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Power creep is meaningless if every list is the same power.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

No. Just no. Tau don't have more advanced tech than Eldar.

Is pulse weaponry more powerful than shurikin? Yes, it is. I did say that I agree that the eldar have more advanced tech then tau in general, but tau have some tech that is more advanced that eldar. The eldar's main strength in warp and physic tech, which the tau lack. Tua have very strong weaponry, but lack much of the super weaponry that eldar have. Eldar do have (in general) the best tech (other than necrons at times). That is not to say that eldar always have the best tech.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

No. Just no. Tau don't have more advanced tech than Eldar.

Is pulse weaponry more powerful than shurikin? Yes, it is.

Not fluffwise.

Fluff wise Eldar (along with DE) are the second most technologically advanced races in the world. Simply put, Tau technology has NOTHING on Eldar tech yet. Necrons have the best technology and daemons don't count since they are magical warp dust. Simply put, Tau guns are inferior to Eldar technology fluff wise. That being said, it's an attempt to balance things out.

Martel732 wrote:
Power creep is meaningless if every list is the same power.

That's never going to happen with GW, as it requires all codices to be released at the same time, or remain mostly the same through the editions. And that wouldn't sell so much models.

But some toning down on the current top dogs(not the entire codex, just the few things adjusted in performance or prices) and boost to the other codices in the same respect(for instance, a tactical marine should be able to choose whether to go pistol-cc weapon or bolter or both, appropriately costed, or stuff like Storm Ravens should be able to choose whether to pay for their ability to transport a Dreadnought. If you don't have one in your list, that ability is useless.).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Fluff wise Eldar (along with DE) are the second most technologically advanced races in the world. Simply put, Tau technology has NOTHING on Eldar tech yet. Necrons have the best technology and daemons don't count since they are magical warp dust. Simply put, Tau guns are inferior to Eldar technology fluff wise. That being said, it's an attempt to balance things out.

Tau guns are also more powerful than eldar guns fluffwise. It says in the tau codex on pulse rifles and carbines "Their range and hitting power outclasses the standard weapons of every race the Tau have yet encountered." I do agree that eldar do have better tech than tau, just that tau have better tech in some cases. All the technological advanced races (humans, necrons, tau) have some tech which outclasses it's eldar equivalent, but it's usually rare and expensive (or in the case of tau, they are a relatively small race). I do agree that tau tech is inferior to eldar tech, accept in a few cases (pulse rifles are a good example).

A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

Xenology more or less flat out tells you that the Tau only got where they are because the Eldar created the Ethereals and helped guide them along from the shadows.

And a great deal of Eldar are very sympathetic to the Tau, up to and including Eldrad.

In other words, you only exist because the Elves think you're useful for some long term plan.

 Kain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

Xenology more or less flat out tells you that the Tau only got where they are because the Eldar created the Ethereals and helped guide them along from the shadows.

And a great deal of Eldar are very sympathetic to the Tau, up to and including Eldrad.

It does? Doesn't it also say that tau are scared of loud noises, genestealers have blunt claes, and shuriken weapons can't penetrate flack armour (or was that the uplifting primer).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

Xenology more or less flat out tells you that the Tau only got where they are because the Eldar created the Ethereals and helped guide them along from the shadows.

And a great deal of Eldar are very sympathetic to the Tau, up to and including Eldrad.

It does? Doesn't it also say that tau are scared of loud noises, genestealers have blunt claes, and shuriken weapons can't penetrate flack armour (or was that the uplifting primer).

That's the uplifting Primer.

Xenology is a very cool, out of print in universe documentation of the various alien races of 40k. Much of what we know about the minor races for example, comes mostly from Xenology. It's a must have if you're into Xenos but next to impossible to acquire legally.

Xenology also contains large amounts of stuff that's flat out wrong. Hooves anyone? Still not certain about Eldar being reptiles, but that's also from Xenology while other canon material suggests human and Eldar can breed.

But enough of the fluff.

AA is actually a section that the Eldar is lacking. There's only one unit that can do it for a justifiable price (the air superiority fighter, no less) and one that has weapons designed for it but due to prohibitive costs chooses less than ideal costs and hope for 6's (War Walkers). Other than this, it's actually massed amounts of Wave Serpents with Scatter Lasers that's the best bet to take down air. Warp Spiders can do it as well, but they aren't good at it and will leave themselves out in the open unless the aircraft is poorly positioned.

