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White Scars CT

Librarian with Force sword, boltpistol, psychic hood, frag and krak grenades, Psyker (Mastery Level 2) and Space Marine bike .......110 points


Command Squad...................210 points

4 Veterans with Grav Guns
1 Apothecary with Narthecium
the entire squad has frag grenades, krak grenades and bikes with TL-bolters

TOTAL: 320 points



So lets see here. We have, for 320 points, 6 models on bikes, i.e. a unit with 7 wounds and all of them Toughness 5 and 3+ armor saves. When they move, they get 4+ jink saves and have a 5+ FNP save should they fail either of these saves. They need to get in range with their Grav Guns, so they can turbo boost and receive 3+ jink saves, while doing so. When they do get in range, they fire 12 AP2 grav shots which usually equals 8 hits, putting a significant threat to any Monstrous Creature or Heavy Infantry squad in the open. Their firepower is accompanied by the Librarian's own powers (Psychic Shriek, Puppet Master or Hallucination from the Telepathy discipline and Flame Breath or Molten Beam from the Pyromancy discipline). Against tanks with rear AV 10, they can charge into cc and have 6 krak grenades. Against light infantry, they got their 6 twin-linked Bolters, equalling 12 TL-S4 shots within 12" or half that between 12" and 24".

In close combat (which I am not aiming to get into) the Librarian has 3 base attacks, 4 on charge, with his force weapon. Since they are White Scars, they have Hit and Run, and thus cannot get locked in cc.

And as mentioned before, the unit can take a lot of punishment thanks to 7 wounds, T5, 3+ armor, 4+ jink and 5+ FNP.

And the unit is very mobile and ignores difficult and dangerous terrain.

I think it is worth 320 points.

7 wounds...
You could have 10 scoring bikes with 4 grav guns and 2 combi gravs for 290pts, giving you 18shots first turn followed by 12 in the followimg turns, plus your opponent would have to cause a few casualties before removing a single grav gun.
The advantage of your squad is 5+fnp, 2 attacks and increased ld, plus the libbys powers. Swings and roundabouts really.

The unit got too much killpower, and not nearly enough defenses.
Even with T5 and FNP, basic infantry fire spam would just make you roll so much you are bound to lose guys, and every guy oyu lose HURTS

The problem with the bike Command Squad is the lack of survivability for the cost. Those bikers are 42 point models with only a 3+ save. Yes, toughness 5 and FNP helps. However, they really aren't all that durable--particularly in a competitive environment of Tau/Eldar/Daemon lists.

An average of 24 armor saves kills the Command Squad. That really isn't that tall of an order at the current moment. Keep in mind, each wound will also remove a valuable model. A two wound Librarian helps the already strong offense, but does little to help the fragility of the unit.

Overall, it isn't that the unit is uncompetitive or even bad. Just don't expect it to last.

Yup. The unit WILL die, your opponent has to kill it. That said, it definitely has a place. For starters it takes the pressure off of the rest of your army for a while since it is pretty durable. Second, that unit will nuke something before it goes (which goes a long way in making points back) with all that grav you're bound to do some real damage. The point is to get the most out if the unit during turns 1-2 since it most likely won't be around much longer.

Also, I'd probably drop the Librarian. They're pretty weak choices for Space Marines. A captain/chapter master is almost always better to lead this unit.

If you get lucky with your libby, your unit can survive more punishment. Invisibility will be a godsend from telepathy, or forwarning from divination. Some of the other powers increase survival a bit, but not enough to really matter. That said, those are 2 powers out of a LOT, and your odds are not great.

Thats why I rely on the Primaris Powers as I can fall back on them, and Psychic Shriek or Flame Breath are pretty good ones adding to the unit's overall firepower.

I disagree about a captain being a better choice than the Librarian in this unit for two reasons:

1) his Iron Halo is useless as I anyway have a 3+ armor and 4+ cover save.

2) His use is only in close combat, and I want to avoid close combat as I dont get to shoot my Grav Guns when I'm in cc.

For quick charges to finish off stragglers (and disengage with White Scars Hit and Run) I think the Libby is good enough. Not gonna engage boss creatures or ICs in cc; they will be shot to bits.

Adding a lot more shooting is not going to help the squad all that much. Psychic shriek is awesome, flame breath...not so much. Remember, your libby can only make 1 psychic shooting attack regardless of level, so try to get a support power as well.

