Codex Eldar necessary changes

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**knas ser**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
knas ser wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

Wait, how? 18/6/6 is 0.5, no?

As Mahtamori says, you work out the chance of failure and then subtract it from 100% and this gives you your chance of success (which is near enough 40%).

It gets more interesting when you want to know not just one hit, but your probability spread. Here are the chances of 1/36 with 18 trials for multiple hits:

0 60%
1 31%
2 8%
3 1%
4 <1%

From 4 hits upwards, your chances of scoring that number of hits becomes vanishingly small.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
1/36 chance of glancing is pretty awful. The real problem the Crimson Hunter has is a Stalker or Quad gun has a reasonable chance of glancing it out in one volley, and it has a nearly 100% of dying on the second valley.

Compare to helldrake that can take quad gun volley after quad gun volley after volley.

Yeah, that's the real problem. And from a game design POV it's a problem because you can't just resolve the issue by lowering the points cost of the Crimson Hunter because then against these lists that don't have great counters to air (such as quad guns), it becomes something of an I Win button.

**Mahtamori**

Martel, it really isn't. When placing Crimson Hunters, basic Marines are a serious threat that you have to be careful with. I've found that on properly set up tables I can hide my Hunters from Quad gun fire - or I simply zoom them off the table if there's nothing I need to kill at that moment.

knas ser wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
knas ser wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

I'm not sure what you mean by "difficult English". I'm not sure what part of it isn't clear but I'm happy to clarify. But then you added a smiley face so maybe you don't find it difficult but then I'm confused as to why you'd remark such in the first place. I honestly can't see any obscure words or unclear phrasing. Perhaps "trials"? That's the mathematical term used in Probability for the number of times you make the roll (or flip the coin, etc.). You implied that you'd studied Probability however so I figured the terminology was familiar. And I think it's clear from the context anyway.

Honestly, it's odd to have to say all that, but there's no "difficult English" in what I wrote and I'm honestly getting a bit of an argumentative vibe off you by this point what with your 'ease off' and your pointed comments about me being not the only one who's studied Probability. Of course I'm nit, I was just pointing out a flaw in what you said. I thought I was being helpful.

Mahtamori wrote:
[You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

Actually, i don't know what the AV of the Crimson Hunter was as I'm away from my books. I was using YOUR statement about it being 36 dice rolls on average. If that's off then its actually your original statement that was wrong. The misconception I pointed out has nothing to do with the particular odds, but the fact that you don't have to run all trials (all dice rolls) to get the result, that it comes in the middle. The fact that you're now trying to points score things that have nothing to do with the mathematical principle I was talking about is why I'm taking your responses to me as increasingly adversarial. All I did was point out you were wrong and I did it politely. Why are you getting so defensive.

You're putting too much context in there which isn't present. It's very rarely that I have to piece together sentences or paragraphs due to the word choices, although in retrospect I think it's more due to the fact that I'm quite hungry and that's probably where some of my poor word choices come from. However, when you correct someone you should keep in mind that you invite others to review and correct your own statement, in particular the one you corrected. It's not being defensive, but perhaps misapprehensive about what it was you were trying to point out. Just as I wasn't implying you needed 36 shots to harm a Crimson Hunter, it does seem like you did not intend to state that you had 50% chance of harming a CH with 9 Marines (at sub-12" range), no?

**Martel732**

" I've found that on properly set up tables I can hide my Hunters from Quad gun fire "

And if you don't get the perfect table? BOOM. Hiding is not something you can ever count on in my experience. If a gun has a 48" range, expect to take some fire from it.

**Bharring**

So a 10 man tac squad with no special or heavy weapons, no grenades, and no rerolls have a decent chance of hurting a CH. Throw in Tac tactics, a PG, MM, and a Krak grenade, and that random Tac squad has a good chance of dropping it.

I don't know about other Eldar players, but I usually fish for 6s to handle any AV 10 fliers.

**Martel732**

In general, I don't think the marines are throwing enough dice for this to be that great of a plan. Now Ork shootas.......

