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img]C:\Documents and Settings\visits01\My Documents\Apollo2.bmp[/img]Hello All I have found some good models for colonail Vipers From Battlestar Galactica that I have done up for the Star Wars Xwing Game. Let Me know what You think. I know the Paint job isn't the Greatest but I just wanted to get them on the tabletop versus som imperial ties and Rebel X wings. I hope all the attachments come through because I am new at this so please Pm me if they do not with some advice on how to fix it and post the pictures.

Well, what you've got there is a TIE Interceptor Saber Squadron Pilot with target lock. Balance-wise these guys need to cost more, simply because right now they are just a straight upgrade.

Nice models. Are they from studio bergstrom or the FFG BSG game?


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Or shapeways?

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Well, what you've got there is a TIE Interceptor Saber Squadron Pilot with target lock. Balance-wise these guys need to cost more, simply because right now they are just a straight upgrade.

23pts? Seeing as the Target Lock modification in the upcoming Aces pack is 2pts? Or maybe drop 1 Agility and/or Attack die?

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Well, what you've got there is a TIE Interceptor Saber Squadron Pilot with target lock. Balance-wise these guys need to cost more, simply because right now they are just a straight upgrade.

This. It feels like you're trying to do too much with these and just giving them everything instead of thinking about what is absolutely necessary to capture the "feel" of the ship.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Well, what you've got there is a TIE Interceptor Saber Squadron Pilot with target lock. Balance-wise these guys need to cost more, simply because right now they are just a straight upgrade.

This. It feels like you're trying to do too much with these and just giving them everything instead of thinking about what is absolutely necessary to capture the "feel" of the ship.

I agree. You should add a kitchen sink.

I was trying to give them the things I remember from the original series. This is just a template for anyone to use. Yes the are just tie interceptors with one extra ability. The models are actually the viper mark 2 keychains. You ca mnemonic still get them on amazon or ebay. Thanks for the criticism. You can do them however you want this was just my thoughts on it to see if there is some interest in battlestar galactica.

Why Firepower 3? So far Firepower 3 seems reserved for those ships of this size with 3-4 guns, Vipers(from both versions) only mount 2(the same as a standard TIE).

I felt that since they always seemed to blow up raiders with one hit and even near misses seemed to blow up the raiders in the old series. I felt 3 dice allowed for them to blow up ships in one hit concistant with that effect in the show.

skiman94 wrote:
I felt that since they always seemed to blow up raiders with one hit and even near misses seemed to blow up the raiders in the old series. I felt 3 dice allowed for them to blow up ships in one hit concistant with that effect in the show.

Your better off sticking with less attack dice. Making these thing uber will kill your chances of using them against your mates more than once.



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On the other hand, I love the idea.

Good job with the model find.

skiman94 wrote:
I felt that since they always seemed to blow up raiders with one hit and even near misses seemed to blow up the raiders in the old series. I felt 3 dice allowed for them to blow up ships in one hit concistant with that effect in the show.

TIEs do the same to X-wings in the Star Wars movies.

Also, are you aiming for original BSG or new BSG?

I agree that they are just too good. You really need to tone down the abilities and the costs.

The paint and model are just fine, if a hair too big. We are sort of spoiled by the quality of the pre-paints in our game.
I'm interested in what a Raptor would be...

Well I was going for original series . As far as the attack dice making them uber good if I told you I have played 6 games with them at the 50 points level and told you I have lost 4 and won 2 would that change your mind. Because think of it this way , they are still just souped up tie fighters that cost a alot. I have faced Awings and Bwings and Tie fighter swarms with these and not won more than I have lost. They usually fall to the old 40k axiom against space marines make them roll saves. Anyway thanks for all the input I just put this out there again for people to have their own templates and ideas with vipers. Who knows maybe fantasy flight is watching and may get its own versions of these out. I know I would buy them

Fantasy Flight does have the license for Battlestar Galactica games... I'm sure its crossed their mind. The issue is that it isn't very expandable... there are only the 2 Galactica ships and one Cylon ship...

skiman94 wrote:
Well I was going for original series . As far as the attack dice making them uber good if I told you I have played 6 games with them at the 50 points level and told you I have lost 4 and won 2 would that change your mind. Because think of it this way , they are still just souped up tie fighters that cost a alot. I have faced Awings and Bwings and Tie fighter swarms with these and not won more than I have lost. They usually fall to the old 40k axiom against space marines make them roll saves. Anyway thanks for all the input I just put this out there again for people to have their own templates and ideas with vipers. Who knows maybe fantasy flight is watching and may get its own versions of these out. I know I would buy them

Where you paying attention when I said that these were TIE Interceptors which you had upgraded free of cost? Basically, you've given these guys every action, and good stats in everything except shields. The fact you are losing proves nothing; this game puts a lot of emphasis on player skill. The end result is that these ships just come across as you going "OMG I LUV VIPERS THEY R SO CEWL" and slapping a bunch of abilities in a pile without even comparing to similar ships (TIE Interceptor) rather than any interesting game design project.

I'd drop target lock. Vipers are slippery as can be, but their electronics suite is primitive. Given the amount of visual scanning done in both series, no one really trusts their HUD or radar to keep track of bogeys.