It's got some killing power but no real staying power. I'd run this in a casual list but not in a competitive one.

In the analysis I've ran, the command squad has roughly the same RPP (resilience per point) compared to bike squads, except when shot by weapons that deny FnP.

Bike Squad
133.3333333 IG lasgun
49.99750012 bolter
13.33320003 PG
19.99980004 autocannon
13.33320003 LC

Command Squad
128.5714286 IG lasgun
48.21187512 bolter
12.85701431 PG
19.28552147 autocannon
8.571342875 LC

Damage Per Point
Their DPP (Damage per Point)values are also very similar vs MEQ and TEQ, but fail vs GEQ.
Bike Squad
37.03703704 GEQ
26.9360202 MEQ
20.2020202 TEQ

Command Squad
18.34215168 GEQ
26.80775873 MEQ
21.86948854 TEQ

Summary
Are command squads worth it?
- They are slightly more dangerous in assault
- They are not scoring.
- They have a smaller footprint (per point) than bike squads
- They are only 1 unit instead of 1.5 units (ie, less contesting ability - less overkill can be wasted, etc.)
- Weaker GEQ killing power may be bad if your facing lots of guardians, etc
- They will have better odds vs tanks and MCs
- They have no ablative bodies to lose without impacting firepower capacity. Bike squads can lose 3 models before this happens.
So are they worth it? That really depends on you. Personally I like to bring more bikes squads and spend those extra points on support elements.

Adding Characters to take Advantage of FNP
Adding HQs to units never increases their RPP/DPP values from shooting. For the cost of Khan and a Libraian on a bike + artificer armor you can buy nearly 2 more squads of bikes.
When you bring ICs like that, your paying for the other elements they bring to your army. Additional assault capacity, the ability to confer scout, psychic buffs, etc...
These values can be hard to quanitify, so its up to see if they are worth it or not

CM Tanking
Adding in a 2+ armor save character is really easy. Remember that a 2+ armor save is twice as durable as a 3+ armor save. However it does add to the point cost of the unit. So, a chapter master on a bike with artificer armor costs 170 points. He has 4 wounds, so that's identical to adding 8 bikes. 8 bikes would cost 168 points. Therefore adding a chapter master like that is nearly identical -- durability wise to adding more bikes. If you stick the CM in a squad with FnP, the CM actually is 33% more effective at tanking wounds.

Therefore, a CM can be an effective tank due to his 4 wounds base. It can get even better if he has IWND. I would suggest an ally of Iron Hands to accomplish this.

to the OP:
I would spend 5 more pts to buy an auspex for the Libby.
When close to a MC, reducing its save against grav from 4++ to 5++, might make a huge difference

Forget white scars CT(because of focus fire), take an attached DA libby on a bike with prescince and a PFG, now the unit has a 4+ invuln (can't be mitigated by marker lights/helldrakes) and re-rolls misses and possibly even ignores cover.

Maybe make them iron hands and stick a bike captain with artificer, EW shield, FNP and IWND at the front to tank.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
If you get lucky with your libby, your unit can survive more punishment. Invisibility will be a godsend from telepathy, or forwarning from divination. Some of the other powers increase survival a bit, but not enough to really matter. That said, those are 2 powers out of a LOT, and your odds are not great.

SM libbies cannot take divination for forewarning.

unit is to squishy.
neads 2+ armor somewhere. capatin first most choice.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Remember that a 2+ armor save is twice as durable as a 3+ armor save.

lolwut? A 2+ save is only 16.66% better than a 3+ save.


I agree with you about the tanking concept - a CM with 2+ armor at the very front of the squad will give these guys that much more survivability. No need for Shield Eternal - only a S10 weapon can insta-kill him and the bikes' maneuverability should help you keep them out of LoS of that one or two S10 weapons your enemy's army might have.


Iron Hand IWND only helpts the CM. Having a 1 worse jink on the rest of my team....is worse?

Bad math, my friend. You are only half as likely to fail a 2+ save as a 3+ save. That makes it twice as good.

There is always a need for the shield eternal.

When wounded by a weapon that is AP -, the chance of failing a 3+ save is 33.33% and the chance of failing a 2+ save is 16.66%.