**Mr Morden**

Bharring wrote:
So a 10 man tac squad with no special or heavy weapons, no grenades, and no rerolls have a decent chance of hurting a CH. Throw in Tac tactics, a PG, MM, and a Krak grenade, and that random Tac squad has a good chance of dropping it.

I don't know about other Eldar players, but I usually fish for 6s to handle any AV 10 fliers.

As you say ts the same for all flyers of Av10 - need to change all of them if its a problem.....its not an Eldar problem. certainly no reason keep the Cheese Serpent as is

**Bharring**

I think you misunderstand. The Serpent *definitely* needs a nerf. I just want to keep the discussion in line with where it should be. Misunderstanding capabilities of the army aren't going to help reach a consensus.

And the CH is an amazing intercepter/hunter, but not a strong sustained force option, and it'll be crappy if that becomes our only option.

**Mr Morden**

Well also everyone but Tyranids gets An Ageis

**Slayer222**

Also orks flyer is 2/3 the cost of ours and survives small arm fire just as well. It also is a supersonic vehicle while ours is not. And has as much damaging potential as ours in a dog fight against eachover.
every 3 flyers we have they have 41/2.
I also agree that serpents a re a bit overpowered especially taken in large amounts but i already gave solutions on how to fix that, and while Ch are great with serpents, if we loose serpents as an aiding force they fall short of what they should be able to do. Eldar need synergy and unit specialization.

tyranids - get fmc, and are less affected by most flyers. The fmc wins dog fights and is great aa with the devour guns.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Slayer222 wrote:
Also orks flyer is 2/3 the cost of ours and survives small arm fire just as well. It also is a supersonic vehicle while ours is not. And has as much damaging potential as ours in a dog fight against eachover.
every 3 flyers we have they have 41/2.
I also agree that serpents a re a bit overpowered especially taken in large amounts but i already gave solutions on how to fix that, and while Ch are great with serpents, if we loose serpents as an aiding force they fall short of what they should be able to do. Eldar need synergy and unit specialization.

tyranids - get fmc, and are less affected by most flyers. The fmc wins dog fights and is great aa with the devour guns.

The Ork flyers are also S6, which makes them much worse at dealing with AV12 fliers.

**Slayer222**

Yes, but they kill our flyers easily.

**Mr Morden**

Slayer222 wrote:
Also orks flyer is 2/3 the cost of ours and survives small arm fire just as well. It also is a supersonic vehicle while ours is not. And has as much damaging potential as ours in a dog fight against eachover.
every 3 flyers we have they have 41/2.
I also agree that serpents a re a bit overpowered especially taken in large amounts but i already gave solutions on how to fix that, and while Ch are great with serpents, if we loose serpents as an aiding force they fall short of what they should be able to do. Eldar need synergy and unit specialization.

tyranids - get fmc, and are less affected by most flyers. The fmc wins dog fights and is great aa with the devour guns.

The CH is designed to Kill other flyers, it has Vector Strike, deadily weapons and re-rolls as well if it does not cuase damage. Wave Serpants are supposed to be TRANSPORTS not artillery/AA/AT - "I win" buttons

bit overpowered - understatment of the year...........

Yes, but they kill our flyers easily.

Better make them AV 15 then so you can;t loose any games..............

**Slayer222**

Hey if you want to give us av 15 all sides go for it, i will gladly accept it though i will call it op, i will still play with it.
though i would just rather holofields option and av 11 front/side

**Mr Morden**

Slayer222 wrote:
Hey if you want to give us av 15 all sides go for it, i will gladly accept it though i will call it op, i will still play with it.
though i would just rather holofields option and av 11 front/side

So how many mre points are you willing to pay for that - or do you want to make all your units overpowered and undercosted as seems to be the case?

**Mahtamori**

The Crimson Hunter doesn't really need an armour upgrade. I'd not say no to a defensive field like the one on the Nightwing, but it's not at all in any sort of dire straits. 4 S8 shots at that price is a good deal.

Martel: like I mentioned, on-going reserves is a good thing to have.

