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I just wanted to get a list of things your friends do that cross that grey area when playing . Every group has that "one guy" who is trying to push the boundaries intentionally. I'll post my friend up to start, who plays necrons and tau. For instance, he shaves all of his bases down by about a small amount to try to get cover saves. He also cuts the small clear polls on his tau drones for the same purpose. What stuff have you guys seen, it can be rules or modeling.

I don't see how that is 'tactics' when it is clearly and demonstrably 'cheating'.

"Competitive" and "cheating" are not the same thing.

 curran12 wrote:
I don't see how that is 'tactics' when it is clearly and demonstrably 'cheating'.

Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.

There I corrected the title to represent it better. That and apparently had a typo in the title to boot.

 Rotary wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
I don't see how that is 'tactics' when it is clearly and demonstrably 'cheating'.

Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.

Why not say something? What exactly does rolling your eyes accomplish?

 Rotary wrote:


Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.

It's certainly none of my business, but may I ask why you put up with someone who is blatantly cheating in your face? I mean, you say 'out of respect', but what does that mean? This guy does not respect you enough to play fairly, so why does he get a pass from it? By not calling him and working towards changing him, you are sending the message that it is perfectly okay to cheat to him.

I had one game where a guy had rolled all of his pyschic powers, warlord traits, and psychic tests behind a building on his side of the table. It's not something I really thought about at first, until I realized that in a 500 point doubles tourney he got pretty lucky to get iron arm on both of his tervigons every single round. He was using some odd conversion model that he had and had a very wide frame because of extended claws. He would often have one claw arm in terrain and try to call it 25% obscured for MC. He'd really use it to his advantage and even tried assaulting two units at once with it. To make it worse, his partner was cheating too.

Only thing I've seen recently was a guy running Tau and he very conveniently kept forgetting which upgrades his suits had. The bright side is he went against my friend who is amazing with numbers and memorizing the codex and called him at every step the guy tried adding extra equipment.

I can't even think of an instance where 1-2 mm made a difference for determining a cover save.

"Ah yes, that totally switches it from 22 to 25% cover."

If someone is willing to argue that with me, I already assume they're a dick and have no respect for them.

I guess I get the point of the thread. Some of us have friends that skirt the line of cheating and we tolerate them because we're friends outside of games. However, I will give them endless crap when I find them cheating to discourage it in the future.

 curran12 wrote:

 Rotary wrote:


Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.

It's certainly none of my business, but may I ask why you put up with someone who is blatantly cheating in your face? I mean, you say 'out of respect', but what does that mean? This guy does not respect you enough to play fairly, so why does he get a pass from it? By not calling him and working towards changing him, you are sending the message that it is perfectly okay to cheat to him.

Simply because I've known him for around fifteen years and he has undergone a few changes in his mentality since becoming a marine. I tolerate it because in the grand scheme of things this is just a game, and like i said before its kind of amusing to me. It's me and a group of about 8 others who play together, non competitive, just for fun. If he wishes the ridicule of the group to get a cover save thats his choice.

I've seen people boost the stats of their units or power of their abilities through the cover story that they hardly play or are new to the hobby.

It is pretty clear that they didn't just make a mistake or forget because they will make a big deal over pulling out their codex to check.

I played this one dark eldar player who would do his hellion movements very quickly and claimed they were T4 due to skyboards (I called him on this) and he reluctantly pulled out his book and made some excuse.

The worst was he rolled for his WL trait and told me it boosted 1 stat for his WL's unit (I forget which stat - I think it was toughness). However, I saw him look at his codex at the WL trait table right after he rolled..... I assumed because he had just "read" the trait that he was telling the truth. Later when I got home I looked at the DE traits and the one he claimed to have rolled didn't even exist.

It was a super annoying match because he stalled his last turn just because the GW was closing up soon. So we had to call a draw even though I was going to eventually win.

Actually gossip, it might have been combat drugs, as the DE codex does not have warlord traits. And +1T is one of the results, and if his unit has drugs, they do get the benefits.

 Rotary wrote:
I just wanted to get a list of things your friends do that cross that grey area when playing . Every group has that "one guy" who is trying to push the boundaries intentionally. ..

They really don't.

When I'm gaming with friends, we discuss those grey areas and agree on how they should be handled. If there are 'shady' tactics happening, it's because we have agreed to play that way for giggles.