Also, I have another simple thing in mind that'll mitigate Wave Serpents even more: all aspect warrior squads cost 10 points more and include an Exarch as a non-optional model.
Force people to care about the squads that's being transported, just that little extra.

For the Jetcouncil, which I should add is a very Saim-Hann thing, you could also add like someone suggested a very strong restriction in the number of Warlocks allowed to accompany a Farseer. One or two maybe, but allow the entire group to join any unit.

As for the Eldar Psychic powers (Fate), they're really bad, honestly. Some of them have great concept, but playing almost exclusively with psychers as HQ for a very long while have led me to wish Farseers had access to the Warlock psychic powers. GW really nailed it with the Warlock psychic power set, they are versatile but all in all rather weak, but still there's only a single result that's highly situational (Destructor/Renew).
And for whoever tried to say Mind War is a good psychic power... I don't know what to say, honestly, to even have that conclusion from something that I'd only ever take for a STRONGLY story driven campaign... I don't know. Costs TWO warp charges, requires the Farseer to HIT the target, also requires the Farseer to roll incredibly low on the psychic test to choose target, and has a drawback if it fails on it's secondary test and still allows for invulnerable saves?!
It was bad back when it didn't require a hit, back when it cost one warp charge and back when it allowed you to choose model to be hit at well (although it allowed cover saves) and it is now worse on almost every account.
Yes, it can do impressive stuff, but it's highly stacked against the Farseer. The average result of a Mind War is for the hostile model to suffer no wounds but get "blinded". For two warp charge.
Because it costs two warp charges, that makes it the worst of all focussed witchfires since Spontaneous Combustion while having shorter range allows you to cast stuff like Terrify the same turn.
Also, you'll find that that cheap artefact does very little for the Eldar tables and a lot more for Telepathy.

I don't roll on the Runes of Fate table more than once, because 3 of 6 results are horrible and 1 of the remaining 3 is undesirable (that being Eldritch)

The Fate table (and that "cheap" gem, which I have never taken since it's typically paying points to be able to use spells I don't necessarily get nor necessarily want) would be much more interesting if all the powers were designed to be WC2. And I do mean designed, not the half-arsed attempt you find with Mind War and Death Mission.

 Mahtamori wrote:

AA is actually a section that the Eldar is lacking. There's only one unit that can do it for a justifiable price (the air superiority fighter, no less) and one that has weapons designed for it but due to prohibitive costs chooses less than ideal costs and hope for 6's (War Walkers). Other than this, it's actually massed amounts of Wave Serpents with Scatter Lasers that's the best bet to take down air. Warp Spiders can do it as well, but they aren't good at it and will leave themselves out in the open unless the aircraft is poorly positioned.

Also, I have another simple thing in mind that'll mitigate Wave Serpents even more: all aspect warrior squads cost 10 points more and include an Exarch as a non-optional model.
Force people to care about the squads that's being transported, just that little extra.

For the Jetcouncil, which I should add is a very Saim-Hann thing, you could also add like someone suggested a very strong restriction in the number of Warlocks allowed to accompany a Farseer. One or two maybe, but allow the entire group to join any unit.

AA - which Codex woud you rate as having even as good or better than Eldar - other than Tau and Necrons? Again if the Serpant can do this as well - yet another reason its too good

Wave Serpants - the problem is def not the contents its the vehicle itself, some Aspects (banshees) are terrible as it is Alot of Serpents don't carry Aspect Warriors in games.

The Serpent needs a hefty points cost increase or a reduction in abilities.

C:SM actually has dedicated ground to air.

Also, did you read the first post? This thread is all about reducing the Wave Serpent's abilities in a sensible manner.

Yes I did - its the definatioin of sensible that many of us are going to disagree on I think

But as I pointed out the problem is def not with the contents - why pick on Aspect Warriors to try adn balance the problem with the actual vehicle?

I still think they should faq the Wraith Knight to have a 2+ save instead of the 3+ so it can be in line with the Riptide.

Zakiriel, is that satire or do you consider the Wraithknight weak?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yes I did - its the definatioin of sensible that many of us are going to disagree on I think

But as I pointed out the problem is def not with the contents - why pick on Aspect Warriors to try adn balance the problem with the actual vehicle?

