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Trying to focus on as few, but necessary, nerfs as possible, targeting the units that people have problems with without attacking stuff that's largely innocent.

General.
Scatter Laser: Laser Lock only works for missiles but will now work per unit rather than per model. (Would be per phase, but then I remembered that Dark Reapers are a thing that's not in need of a buff)

HQ.
Jetbike: Cost increased to 25 points. (Also addresses a pretty disgusting internal balance issue where a Jetbike used to cost the same as a jump pack or a jet pack)

Wave Serpent.
Serpent Shield: Returned to 4th edition style strength and armour bane reduction.
Serpent Shield: Shooting attack is limted to 24"

Wraithknight.
Suncannon: Heavy 1, Large Blast. (uncertain whether this is a nerf or a buff in most situations, but can no longer tripple-dip when shooting at teleporting Termies)

I'm a bit uncertain of the Wraithknight (far enough, needs more?), but I feel this will address many of the concerns people have about the codex that is not easy to write off as the whining that will accompany any army that's solid. I'll keep the necessary buffs out of this thread, but keep in mind that the codex needs those, too, since it's got quite a few problems as well (though when compared to the amount of obsolete gak you'd have to put up with in 5th edition... it's a marked improvement).

No change for Wraithknight.

The primary offenders are Wave Serpent, pseudo rending, and Jet seer.

Laser lock isn't even that soul crushing if the platforms could be engaged and destroyed by AT fire.

Still haven't faced Wraithknight. We've only got one built in our group and it isn't mine. I do see a lot of people complaining about 2+ Wraithknights. Maybe it's more a case of "it's so frustratingly boring to play against"?

I've played too many games without pseudo-rending on Shuriken Weapons. Take that away and you have to give them something significant in return. I've got a few things in mind, but that's not what this thread is about.

No, we don't have to give them anything. They still have the scatter laser, arguably the most efficient weapon in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
No, we don't have to give them anything. They still have the scatter laser, arguably the most efficient weapon in the game.

I addressed the Scatter Laser. And, yes you do have to give them something, because removing pseudo-rend will make Guardians nothing more than ablative wounds for their heavy weapon, and their heavy weapon isn't good enough to justify the point cost - meaning that the only viable troop choice would be reduced to Wraithguard, Wave Serpents (With a 65 point mandatory upgrade) and Rangers. Again.

You can't remove something from a model, make it really bad, and then point at another and say "that one is good". That's how bad internal balance is achieved. That's how a bad and unfun codex is written.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, we don't have to give them anything. They still have the scatter laser, arguably the most efficient weapon in the game.

I addressed the Scatter Laser. And, yes you do have to give them something, because removing pseudo-rend will make Guardians nothing more than ablative wounds for their heavy weapon, and their heavy weapon isn't good enough to justify the point cost - meaning that the only viable troop choice would be reduced to Wraithguard, Wave Serpents (With a 65 point mandatory upgrade) and Rangers. Again.

You can't remove something from a model, make it really bad, and then point at another and say "that one is good". That's how bad internal balance is achieved. That's how a bad and unfun codex is written.

The scatter laser is broken WITHOUT laser lock, so you didn't really address it. I don't think you understand just how OP Eldar really are.

Make the Wave Serpents shield one shot and 12" range...burn it and the save is also lost

Need something to make Banshees actaully playable - maybe give the Wave Serpent Assault Vehicle

 Mr Morden wrote:
Make the Wave Serpents shield one shot and 12" range...burn it and the save is also lost

Need something to make Banshees actaully playable - maybe give the Wave Serpent Assault Vehicle

That's cool. I'm for any list getting anything that makes assault more viable.

If I'm playing against Eldar and I see two or three Wraithknights across from me, I'm generally quite happy. Unless I'm fielding an army of 2+ saves, which I won't be. More points spend on Wraithknights is less points spent on the real tough nuts of the codex, such as Wave Serpents

Wraithknights really aren't that good, and certainly aren't in need of a nerf. It's a good unit, yes, but the nerf bat should be aimed elsewhere.