What people do to win with plastic toy soldiers. Speaks volumes of the person.

i used to cheat because of vagueness in the DE codex. wytch dodge save is vague. i think i used to take shockprow extra armour on more than it should have, dias can't take upgrades but it doesn't say that. so basically watch it on DE players

Im guilty of reverse cheating. When i see that my opponent is having a bad time or the dice is just against them and I am crushing them, I will roll my dice behind a building and claim to have missed or failed armor saves. For me it keeps the game competitive and it makes my friends feel a bit better, plus its good to avoid any rage quits when you have a very small pool of people who play locally.

Rotary wrote:Every group has that "one guy" ... who plays necrons and tau.

Yup. TFG will always float to the most powerful armies so that they can use as little effort as is required to win games. There are actually a lot of things that TFGs tend to do, like play forgeworld, play with the most of what most people call the cheesiest, and, yes, cheat. They'll also tend to think that 40k is a strategy game, and that the reason they win is because they're skilled. Likely they play in tournaments and think that means anything.

Not to say you're a TFG if you do any of those things, but if you're a TFG, you're probably doing those things.

As for common cheating, I'd say the three most common are:

1.) Movement. My tanks is going to move "six inches". Oh look, I'm in range.

2.) Templates. The blast scatter direction really is much more off the table and less on my troops. That flamer's really only hitting 3 models, and less like 6. Yes, I've positioned the flamer template so that the small end is actually touching the base of my own model, of course.

3.) Points. I don't have my codex on me, but I've played this game a million times (and am pretty good at it, look how often I win), so I know that I'm bringing a 1500 point list here, on the dot. You have to trust me, because I'm good at this game, remember?

My personal favorite is "My demon prince is flying so I can see everything." Note: on the normal base he is provided with

My turn: Me - "Ok I am going to target the demon prince."
Him - "You can't, you don't have LOS to him."
Me - "But you said he has LOS to everything since he is flying"
Him - "Yeah but you base it off the base."
Me - "So what you are saying is, you can do what ever you want as long as it benefits you?"
Him - "No, I am saying it is the rules."

This has actually occurred, to say the least he doesn't get many games anymore.

#1 I've personally seen an opponent make a few rolls on the sly behind terrain, then quickly scooped up the dice while claiming a particular result was rolled.

#2 I've encountered modeling for advantage. There's a local player here who models his army into kneeling/crouching positions. There's a Tau Riptide that occasionally makes an appearance at our FLGS, which is modeled into a very weird crouch, like it's doing the limbo. I've joked that he's going to cut the stems off his drones, and just glue them directly to the bases so that the drones look like landmines.

#3 I've seen a player or two consistently over-measure. One might call it a mistake (We all over-measure sometimes by accident, I'm sure.) but it tends to happen a lot more than it should.

#4 I haven't seen it in Warhammer, but when I played Battletech I suspected a guy was using loaded dice. They rolled a particular number very consistently. When I asked to use them, he was very, very protective of the dice and wouldn't let me handle them. I put an end to that game rather quickly.

Personal opinion on the subject: Not bothering to bring a codex with you should be considered cheating.

I'm the closest thing to "that guy" in my group, and by that, I'm pretty much the only one who actually knows all the various broken rules in the game. And then never bring them up in game.

Most of the time, I leave it up to my opponent:
Your call, do I get a cover save?
What do you think, 4 or 5 models?
I occasionally goof (who doesn't we're only human) and after the game I'll be the one who goes "Hey dude, for future reference, you screwed this up, those models are only Ld 7." or "Oops, I screwed that up, I thought it was S7 not S6. Sorry.".

The classic move front of base to back guy who ragequits when he loses, he's the highlight of my 40k life.

That said, he's still more fun to play than the guy who brings your hard counter no matter what you play, because he won't even turn up unless told what you'll be bringing. Oh, and he'll leave instead of playing if you bait-and-switch in something that's a fair match, even, let alone his own counter.

That makes me understand the OP's thing about playing with mr MFA and not calling him on it. Its helped a lot by the greatly improved chances that these people will netlist and not actually know how to play their list, I guess.

We have one guy who's developed a very suspicious way of rolling dice. He'll place them in his hand and then drop them on the table quite low so they hardly even bounce, much less roll.

No one really cares to make a fuss about it since he's so much fun to play against anyway that people mostly stay at home instead. In any large rules argument you've seen on this board he could talk even the best trolls to death from boredom if he cared to take part.

edit: and sometimes I've seen armies gone over the points limit, but that could also be an honest mistake. Except from the guys who spend time calculating point-to-kill ratios for their troops against any opponent they're likely to face...

this may be why x-wing is looking so good to me right now

I have a friend who has an irritating habit of turning the direction of a scatter when moving the tape from the scatter die to the originating point. Generally away from his models and towards mine.

I just call him on it, and he corrects it.