Actually, I see this as also correcting the codex to be closer to the fluff in that no responsible Exarch would ever let their protégées out in battle without him guiding their wayward minds through the dangers of combat (if we ignore minor issues such as physical injury). Reducing Davu is just a side benefit.

Also, codex is missing a light transport.

hmmm So are you restricting the Wave Serpant to only be able to carry Aspect Warriors?

Still need to do something about the artillery aspect of the craft as that does not match the fluff either. needs to be short range and/or one shot IMO

How does this help Banshees?

 Zakiriel wrote:
I still think they should faq the Wraith Knight to have a 2+ save instead of the 3+ so it can be in line with the Riptide.

How about faq the riptide to have a 3+ save instead of a 2+ save?

I'd so go for that!

 Araenion wrote:
SRSFACE:

The part about AA is true to an extent, but the problem is that the most common Flyers(Heldrakes, Vendettas, Night Scythes) are a big problem for Eldar, not just because they are hard to take down, but also because of what they do to our stuff. You can't Intercept it because we have no Intercept, so you just have to grind your teeth and hope their alpha-strike isn't so devastating it cripplies your army. So no, we don't do AA well and Flyers are a thorn in pretty much every pure Eldar list, except Serpent spam.

Sorry if I came across as insulting. Was not intentional. I haven't been in a good place mentally and I deal with that through sarcastic humor which is unfair to put on people I don't really know through the internet as they don't know it's coming from a place of humor rather than a place of just antagonistic crap. So, sorry. I really didn't mean to come across as rudely as I did.

Anyway to address the rest of this:
I'm saying that's not any worse than it is for any other army out there except Tau and Necron. Space Marines that want to field Interceptor have to turn to Forgeworld and pay a pretty steep price for Mortis-Pattern anything AND give up one of their heavy support slots which tend to be in high demand for that codex.

Eldar within their own rulebook do anti-air better than Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Wolves Orks, Sisters, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Daemons. I'd tie them with Space Marines/Blood Angels, giving a slight edge to them maybe because of Mortis-Pattern dreads. (Even with those, I still rank Dark Angels lower because that's ALL they have and they lack Hunter/Stalker and Storm Talons/Ravens). That puts them at 4th or 5th best. Being middle of the road against something that is still completely new to this edition and borderline broken anyway actually strikes me as doing it rather well.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Sorry if I came across as insulting. Was not intentional. I haven't been in a good place mentally and I deal with that through sarcastic humor which is unfair to put on people I don't really know through the internet as they don't know it's coming from a place of humor rather than a place of just antagonistic crap. So, sorry. I really didn't mean to come across as rudely as I did.

No worries, mate, we'll chuck it up to internet walls, language barriers and the like.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Anyway to address the rest of this:
I'm saying that's not any worse than it is for any other army out there except Tau and Necron. Space Marines that want to field Interceptor have to turn to Forgeworld and pay a pretty steep price for Mortis-Pattern anything AND give up one of their heavy support slots which tend to be in high demand for that codex.

Eldar within their own rulebook do anti-air better than Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Wolves Orks, Sisters, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Daemons. I'd tie them with Space Marines/Blood Angels, giving a slight edge to them maybe because of Mortis-Pattern dreads. (Even with those, I still rank Dark Angels lower because that's ALL they have and they lack Hunter/Stalker and Storm Talons/Ravens). That puts them at 4th or 5th best. Being middle of the road against something that is still completely new to this edition and borderline broken anyway actually strikes me as doing it rather well.

Thing is, half of those codices are from old editions, Sisters have a codex that really can't be called that, and Tyranids, CSM and CD I actually feel have better ways to deal with flyers than Eldar do. Plus, what do Chaos Demons care about any flyer out there, except perhaps the Storm Raven.

Also, if Eldar are middle-of-the-road now vs flyers, imagine where they'll be if Serpent Shield is nerfed to oblivion. That's another reason why we should get something that's dedicated to take care of flyers and is NOT a flyer itself. Falcon fits the bill perfectly, gameplay and fluff-wise.The thing is supposed to have limited flight capability, hanging around in the clouds, swooping down like a bird-of-prey that it takes it's name from and raining fire on the enemy from above.

Swooping Hawks should also have the ability to assault flyers as the appropriately-costed Exarch power.

 Mr Morden wrote:
hmmm So are you restricting the Wave Serpant to only be able to carry Aspect Warriors?