Now a modification of some kind to represent their constant stream of fire would be very interesting. Something like FP 2, but any hit that lands may be rerolled once for a potential of 2 damage would differentiate their weapons nicely from the standard lasers of the Star Wars ships.

skiman94 wrote:
Because think of it this way , they are still just souped up tie fighters that cost a alot.

Except they don't cost a lot. You're paying the same cost as a PS 4 TIE interceptor for the exact same ship but with a built-in target lock A target lock modification costs you two points and your modification slot, so you're at least two points cheaper than the existing identical ship. And when you account for the fact that you get to keep your modification slot free your ship is now 3-4 points too cheap. Unless you've given this thing an absolutely crippling maneuver dial all you've done is take an existing ship and make it better for no good reason.

Plus, as I said already, making a ship that can do everything is just bad game design. One of the things that makes X-Wing so interesting is that you can't have everything on one ship, you always have to make sacrifices and do the best you can with what you're able to take. By negating one of the two drawbacks of the TIE interceptor (the inability to stack actions on offense) you've made a ship that is much less interesting even if you fix the point cost issue.

Well Like I said this is just an Idea All of you can take and modify as you see fit. I apprcieate all of your input( even the stuff I disagree with).

I like them ski man!
I'm not sure, but I don't think there was a slide chart for points cost when the designers made the game, and if your just playing with your buddies, WHO CARES RIGHT?
Game on bro!!
BTW- gods job on the conversion, even if it was just a keychain!!

I'd go with something like this:







Same as a tie fighter, but a 1 point charge because that maneuver dial is to die for. the one U-turn makes it a have the the close, in-fighting potential of a B wing, but the rest of the dial gives it the maneuverability of an interceptor. In short, it's a pure dog fighter that has some speed. With boost and barrel roll, it has all the tools it needs to get into and out of firing arcs when in close, and has the speed to close the distance fast, if necessary. I think the maneuver dial does enough to differentiate it from a tie fighter, and gives it its own niche.

No evasion action though. In the show those things are essentially bricks with engines strapped on to make them go really fast. They don't really jink around like tie fighters do, but instead rely on their ability to change directions quickly via acceleration with those three powerful engines. No target lock either, as they usually leave the missiles and sensors to the multipurpose recon craft (raptors, I think).


But yeah, as others have pointed out, if you keep the 3 firepower dice, it needs to cost more. As of now, I don't think your suggestion does anything different that what's already there on table. I can take a TIE interceptor and add a targeting computer and pretty much have the same thing :/ Still, if you like the targeting computer, at least up the points to where it is even with a TIE interceptor+targeting computer. Crazy_carnifex sums it up well, IMO. While vipers are really cool, I think the better way to represent their coolness is to make them unique by filling a unique and interesting niche in play, instead of throwing in everything and the kitchen sink, then subtracting points.

 kestril wrote:
Same as a tie fighter, but a 1 point charge because that maneuver dial is to die for.

That maneuver dial is just way too much for a one point upgrade. A-wings and TIE interceptors are supposed to be the ultimate maneuverable dogfighters and they don't have anywhere near that many greens or the short k-turn. Essentially you've made a ship with a maneuver dial of "whatever you want to do". The only maneuver sequence you can't do is consecutive k-turns, and nobody gets to do that. You can k-turn and go wherever you want next turn, PTL every turn and clear your stress without having to make any hard choices about what maneuver to use, etc.

Also, the b-wing gets its short k-turn because that's its only k-turn. It's great for knife fighting, but sometimes you just want to fly clear of the whole mess as you turn around. And when that happens you really wish you were flying an x-wing. Your ship gets an even shorter k-turn for the situations when you want a short one, but still has the traditional long k-turn for when you want to disengage. It's all of the benefits of the knife fighting maneuver dial but none of the drawbacks.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kestril wrote:
Same as a tie fighter, but a 1 point charge because that maneuver dial is to die for.

That maneuver dial is just way too much for a one point upgrade. A-wings and TIE interceptors are supposed to be the ultimate maneuverable dogfighters and they don't have anywhere near that many greens or the short k-turn. Essentially you've made a ship with a maneuver dial of "whatever you want to do". The only maneuver sequence you can't do is consecutive k-turns, and nobody gets to do that. You can k-turn and go wherever you want next turn, PTL every turn and clear your stress without having to make any hard choices about what maneuver to use, etc.

Also, the b-wing gets its short k-turn because that's its only k-turn. It's great for knife fighting, but sometimes you just want to fly clear of the whole mess as you turn around. And when that happens you really wish you were flying an x-wing. Your ship gets an even shorter k-turn for the situations when you want a short one, but still has the traditional long k-turn for when you want to disengage. It's all of the benefits of the knife fighting maneuver dial but none of the drawbacks.

My mistake! I thought the A-wing's dial had green 3-banks. In that case, those should definitely be white.

So how much do you think that maneuver dial is worth? One option is to bump it up two points or so.

One option is to only have extremes with a 1 K-turn and a 5k-turn. So it's either one or the other, and neither may be the best call for the situation.