I've got a player at my local whom I suspect of altering his lists once game has begun as well as taking more selections that he had points for (although I've never been sure enough to call him on either of these things).

However, what I notice more than anything else is what I call 'soft cheating.'

For instance, player A hits player B with a Witchfire power. Player B sighs, asks what the AP is, is told it is 2, and removes his models. Player A knows full well that Player B was entitled to a Deny the Witch roll, and says nothing.

Player A's Eldar defeat Player B's Marines in close combat. Player B fails his Leadership test, his unit breaks and escapes. In each subsequent round, Player B makes a test for the Marines, fails it, and continues to fall back, eventually off the board. Player A, no rookie to the game, is more than familiar with And They Shall Know No Fear and again keeps his mouth shut.

Not technically cheating, but shady nevertheless. This is what I mean by 'soft cheating.' Perfectly fine between vets, I suppose, by incredibly shady when perpetrated by a veteran of the hobby on a rookie.

I had a guy "boost" the stats of many of his units, hiding behind the defense that he left his codex at home. After the game, a neutral observer mentioned to me that the guy was blatantly cheating. That's pretty sad.

Funny story about someone at our FLGS:

A friend of mine was looking through his dice collection one day while we were chatting, and all of a sudden his eyes go bug-wild. "What man?" He says, "Tell me if this dice looks funny...wait there are a few more like it!" These dice had extra pips drilled out, so the 4's and 1's both looked like 5's. Interesting. We deduced that he'd actually gotten these dice in a trade with a rather well known shady player. That was pretty priceless.

Had a guy at my old hobby store who constantly, every game, every day rolled iron arm for mephistophon. When asked, he says "I have a half chance. My rolls are just good I guess"

I've never even seen him roll his powers.
Me. Oh, time to roll sychick powers.
Him, oh I already did.
Me. U did did? I didn't see you....
Him. Oh I did it over here on my rule book.
Me... What did. U get?
Him. Iron arm.
Me. again??? What else....
Him. Nothing that matters.

Generally your other sychick powers matter... So something's up.

When cheating I prefer to move my opponents models for him, and roll dice for them as well.

Unfortunately I'm so lucky that his army slaughters mine.

I should really stop doing that.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Had a guy at my old hobby store who constantly, every game, every day rolled iron arm for mephistophon. When asked, he says "I have a half chance. My rolls are just good I guess"

I've never even seen him roll his powers.
Me. Oh, time to roll sychick powers.
Him, oh I already did.
Me. U did did? I didn't see you....
Him. Oh I did it over here on my rule book.
Me... What did. U get?
Him. Iron arm.
Me. again??? What else....
Him. Nothing that matters.

Generally your other sychick powers matter... So something's up.

Mephiston has a less than 50% chance to get Iron Arm. Specifically 33% assuming he keeps his first power if it's something else to maximise his chances. He only gets two Powers if he trades.

Davor wrote:
What people do to win with plastic toy soldiers. Speaks volumes of the person.

This. I am blown away by some of the posts in this thread. I don't understand why people would go to such lengths just to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Im guilty of reverse cheating. When i see that my opponent is having a bad time or the dice is just against them and I am crushing them, I will roll my dice behind a building and claim to have missed or failed armor saves. For me it keeps the game competitive and it makes my friends feel a bit better, plus its good to avoid any rage quits when you have a very small pool of people who play locally.

Good for you man. That is really good sportsmanship. I've done the same just to make the game more enjoyable for those I am playing with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dastrike wrote:
My personal favorite is "My demon prince is flying so I can see everything." Note: on the normal base he is provided with

My turn: Me - "Ok I am going to target the demon prince."
Him - "You can't, you don't have LOS to him."
Me - "But you said he has LOS to everything since he is flying"
Him - "Yeah but you base it off the base."
Me - "So what you are saying is, you can do what ever you want as long as it benefits you?"
Him - "No, I am saying it is the rules."

This has actually occurred, to say the least he doesn't get many games anymore.

This is just hilarious right here....lololol

This. I am blown away by some of the posts in this thread. I don't understand why people would go to such lengths just to win.

I understand that income is much higher in the US , but wining and not wining some models can make a difference between making your army free and paying to get it .last year one dude , who was a MtG pre organiser , run away with money from over 30 people people . those were box from pre and some people wanted to buy for themselfs . Wasn't a bank robbery or nothing of that scale , but it still was a lot of cash .

What of course doesn't change the fact that cheating seems a stupid. If the orgs catch you , you will never have a place to play again and because all the communties know each other or even are made out of same people , even switching systems or games won't help.