So because 16.66% is half of 33.33% the chance of failing the armor save is halved by upgrading from 3+ to 2+?

That is skewed math. Everytime you upgrade your armor from 6+ all the way to 2+, your chance to survive increases by 16.66%, because passing a 6+ save is gonna happen 16.66% of the time, and every armorsave that is 1 better than that increases your chance of passing by a further 16.66%.

Yeah, it's double, but you have to look at the big picture where 1+ is 100% and not getting an armor save is 0%.

No, that's not skewed math. 33.33% is double the value of 16.66%. Therefore, you are twice as likely to fail. Period. There is no other picture to look at. Just look at statistics.

If a model with 2+ armor suffers 12 incoming wounds, the Gaussian weighted statistical average is that he takes 2 of those wounds. For a 3+ save, the average is 4 wounds. How is 2 wounds not half of 4 wounds? This makes the 2+ armor twice as effective.

In a similar manner, a 5+ save is twice as good as a 6+ save, even though the die pip only increments by 16.66%, from 16.66% to 33.33% chance.

 Sir Arun wrote:
When wounded by a weapon that is AP -, the chance of failing a 3+ save is 33.33% and the chance of failing a 2+ save is 16.66%.

So because 16.66% is half of 33.33% the chance of failing the armor save is halved by upgrading from 3+ to 2+?

That is skewed math. Everytime you upgrade your armor from 6+ all the way to 2+, your chance to survive increases by 16.66%, because passing a 6+ save is gonna happen 16.66% of the time, and every armorsave that is 1 better than that increases your chance of passing by a further 16.66%.

Yeah, it's double, but you have to look at the big picture where 1+ is 100% and not getting an armor save is 0%.

so if you are faced with something that would kill 4 bikes through forced saves like Autocannons, you would instead lose 2 wounds on your 2+ save character. 2 is half of 4.

It gets soooo much better against AP3 Ignore cover weapons, where you will be taking 6 times less damage.

Yeah, one of the best features of C:SM is the 2+ IC tanking the helldrake hits. C:SM really does more to change CSM play than Tau or Eldar.

Let me break it down for ya:

If you are wearing 6+ armor, your chance of survival is 16.66%.

If you are wearing 6+ armor and upgrade to 5+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 16.66% to 33.33%, which is +100% the previous value, so the 5+ armor is twice as durable as the 6+ armor.

If you are wearing 5+ armor and upgrade to 4+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 33.33% to 50.00%, which is +50% the previous value, so the 4+ armor is half more durable than the 5+ armor.

If you are wearing 4+ armor and upgrade to 3+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 50.00% to 66.66%, which is +33% the previous value (as the increase of 16.66% is there, and 50.00% is made up of 3x 16.66%), so the 3+ armor is one third more durable than the 4+ armor.

If you are wearing 3+ armor and upgrade to 2+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 66.66% to 83.33%, which is +25% the previous value, so the 2+ armor is one fourth more durable as the 3+ armor.

So in short, 2+ armor offers 25% more protection than 3+ armor does.

I already broke it down for you.

12 wounds incoming:

2+ armor takes 2 wounds

3+ armor takes 4 wounds.

The fact that 83.33% is only 25% more than 66.66% means NOTHING in the statistical calculation. It's just a mathematical curiosity in this case.

Bear in mind that some guard players are starting to field colossus arty as well. Thats a S6 Ap3, ignores cover, indirect fire large blast with 240" range (yes, 240!). So not as accurate as a baleflamer but cheaper, shoots from turn one and available in squadrons. Your bikes with 3+ and 4+ cover will dies just as fast as anything else (well, a hair slower thanks to T5). Plus Tau marketlights and a bunch of other new Eldar stuff will just ignore your cover and either torrent of dice to you (missilesides, etc) or mini-rend you to death (eldar shuriken weapons). An invul for a deathstar unit like this would be a huge improvement. Your milage may vary but I would highly recommend either the shield eternal captain/master or the suggested allied DA libby with power field.

Martels maths is spot on. Or put this way: 2+ is EXACTLY 100% better than a 3+ against ap4 or worse weapons. Compare 16.7% to 33.3%. 33% is 100% greater than 16.7% (16.6 (due to rounding) percentage POINTS greater but 100 PERCENT greater).

