trying to attract players with bright colours (with that kind of extreme example), and the players find that to be a necessary element and draw to the game, then I have to say they are probably not ready for historical stuff yet and need to stick with fantasy/sci-fi.

Nazi-oozes.....LOL!! I see your point. and respect that. I also feel that most gamers will play a game if it is fun. After all it is all about fun. but something sometimes has to catch your eye. For me it was the rules not necessarily the time set of the game. I think in general there are all levels of gamers regardless of historicals vs. scifi vs etc You have the person that just wants to play. (cardboard cut outs are fine), the builder non painter ( all my men are grey and I am ok with it), the painter ( all my stuff has to have at least 3 paints), and finisher 9 all my stuff is painted the way i am ok with), and the zealot ( everything has to be WYSIWYG down to the grenades and number of buttons). Of course this is just an example as everyone is a little different. Me I fall among different ones at different times. I just enjoy the experience. Plus i spend so much time painting for other and doing commissions for not only models, terrain, bases but also Transformers, action figures etc.

Zond wrote:I wouldn't be bothered by bright red Germans or pink with yellow spots Brits. Your models, your money, your choice. I enjoy gaming in general and the fun for me comes from painting figures and playing enjoyable games. Recreating the exacting historical conditions just isn't all that thrilling for me. So if your bright red Germans look fantastic I'm simply going to want to play you more.

I would suggest however that you either pick a period of history or an army with colourful uniforms/heraldry, or one that contains but a few sources so you can be more free to experiment. This is simply to avoid stepping on peoples toes and to dodge to tsking of the button/rivet counters.

Cool. Hoepfully one day I will get a game against you. I do not care if I do not have enough buttons on my coats.

frozenwastes wrote:While I agree with the "your models, your choice" position, i don't agree that expecting something like period colour schemes makes one a button or rivet counter.

I also don't think I've ever seen something as drastic as red Germans or pink British. Usually if people go with something non-standard, it'll be a variation of the type of things that were in the period. Like maybe German camo schemes that look more like the British ones. Or British infantry getting a bit more olive drab than they should be. Or German grey getting really, really bright. Or Soviets in more of a khaki than a olive drab.

I don't really see that as being any different than when a movie puts a heavy filter on a sequence. Like giving everything a grey-blue tinge, or a yellow tinge. It's an atmospheric choice.

I did a few different image searches for different terms and couldn't find anything like red germans. I don't think people really do it.

EDIT: Also, it depends on what the OP meant by a "red camo scheme." For example, what if someone took something like this:



And made the red-brown a bit more red and made it cover more of the model. That's very different than a fire engine red camo scheme with no actual application in the theatre of battle.

I do not think it makes you a button counter either. Just that you would prefer to play with/ against something more traditional. I would not go fire engine red. I would play a American revolution game with Brits then. Something like you posted could work well for what i was thinking. Just make it like you said more red then red-brown.


thank you again everyone that has posted so far.

Im just not sure you need to be unhistorical to grab peoples attention...


Why not use a historical, but striking camo pattern?




I dont see why using a different colour will grab peoples attention.

Surely nicely painted miniatures, on good terrain will do that regardless... And perhaps something historical, might be what attracts them instead of something similar to Space Marines.

If you are trying to attract people into historical gaming, then use the history to attract people as the imagery of WW2 is pretty well known...

Personally I don't usually paint things the "way they are supposed to be," so I had a bit of trouble deciding on a colour scheme for my late war Germans. I wanted to paint them grey (I play a lot of World of Tanks, so to me German tanks are grey... ) but the people at my FLGS convinced me to paint them in historically accurate colours and to look at pictures for reference. Did you know that there are a lot of black and white pictures of WWII...?

My Germans are painted in greyscale and if I ever do Allies, I plan on painting them in Sepia tones. If you're inclined to do something different, that's an idea. Hey, it's historically accurate!

Hope your terrain is greyscale too!