 Mahtamori wrote:

General.
Scatter Laser: Laser Lock only works for missiles but will now work per unit rather than per model. (Would be per phase, but then I remembered that Dark Reapers are a thing that's not in need of a buff)

Meh... This isn't really needed.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Wave Serpent.
Serpent Shield: Returned to 4th edition style strength and armour bane reduction.
Serpent Shield: Shooting attack is limted to 24"

Reduce the range of the shooting attack to 6" and make the Wave Serpent 90 points

 Mahtamori wrote:

Wraithknight.
Suncannon: Heavy 1, Large Blast. (uncertain whether this is a nerf or a buff in most situations, but can no longer tripple-dip when shooting at teleporting Termies)

Nobody takes the suncannon anyways so this change is unneeded. Just reduce the number of Wounds the Wraithknight has to 4 and remove Fearless.

Also, I would add the following changes too:
- All Phoenix Lords have Eternal warrior
- Farseers and Spiritseers cost +15 points, Warlocks cost +5 points
- Windrider Guardians cost 20ppm
- Howling Banshees can charge out of their transport vehicle (addition to their Acrobatic special rule)
- Fire Dragons cost decreased to 20ppm
- Both the Crimson Hutner and the Hemlock Wraithfighter cost ~20 points less
- Drop the points cost of the Falcon to 110 points

You know that all phoenix lords have Eternal Warrior already, right?

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
You know that all phoenix lords have Eternal Warrior already, right?

I do now !

People are getting really complicated with all their fixes here. I say keep it as simple as possible.

Wave Serpents: Make the shield shot once use only, and you lose the shield bonus permanently for doing so. This IS supposed to be a tactical game, right? I'm all for making things tactical choices rather than "lol i beat u" because your stuff just automatically hits with strength a bajillion every turn.

Jetbikes for HQs: It's really silly how it's an auto-include on every HQ unit that can take one. You mean it's better than a space marine bike, arguably more necessary for the units that can take it (t4 from t3 is super huge) AND I can take it for 5 less points? Herpaderp giev. GIEV NAO.

That's really all I've got. I am okay with the psuedo rending on shuriken weapons because all the units fielding them are squishy as hell and have itty bitty tiny range so they only really get one turn to shoot before dying horrible extreme deaths, or they simply have access to better weapon options anyway.

Wave serpents need a nerf. Or point increase. Also increased cover must act like ig equivalent - you get stealth if you haven't moved. So that you can't just fly across the board with that almost invulnerable vehicle that's also a transport. And nerf offensive capasities of a shield a bit. The thing is a solely existence of wave serpents changes meta too hard. Cause if you ain't got ignore cover and volume of fire than you literally can't do a thing to them. Catch them in mellee? With such mobility and other shooty stuff running around?

Wraithknights need to be changed a bit imo. t8 is a threshhold that makes it gamechanging again. If an opponent goes mass marines (that's actually one of the reasons noone goes this fun lists anymore) he can't do a thing to a wraithknight with it's t8. I'd say it's better off with t7 and built in 5++ instead. It allready has exceptional mobility and cc capability for it's point cost.

Wraithlords on the other hand could get 4 wounds but t6, 5++ and a bit point decrease - i think it'd be a fair deal to have a gun and anti-charge platform with a scatter laser + lance for around 150 pts.

Warp spiders should have a bit point increase for what they do.

Banshees need a buff. It's actually a general ruleset that makes them weak but i think that acrobatic should increase their movement to 9' and a slight bit point decrease (-1 not more). Other than that - an assault transport could be great but there's just nothing apropriate atm.

Eldar psy powers are too overwhelmingly good. They must be but they need to be more expensive to get than a cheapo farseer riding the backfield. Or probably reduced effective range would be good.

And what the heck: Eldar + Dark eldar battle brothers?!!

 koooaei wrote:

Wraithknights need to be changed a bit imo. t8 is a threshhold that makes it gamechanging again. If an opponent goes mass marines (that's actually one of the reasons noone goes this fun lists anymore) he can't do a thing to a wraithknight with it's t8. I'd say it's better off with t7 and built in 5++ instead. It allready has exceptional mobility and cc capability for it's point cost.

T8 is Rhino-level resilience, so hardly game-breaking IMHO. You don't see people dropping their all-bolter lists just because Rhino spam is a thing right?