The other option is to get rid of the 4 k-turn entirely, and keep the 1 k, or vice-versa.

 kestril wrote:
So how much do you think that maneuver dial is worth? One option is to bump it up two points or so.

If you get rid of the green 3 banks and do something about the k-turn you could probably leave the point cost as it is. Paying +1 point for some extra greens on a TIE fighter probably isn't breaking the game, and +2 points would be a safe conservative guess.

One option is to only have extremes with a 1 K-turn and a 5k-turn. So it's either one or the other, and neither may be the best call for the situation.

That works better in theory than in principle. Usually you want a k-turn in two situations: to turn around while staying at close range against a specific ship (preferably one with limited maneuvering options next turn), or to disengage back out to long range and make that 90* arc cover as much table space as possible against an unpredictable target while setting up for another pass. Having the two extremes isn't really a drawback because the extremes are almost always better than a "middle" option. The 1 k-turn is even better than the b-wing's 2 k-turn in a lot of knife fight situations, and the 5 k-turn is better than the x-wing's 4 k-turn for disengaging. So what you have is a ship that will probably make the traditional "long" k-turn most of the time, but has the extra option to turn short if you need it.

What if you didn't give it the long K-turn at all?

I'm leaning more and more towards that option. That would certainly make the ship unique! I may start another thread on the matter though, because I don't really want to hi-jack this one.

It does make sense, Vipers don't do a loop-de-loop after all. It's an immediate reverse, something that you don't even see interceptors do in the films. And something that happened... very very slowly when stopped in the X Wing games.

The super-short K-turn is incredibly stressful on the body (being a huge momentum change in a very small amount of time). I'd almost have it be a special ability on its own, like Boost. "Perform this maneuver and receive 2 stress tokens..."
I also think that the 3 banks shouldn't be green.

Anpu-adom wrote:
The super-short K-turn is incredibly stressful on the body (being a huge momentum change in a very small amount of time). I'd almost have it be a special ability on its own, like Boost. "Perform this maneuver and receive 2 stress tokens..."
I also think that the 3 banks shouldn't be green.

Don't stress tokens already represent this? I mean, aside from tycho, stress doesn't happen by degrees in this game. You're either stressed, or your not. One action/critical damage card gives one stress token. I don't see what excepts the viper from the pattern already in-game.

An alternative is to make the 2-turns white, and keep the 3-banks green. I think this is more fitting, because vipers go in strait lines better than they curve and turn. They are meant to be short-range interceptors, after all. I also think that would further differentiate them from tie fighters.

In the Spanish Forum Escuadron Picaro we are made all rules for Battlestar Galactica starships.
http://foro.escuadronpicaro.es/t266-battlestar-galactica
We decided that Viper need more Hull
Can you help us?
you can find the new cards here http://elrincondelgolem.blogspot.com.es/p/x-wing-naves-experimentales.htm

kestril wrote:I'd go with something like this:







Same as a tie fighter, but a 1 point charge because that maneuver dial is to die for. the one U-turn makes it a have the the close, in-fighting potential of a B wing, but the rest of the dial gives it the maneuverability of an interceptor. In short, it's a pure dog fighter that has some speed. With boost and barrel roll, it has all the tools it needs to get into and out of firing arcs when in close, and has the speed to close the distance fast, if necessary. I think the maneuver dial does enough to differentiate it from a tie fighter, and gives it its own niche.

No evasion action though. In the show those things are essentially bricks with engines strapped on to make them go really fast. They don't really jink around like tie fighters do, but instead rely on their ability to change directions quickly via acceleration with those three powerful engines. No target lock either, as they usually leave the missiles and sensors to the multipurpose recon craft (raptors, I think).


But yeah, as others have pointed out, if you keep the 3 firepower dice, it needs to cost more. As of now, I don't think your suggestion does anything different that what's already there on table. I can take a TIE interceptor and add a targeting computer and pretty much have the same thing :/ Still, if you like the targeting computer, at least up the points to where it is even with a TIE interceptor+targeting computer. Crazy_carnifex sums it up well, IMO. While vipers are really cool, I think the better way to represent their coolness is to make them unique by filling a unique and interesting niche in play, instead of throwing in everything and the kitchen sink, then subtracting points.

I like where you're going with this. The short k-turn really fits the ships in the show and should definitely be included.

They usually deploy a good number of vipers in the show, so I'd be hesitant to jack up points values. I think one way to keep them down would be to go to 2 attack dice and removing the target lock and focus actions. I know this is crazy, because every ship has a focus action, but flying a viper isn't treated like flying an x-wing in that there's a lot of focus in the show on how much of a physical strain it is to fly the craft. The high maneuverability, boost and barrel roll actions are good (and I would include an evade just because I think a ship with no shields needs it, and it fits the maneuverability theme), but you could make an argument that a generic viper pilot is too engaged in just flying the ship to be able to perform the focus action. Not being able to reroll or modify attack dice would make that three dice a lot less powerful and therefore more balanced, and at 2 dice you could actually put them down towards TIE fighter values because they are a more maneuverable option with less consistent firepower. If you like, unique pilots like Apollo or Starbuck could have the focus action available to represent their superior skill to the average pilot.