**Mr Morden**

I'd forgotton abut the Nightwing - anyone used?

**Slayer222**

The ch atleast needs the option to take vehicle upgrades.

**Mahtamori**

Mr Morden wrote:
I'd forgotton abut the Nightwing - anyone used?

Yes, it's a lovely bird. For transport reasons I've not added the tail fins, though, so it looks a bit... flat. Armament is 2 ShuriCans and 2 Bright Lances. It's got the same AV and HP as the CH, slightly cheaper, supersonic and vector dancer. Also has a titan holo field that grants Shrouded. If you have knowledge of the Imperial Aeronautica you also get +1 to jink cover save when evading. It's got not a single upgrade option what so ever. All in all, it's a very decent air superiority fighter and ground attacker. Really difficult to kill due to the high evade cover save.

What I do miss with the Eldar fighters is missiles and I miss bombs on their bombers. If you gave me a bit of free hand I could design a much more interesting Crimson Hunter than GW did, but I'd consider that a buff in the fun department rather than efficiency department, 'cause neither Nightwing nor Crimson Hunter is lacking. In fact, due to the extra evade save from IA, the Nightwing is slightly too good. Wraithfighter is abysmal, however, since due to ATSKNF and it's interaction with Terrify it is defunct in purpose. If ATSKNF didn't exist it would still be too expensive in my mind.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer222 wrote:
The ch atleast needs the option to take vehicle upgrades.

Holo-field: Guess what it does

Spirit Stone: Again, fairly simplistic.
Star Engines: grants super sonic
Ghost Walker: N/A
Vectored Engines: N/A (let's say it's already got them)
Crystal Targeting Matrix: N/A

**Slayer222**

The holofields would be a thing that i would want added to them, that is the minimal to make these units atleast usable without just going lol and removing it the second a fly smashes into your windhsield.

**Mr Morden**

Slayer222 wrote:
The holofields would be a thing that i would want added to them, that is the minimal to make these units atleast usable without just going lol and removing it the second a fly smashes into your windhsield.

I assume you are giving the Dark Eldar flyers the same things...........and what are you giving to the Ork flyers?

**Slayer222**

Actually dark eldar got +1 av, and super sonic speed, night vision,, loses pulse but gains missiles, and can take a 5+ invulnerable save or cover save without jinking. They have upgrades and cost less,

Orks put out more dakka 12-24 shots and can upgrade to make it 18-36 shots. and cost less.

**koooaei**

Slayer222 wrote:
Actually dark eldar got +1 av, and super sonic speed, night vision,, loses pulse but gains missiles, and can take a 5+ invulnerable save or cover save without jinking. They have upgrades and cost less,

Orks put out more dakka 12-24 shots and can upgrade to make it 18-36 shots. and cost less.

Dakkajets have 6 shots, 9 if you add an extra supashoota. Also, it requires a WAAAAAGH to double the number of shots. And i'd not count on that just for some extra s6 ap4 shots cause it's a 1-use only and it gives fleet - and fleet is a few more inches of charge which are way more important usually.

Anywayz, it's interesting to watch how you write: "But Y race has X advantage! I want X for my eldar! I think that all our overpowered and undercosted stuff isn't just enough".

**Slayer222**

actually i am comparing the crap that orks have and saying eldar flyers should be better, but for more points, and i am comparing dark eldar have x, we should also have x. But i decided i am just going to use my night wings cause they are better.

**koooaei**

Slayer222 wrote:
actually i am comparing the crap that orks have and saying eldar flyers should be better, but for more points, and i am comparing dark eldar have x, we should also have x. But i decided i am just going to use my night wings cause they are better.

so orkse should have crap?

Crimson hunters are great. 4 S8 shots with 2 of them being lances at bs4 with rerolls to pen and a possibility to get bs5 on a mobile fairly resilient platform. They're pretty capable of downing any target the turn they enter play. I'd pay for that with my orkses without doubt.
Eldar flyers are just so outclassed by current cheeze that your codex has that you see them rarely.