T8 is closer to AV12 equivalent, S8 needs 4's to damage. The key difference is that a Wraithknight has effectively 6 HPs and a constant 3+ save, which is why it is costed closer to a Land Raider than a Hellhound... They don't need many changes at all tbh, the biggest change I would make to them is to make them 200pts base with Sword and Shield, and then you can pay for any combination of weaponry (so Suncannon + Sword or Wraithcannon + Shield for example).

The Serpent just needs the Shield balanced out, by itself Laser Lock isn't overpowered because there isn't that much that can make use of it. Most other units only have one other weapon to link, and its usually less effective overall than two of the same weapon. I still have this theory that the 0 on the end of the range for the Shield was a typo at some point (based on the fluff it is described as a short range weapon) and GW just ran with it. Tbh I don't think you would see Serpents used at all if the Shield was range 6", but somewhere around 24" would be ok I think.

Ignoring some points tweaks (Jetbikes and Jetbikes for characters being good examples) a few other ideas:
- Banshees need some serious help. A proper assault transport would be good, but otherwise you have to let them assault of a transport AND GIVE THEM GRENADES.
- More thought needs to be put in to the combos you can pull with psychic powers if you keep them together (Warlocks mostly) rather than spread them through the army. Clarify that nothing stacks, maybe limit the armour save power to only infantry. Part of the JetCouncil will be fixed if the Baron + other Dark Eldar gets changed around though. I really wish Warlocks would get Ld9 (they are Battle Leaders, so you would assume they are more experienced than a Militia Guardian) but that would definitely require a points jump with the current batch of powers.
- Wraithfighter gets its own special psychic power which it can actually use the turn it shows up (basically just a shooting version of what it has already would be good). Also change the Heavy D Scythe to Torrent (i.e make them better than normal D Scythes not worse) and it will scare the crap out of infantry (the same way the Crimson Hunter scares the crap out of fliers) but its still going to be made of paper so its not going to be OP.

Overall I think Eldar need some of the least work of any codex, Serpents and Psychic stuff needs some nerfs and Banshees and the Wraithfighter need some buffs but the rest of the codex is actually pretty solid.

To balance the Serpents I'd remove the ability for them to have the Holofield, as it would interfere with the Serpent Shield. And decrease the range/shots on the shield when used.

Make Acrobatic read: "A unit with Acrobatic treats their transport as an Assault Vehicle" so Banshees can be placed in a Serpent/Firestorm/Falcon and assault out of it.

Give Phoenix Lords all Invuln Saves and increase the STR on some of their close combat weapons.

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

Give Storm Guardian's Acrobatic with the above rule.

Falcon needs a points decrease.

Swooping Hawks need a points decrease.

Autarchs need more functionality that doesn't just make them a high points cost, slightly more effective Eldar. Perhaps Exarch powers that can be spread to other units or the ability to make certain Aspects scoring, like we originally HOPED would happen

Wraithknights are fearsome, and rightly so, but they have never made me feel like I wasn't in the game.

Make the Jetseer council illegal. Just remove this unit. It doesn't need to exist and 2+ rerollable shouldn't be in the game. Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

Nerf the Wave Serpent. A lot. But give it assault with transporters or something. I'm fine with that. Give the banshees a new lease on life.

Pseudo rending and battle focus are fine, but the models with these abilities are undercosted; maybe a few minor points adjustments are in order.

Keep in mind one thing about the knight. If a weapon is strong enough to effectively damage it, then it will bypass it's armor.

Get rid of the WS cover ignoring shield shot thingy and it all balances on its own. Not sure why that ability was added to the WSs. It was completely unnecessary.

 Deuce11 wrote:
Get rid of the WS cover ignoring shield shot thingy and it all balances on its own. Not sure why that ability was added to the WSs. It was completely unnecessary.

Jetseer councils are still cracked.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Reduce the range of the shooting attack to 6" and make the Wave Serpent 90 points

Ehh... the changes to Wave Serpents were:
Shield started shooting
Shield's defence got situationally better
Price on Starcannon and Brightlance went down to levels where they are worth taking
Price on Eldar Missile Launcher went up to a level where it's not worth taking
+1BS

Price wasn't really touched and I can't say that the old Wave Serpent was bad. Overpriced, absolutely, but you really needed to pick the model apart for analysis to see this - which is always the case for a model that allows very high tactical flexibility. It wasn't far off it's price mark, though.