Still need to do something about the artillery aspect of the craft as that does not match the fluff either. needs to be short range and/or one shot IMO

How does this help Banshees?

Errr... no. Guardians are already more expensive since they are 10+ and it doesn't help Banshees because I'm not really discussing the stuff that's in need of help in this thread. Also, as per the original post, the shield is reduced in range significantly. Whether that's significant enough is another matter entirely, but 24" is hardly "artillery". Personally, I'd be happy to play the Serpents without the shot at all.

Well there kind of is an Eldar dedicated AAA vehicle, if you go to FW.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar/ELDAR-FIRESTORM-COMPLETE-KIT.html

So would I. IF the cost was reduced significantly.

About the Firestorm - S6 Skyfire isn't key to fixing Eldar AA. Guided War walkers murder anything <AV 12, including flyers. It's the big 3 that Eldar have issues with: Heldrakes, Vendettas and Storm Ravens. >

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
hmmm So are you restricting the Wave Serpant to only be able to carry Aspect Warriors?

Still need to do something about the artillery aspect of the craft as that does not match the fluff either. needs to be short range and/or one shot IMO

How does this help Banshees?

Errr... no. Guardians are already more expensive since they are 10+ and it doesn't help Banshees because I'm not really discussing the stuff that's in need of help in this thread. Also, as per the original post, the shield is reduced in range significantly. Whether that's significant enough is another matter entirely, but 24" is hardly "artillery". Personally, I'd be happy to play the Serpents without the shot at all.

I don't see the point in discussing only nerfing things - balancing a codex is about making overpowered things less so and making poor choices worth while surely? Both these should be "necessary changes"?

The Shot should do something as its part of the fluff bt it needs top be something that, as you suggest is not used ascombined L/R artillery /AA/anti-tank as it s now - 24" might do it...............might not.

1. I would say the shield should be 3d6+1 all the same rules, but A one shot item. This means that it can still kill flyers but will loose its shield for the rest of the game.
2. Give them 36" range instead of 60" (and maybe cap them to 3/4 per detachment)
3. Make them recharge on a 5+

As for AA eldar are a race that specializes we should have a dedicated AA unit.

Warp spiders should loose rending
War walkers Scat should go up 5 points per model
Jet seer should limit to only eldar Codex. (this stops 2++ re-rollable)
Increase Jetbikes by 5-10 points
Autarch should be able to take a path and pick exarch gear/rules from that path, also make the path troops for 2 slots. (they walked the path, they should have access to all the gear) +1/-1 to yours and , opponents roll for reserves. (make sure theirs come in and yours come after)
Fire prisms are good. Right down the middle maybe +1 strength on shots
Falcons should get Dedicated slot or better fire power. Maybe aa system for 15 points.
All eldar cc needs boost...
Scorpions can infiltrate but get annihilated by any good opponent. Point reduction or Assault vehicles fix them but they still don't hit hard enough to survive or even be called dedicated CC units.
Maybe a 6++ save.
Banshees just need a vehicle for assault. Give them grenades and on the charge +1 to the ap of their weapons. (3 goes to 2)
Harlequins need +1 to invulnerable save. Auto pass their test. Reduce rending to 3points instead of 4.
Fire dragons give the exarch split fire for 5 points. (give us a reason to take him)
Hawks are middle.
5++ save on all pheonix lords (+1 to asurmen). Come on they need it.
Wraithlords need +1 wound and maybe 6/5+ fnp. ( they suck next to the wraith Knight
Wraith Knights maybe a couple of points increase, not to much.

Thats all i can think of for balancing. Tell me what you think in a logical response without but hurt or radical nerf hammering.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I still think they should faq the Wraith Knight to have a 2+ save instead of the 3+ so it can be in line with the Riptide.

But than it needs to go down to toughness 6.

I was in a discussion recently and the topic of Harliquins came up and an idea was floated to help them be more fluffy and survivable on the table top.
The Idea was to take away their 5 up invuln save and instead replace it with a rule like the death leaper has where upon you have to resolve all shooting against them as snap fire.
They are still fragile if you can hit them but as their motif is about being so elusive, mobile and confusing with their holo projectors that it is very hard to target and hit them it was thought this might work out.

What do you think about this idea?

It sounds great, but without a save they will die, maybe a 6++ and make i a 4++ in close combat, with the snapfire rule that you mentioned.