**Slayer222**

Yes, cheap second hand crap. enough to fill the boards. The eldar should have quality(high points cost) and orks should have quantity(low points cost high model count).
I play all armies equally read all the books, and the army's that i don't have i borrow and trie out to have fun. I've seen the top and the bottom of most lists and while eldar have great lists the codex should have been balanced a little better. (internal and external).I know orks suck right now, but with the new dex i hope they get better so i can remove bucket full of models and watch as the army disintigrates into 1/2 or less the size and still win through mass of numbers. And while eldar are on of my top 3 armies i try to take a objective look at them and dont hate/love them without looking at the units/synergy and trying to see the balance. (ps i hate tau. Miniwargaming)(Need to watch more of their bat reps really good.)

CH, are not survivable don't give me that crap when bolters can down them.

**koooaei**

Slayer222 wrote:
Yes, cheap second hand crap. enough to fill the boards. The eldar should have quality(high points cost) and orks should have quantity(low points cost high model count).
I play all armies equally read all the books, and the army's that i don't have i borrow and trie out to have fun. I've seen the top and the bottom of most lists and while eldar have great lists the codex should have been balanced a little better. (internal and external).I know orks suck right now, but with the new dex i hope they get better so i can remove bucket full of models and watch as the army disintigrates into 1/2 or less the size and still win through mass of numbers. And while eldar are on of my top 3 armies i try to take a objective look at them and dont hate/love them without looking at the units/synergy and trying to see the balance. (ps i hate tau. Miniwargaming)(Need to watch more of their bat reps really good.)

I'd not say orkses are that bad atm. We just have only 2 viable lists cause of how badly 6 ed nerfed footslogas. Biker nobz or wagon rush. With this lists it's possible to compete with top armies if u're a better general - cause you need to outplay people to win with orkses.

Back to the point. Eldar have many good options. They just don't see the board cause of some cheezy options like serpents, wraithknights and cheap farseers with extremely good powers. I think that THIS should be nerfed. Try playing without them and u'll see that the army is still very strong. But at least it doesn't have that auto-win buttons.
Oh, and dark eldar allies...Eldar and dark eldar battle bros?.. That's just like suddenly becoming fine with necrons.

**Slayer222**

I do play with these units but at a minimum, i run Autarch as my hq, 3 serpents(must because i got 2 Da squads and a Fire Dragon squad), 3 war walkers, 2 fire prisms, 2 Ch, replaced by night wings, Rangers, 3 jet bikes, and that's all the model diversity i got, if i could i would get some shining spears, i want to try warp spiders, and their are a couple of other units i want to try. I will not try banshees(like mobile), and swooping hawks(they look like sissy's). (if i could get some of the dark eldar kind and sub them in than yeah i would try them.) The only reason i run 3 is because the troops are too exposed out in the open, if i could have had a falcon(no hv room) then i would only be running 2 but i can't. It usually dies anyway because i rush it forward. I have tried a full scorp list with wraith lords baking it up anr running the da's on foot but every army i played and even when switching to the other side the eldar list got demolished. I don't run 5 da in a serpent its a full squad with an exarch, the serpent in my list is a transport not a weapon with a da cost attached.

**MWHistorian**

Back in 2nd, Banshees were the bee's knees. Those screaming masks of theirs paralyzed the opponent for a turn which let them chop them up with ease.
Maybe something like that but not as cheese?

**Slayer222**

I already gave my opinion on how to fix most of the units earlier on, The only thing people can't agree on is how to reduce the wave serpent, while keeping/giving the eldar some ground to air AA. Farseers aren't that bad unless in a seers council. Tyranids though tear apart a council now adays so you might see a decrease in that unit. an easy fix would be to disallow any hq but a farseer from joining them. this would get ride of the 2++ re-rolable.

**Araenion**

People here seem to argue for arguments sake, and some of them don't really read what others post.

Eldar codex is the best codex in terms of themes, unit viability and unit diversity. It has one overpowered unit, a multitude of great units and a few flops.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, on both sides of the power scale.

CWE is a codex that every other codex wants to be and ought to be like.