I'd say that the Wave Serpent, if you completely remove the shield shooting, isn't far off the mark for a good price. Maybe a bit inexpensive, even.

Also, I would add the following changes too:
- All Phoenix Lords have Eternal warrior
- Farseers and Spiritseers cost +15 points, Warlocks cost +5 points
- Windrider Guardians cost 20ppm
- Howling Banshees can charge out of their transport vehicle (addition to their Acrobatic special rule)
- Fire Dragons cost decreased to 20ppm
- Both the Crimson Hutner and the Hemlock Wraithfighter cost ~20 points less
- Drop the points cost of the Falcon to 110 points

Farseer cost: I play with Farseers a lot, but on foot, I have some problems making them work properly unless I play some sort of gunline army. I find them generally unattractive the more I play with them and long for a decent model to use as Autarch.
Spiritseer: these are good, but not for their own function. I find overall that I can get better price:performance out of them than Farseers
Warlocks: I don't take these anymore. They are horrible and terribly overpriced. I have never, ever, used a Warlock as anything other than handicap for my opponent.

Psychers: In conclution, no. Their foot-slogging modes are unattractive, meaning it's their jetbike models that needs to be nerfed. Suggestion in OP increased THAT version by 10 points for all of them.

Howling Banshees: buffs are off topic However, I will say this, that Eldar melee is dysfunctional. If you mechanize your anti-power armour, you need to mechanize your anti-terminator and anti-horde units as well so you can't selectively give Banshees the ability that Harlequin and Scorpions also need.
Fire Dragons: buffs are off topic I haven't played them enough since release to gauge their new worth. I feel I may be surprised and would for now take the stance that they are fine (Tactical Marine Fine™ ).
Crimson Hunter: I feel this model is roughly where it should be. It dies to Bolters so you really need to figure out where to put it. Again, though, buffs are off topic.
Wraithfighter: This model is sooo bad. There's too many models that are immune to it's effect that it's not worth even looking at. Needs to be redefined.
Falcons: Well... buffs are off topic, but I don't think a price drop to a level that represents their value will make them played unless you also make them DT

 Deuce11 wrote:
Get rid of the WS cover ignoring shield shot thingy and it all balances on its own. Not sure why that ability was added to the WSs. It was completely unnecessary.

Because the Wave Serpent comes from fluff. It's a heavy assault transport that was introduced in the anals of 40k history and for the longest of time existed as a semi-superheavy transport in Epic. It really did have a nasty shield shot there, but then again it existed in a rules subset where titans were more or less your mandatory troop choice. If I don't recall completely wrong, the Wave Serpent could also transport more than any Land Raider could in Epic, but I may have that confused with a different vehicle.

Martel732 wrote:
Wraithknights are fearsome, and rightly so, but they have never made me feel like I wasn't in the game.

Make the Jetseer council illegal. Just remove this unit. It doesn't need to exist and 2+ rerollable shouldn't be in the game. Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

In 3rd edition you couldn't buy Jetbikes for Farseers "they are far too old and proud to go scooting about on jetbikes" or something like that was written in the codex.

Nerf the Wave Serpent. A lot. But give it assault with transporters or something. I'm fine with that. Give the banshees a new lease on life.

Pseudo rending and battle focus are fine, but the models with these abilities are undercosted; maybe a few minor points adjustments are in order.

Please elaborate on the last part. I'm Ulthwé at heart so I sort of hold my Guardians sacrosanct, but if I were forced to remove pseudo-rending from somewhere I'd remove it from Warp Spiders. I think their +str mechanic is nice, but don't feel the rending part actually needs to be on their weapon, and would perhaps expand on the strength gain based on initiative instead.

 koooaei wrote:
And what the heck: Eldar + Dark eldar battle brothers?!!

Lots of threads about this in fluff forums. That's one of very few Battle Brother unions that makes sense in 40k. People just need to pay attention to the fluff a bit more, and I don't mean the fluff written by authors that can't handle the scheming intelligent alien - which is admittedly hard.

Howling Banshees: buffs are off topic However, I will say this,

If you reduce the range of the Wave serpants shield shooting to 12" and make it one shot but also make it an assault vehicle to balance it and Howling Banshees its all part of the quest to balance Eldar properely .