 Sir Arun wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Remember that a 2+ armor save is twice as durable as a 3+ armor save.

lolwut? A 2+ save is only 16.66% better than a 3+ save.

This is from my article Rule of Resilience. Note how the terminators live twice as long as TAC marines.
Time to Live
The best way to determine Resilience is to take a page from MMO tanks and determine “Time to Live” This is how long the same number of damage can be directed at a unit until it dies. For example, it takes 203 MEQ bolter shots to kill 10 Plague Marines, while it takes 31 MEQ bolter shots to kill 10 orks not in cover. The “Time to Live” value for Plague Marines is significantly more than orks when shot at by bolter fire.
There are many elements that effect “Time to Live”. Let’s focus on the most direct – the armor save. Notice how the “Time to Live” value increases as the armor save increases.
10 Scouts……………….61 MEQ Bolters
10 TAC Marines……..91 MEQ Bolters
10 Terminators………181 MEQ Bolters
This illustrates the concept of Resilience. While the armor save may got from a 4+ to 3+, resulting in a change of 50% save to 66.66% save, the end result is a “Time to Live” increase of 50%!

Use fractions if you don't believe him. 1/3 (2/6) is twice as large as 1/6. Twice as large means 200% the size of (2.0 coverted into a percentage is 200%), to find the difference take off the original amount of 100%. 200% - 100 % = 100% greater.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Let me break it down for ya:
If you are wearing 6+ armor, your chance of survival is 16.66%.
If you are wearing 6+ armor and upgrade to 5+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 16.66% to 33.33%, which is +100% the previous value, so the 5+ armor is one time more durable than the 6+ armor.
If you are wearing 5+ armor and upgrade to 4+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 33.33% to 50.00%, which is +50% the previous value, so the 4+ armor is half more durable than the 5+ armor.
If you are wearing 4+ armor and upgrade to 3+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 50.00% to 66.66%, which is +33% the previous value (as the increase of 16.66% is there, and 66.66% is made up of 3x 16.66%), so the 3+ armor is one third more durable than the 4+ armor.
If you are wearing 3+ armor and upgrade to 2+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 66.66% to 83.33%, which is +16.66% the previous value, so the 2+ armor is one sixth more durable as the 3+ armor.
If you are wearing 6+ armor and upgrade to 5+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 16.66% to 33.33%, which is double the previous value, so the 5+ armor is twice as durable as the 6+ armor.
If you are wearing 6+ armor and upgrade to 5+ armor, your chance of survival increases from 16.66% to 33.33%, which is double the previous value, so the 5+ armor is twice as durable as the 6+ armor.

By your logic:
a guy with - save has a 0% chance to survive while a guy with 6+ armor has a 16% chance to survive. This means that 6+ armor is infinity more durable than - armor
but a guy with 5+ armor has a 33% chance to survive. This means that 5+ armor is also infinity more durable than - armor and then it gets hard to compare the two.

that is chances of survival given a certain shot. Most people keep shooting till something is dead so we talk about the amount of firepower to bring them down.

Assuming you are shooting wounds(shots would take longer as a lot miss or fail to wound) at 3+ save dudes.

After one wound you have a 66% chance of survival
After 2 shots, a 44%
After 3 shots 29%
After 4 shots 19%
After 5 shots 13%

Doing the same calculation with 2+ saves
One shot 83% chance
Two shots 69%
Three shots 57%
Four shots 48%
Five Shots 40%

So after 5 shots you could say the 2+ save guy has 27% higher chances of survival or you could say he is 3 times as likely to be alive or you could say 200% more likely to be alive.

The problem is that once someone dies, generally people shot shooting them. Chance of survival isnt as importance as chance of chance of dying. 2+ saves have half the chance of dying as guys with 3+ saves.

Why not a bike captain with a combi-grav, AA, SE or BB

Thats an addition 3 grav shots at bs 5, shove him up front to tank small arms, then if all else fails detach and charge something with a BB for maximum lulz.

As well, by doing so you unlock additional bike marines for troop + more gravs.

If FNP can be taken along with IWND, then an Iron Hands chapter master on bike with Armor Indomitus (2+/4++ ; 2+/2++ if situation calls it) and Grav Gun will make for a perfect spearhead to the 4x Grav 1x Apothecary bike command squad

With Iron Hands, I'd be tempted to take more scoring goodness.