I wish all these threads just didn't turn into unreasonable butthurt fests, I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

If the wraithknight is to be changed both the riptide and dreadknight need to be redone aswell as they are atleast on the same level of offense

I can agree with the warlock council, but not on the form of destroying a already expensive ld 8 psyker, 2++ reroll should be solved through actual rules so things like screamerstar and anything else of that level stop exsisting, it's just anti fun, I'd much rather have ld9 warlocks that actually function as real squad leaders

If people seriously complain about blade storm on things like guardians with 12 inch range???? where's the complaints about tesla ? This is how you know this thread is butthurt and not actual real minds congregating, this edition isn't about ignoring saves it's about forcing them over and over again, until your dead

Laser lock is fine only reason it makes such a big deal with people is the after mentioned serpent, only thing it effects besides is guardians and if 18- 24 inch range is your issue ..on 9 points veteran guardsmen stats well.... You should probably be surfing the tactics thread

You can't benefit from Laser Lock with Guardians. Only Wave Serpent, Wraithknight, War Walker, Vyper and Falcon can benefit from Laser Lock.

And yes, I do agree that the game needs proper active errata.

Only reason I wouldn't advocate removing the shield's shooting entirely is that the shield is meant to be able to shoot according to fluff. (And that the Wave Serpent is the only DT and it would be ridiculously expensive in that capacity if priced according to it's performance)

 Arthas367 wrote:
I wish all these threads just didn't turn into unreasonable butthurt fests, I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

If the wraithknight is to be changed both the riptide and dreadknight need to be redone aswell as they are atleast on the same level of offense

Agreed sort out these models as well............half shots is not enough. One shot shield gun at 12" range but Assault vehicle would make for a better game IMO

 Arthas367 wrote:
I wish all these threads just didn't turn into unreasonable butthurt fests, I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

If the wraithknight is to be changed both the riptide and dreadknight need to be redone aswell as they are atleast on the same level of offense

I can agree with the warlock council, but not on the form of destroying a already expensive ld 8 psyker, 2++ reroll should be solved through actual rules so things like screamerstar and anything else of that level stop exsisting, it's just anti fun, I'd much rather have ld9 warlocks that actually function as real squad leaders

If people seriously complain about blade storm on things like guardians with 12 inch range???? where's the complaints about tesla ? This is how you know this thread is butthurt and not actual real minds congregating, this edition isn't about ignoring saves it's about forcing them over and over again, until your dead

Laser lock is fine only reason it makes such a big deal with people is the after mentioned serpent, only thing it effects besides is guardians and if 18- 24 inch range is your issue ..on 9 points veteran guardsmen stats well.... You should probably be surfing the tactics thread

Stormravens are already marginal. Vendetta, however, do kick total butt. I have never once complained about guardians, other than that maybe they should cost 1 more point for pseudorending on a BS 4 model.

Why is everyone so obsessed with getting Banshees an assault vehicle? The Serpent just doesn't feel like an assault vehicle. Perhaps give Banshees something else?

The Serpent needs a nerf, definitely. I've posted a few ideas elsewhere. A lot of these ideas neuter the *only* DT Eldar have, the only transport in the codex that can handle more than 6 men. It makes the Devilfish look cheap.

Someone suggested to treat the range as a typo, and give the gun a 6" range. Brilliant! I think that accomplishes exactly what we need. Makes it an oh-crap move like it should be. We should also see a ton of other turrets on the Serpent.

Pseudo rending and scatter lasers seem fine - we pay for them - but jetseer council can get rather rough.

For Banshees, how about giving them the ability to charge after running? Just think about what that would allow...

Banshees REALLY need assault grenades too. Serpent Shield range should be 6~12 in, max. Autarch should have stuff like Path of the Avenger, or Path of the Banshee, something that buffs that type of unit.

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:
Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

Well, it seems I'm the only one running a Seer Council on foot but I can't figure out, why this unit should be dissolved. The Warlocks function as a bodyguard/council/what have you now which is in the fluff canon. The only issue is the horrendously low price on the Jetbikes option. Bump it up to 25-30 points for Farseers and Warlocks (because they do profit so much more of it than an Autarch).