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You sir are getting an exalt, i perfectly agree with you.

(just give me a bieltan supplement now to take aspect as troops in 2 slots and i will be perfect)
(and autarch acess to the gear of that aspect)

 Araenion wrote:
People here seem to argue for arguments sake, and some of them don't really read what others post.

Eldar codex is the best codex in terms of themes, unit viability and unit diversity. It has one overpowered unit, a multitude of great units and a few flops.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, on both sides of the power scale.

CWE is a codex that every other codex wants to be and ought to be like.

If the CWE Codex was fixed as you suggest then yes it its as they all should be - but its not as it is now for the very reasons you state.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, yep sounds good: likely one shot, 6-12" range

Giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles: yep sounds good

and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, also make it a DT option

Their we go, we are all starting to get along and agree after days of discussion we are reaching conclusions. Too bad gw doesn't care and all this work is for naught,

Really wish we had this diversity though. I wouldn't mind if all the codexies as they update got this treatment.(look at sm they can make most of their stuff troops by taking certain hq's)

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
People here seem to argue for arguments sake, and some of them don't really read what others post.

Eldar codex is the best codex in terms of themes, unit viability and unit diversity. It has one overpowered unit, a multitude of great units and a few flops.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, on both sides of the power scale.

CWE is a codex that every other codex wants to be and ought to be like.

If the CWE Codex was fixed as you suggest then yes it its as they all should be - but its not as it is now for the very reasons you state.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, yep sounds good: likely one shot, 6-12" range

Giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles: yep sounds good

and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, also make it a DT option

I'd make it one-shot at 18". And keep everything else in the profile. The reason is that the Serpent spam is a problem because you have an entire army(5-6 Serpents) standing at >48" and shooting their shields, while their Jink keeps them safe from most of the return fire. Throw in some Wraithknights for heavy AT duty and counter-charge and you've got a nasty list that only few can counter. If those shots were 18", then the Serpents would have to get really close to get that kind of firepower and once you're that close with a rear AV10 vehicle, that vehicle is as good as dead, so some extra firepower released as a burst of energy sounds very fluffy and more useful than people give it credit. That would fix Serpent spam monobuild real nice.

Only thing I don't know how to fix is that silly Hemlock Wraithfighter. Making the Heavy D-scythes Torrent and having a special rule that any squad within 18" of it loses Fearless and ATSKNF and must test morale at LD -2 as long as it's within that bubble. That might make it worth it's cost, though it's still incredibly frail with AV10 all-around.

It's got more than one overpowered unit, I'm afraid. Jetseer Councils need to be banned or severely nerfed.

why?
Please don't just say nerf actually explain.

Martel732 wrote:
It's got more than one overpowered unit, I'm afraid. Jetseer Councils need to be banned or severely nerfed.

That's more of a game mechanic problem than a unit problem. Allies and re-rollable 2+ saves are the culprit, not actually the council itself. But yes, I forgot about fixing them, as I said in my previous posts, just limit the number of warlocks per Farseer to 3 and there you have it, everything is fixed.

Because 2+ and 2++ rerollable saves make the game dumb.

There is a limit to 10 warlocks per primary detachment and they are needed (even though they suck) for a fluffy guardian list. Now the best save they can get is a 4++ save and a 4+ cover save for going flat out. It only becomes a monster when you ally in the barron to give them a 2++ save and the farseers have to roll fortune. 6 rolls on a 6 table but each only gets 3 which means their will be averaging not getting the fortune power which destroys the build. not only that but the fact that the warlocks are only ld 8 they will fail their powers often. And they cost as much if not more than terminators for a chance of a 2+ save that may be re-rolled. I have offered a solution of allies cannot join a unit of warlocks which would solve a large amount of the complaints and then if you still can't beat them its your own fault.

Except with the proper casting, they can have a 3+ Cover save that is re-rollable as well....not as bad as the 2+...but still not as bad as that 2++ of the Baron.

 Arthas367 wrote:
I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

Did you really just compare a Wave Serpent to a Vendetta, an annihilation barge and a Stormraven? We must be playing different games because last I checked, NONE of those vehicles were alike in any way shape or form.

The closest one, the AB, being a fast skimmer with good guns, has no transport capacity and doesn't reduce melta shots (which we pay a premium to bring) to glancing hits. And it has less shots for about the same price.

Don't even get me started on the Vendetta and the SR. They haven't been remotely close to anything like the WS since 5th edition.

The only thing that keeps the Vendetta in check is that it sucks vs Xeno troops. It's moderately efficient vs meqs because it is so cheap.

The Wave Serpent is too good against to many targets and can absorb too much firepower.

Just remove the Ignore Cover rule from the shields gun - fixed.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Just remove the Ignore Cover rule from the shields gun - fixed.

No, because the wound spam is still super strong.

Man, I almost hate to jump in on this, built...

Let's look at the role the Wave Serpent is supposed to fill and compare to another unit from Nither codex that folks hated when it was introduced...IG Melta Vets in Valkyries.

Basic Wave Serpent ( TL Scatter Lasers, Shurican Cannon plus holo field) with 5 dire avengers = 210 pts or there about

Valkyrie (multi laser, multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters) with Melta vets is 240 pts

Can the wave serpent deal more damage than the Valkyrie? probably. Can the Dire Avengers do more damage than the vets? Probably not. Is the Eldar unit better in every way to the IG one? I don't know, maybe.

Now if we talk spam, multiply the above by 6 and the Eldar is at 1260 and the IG is at 1440. However the main cost differential here is in the squads not the transports. Honestly that is a lot of points sunk into those units. I can see where generalist list would have trouble with this the threat that this type of off balanced list would pose

Looking at it another way, with IG we could take 9 Vendettas or Valkyries for the cost of the 6 Dire Avenger/Wave Serpent squads.

So, are the Eldar units better? probably. Over powered? Yup. Game breaking? Probably not.

I guess as a gaurd player who had to deal with all the whining and Vendetta hate, I kinda sympathize with Eldar players.

At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

Foolheart wrote:
Man, I almost hate to jump in on this, built...

Let's look at the role the Wave Serpent is supposed to fill and compare to another unit from Nither codex that folks hated when it was introduced...IG Melta Vets in Valkyries.

Basic Wave Serpent ( TL Scatter Lasers, Shurican Cannon plus holo field) with 5 dire avengers = 210 pts or there about

Valkyrie (multi laser, multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters) with Melta vets is 240 pts

Can the wave serpent deal more damage than the Valkyrie? probably. Can the Dire Avengers do more damage than the vets? Probably not. Is the Eldar unit better in every way to the IG one? I don't know, maybe.

Now if we talk spam, multiply the above by 6 and the Eldar is at 1260 and the IG is at 1440. However the main cost differential here is in the squads not the transports. Honestly that is a lot of points sunk into those units. I can see where generalist list would have trouble with this the threat that this type of off balanced list would pose

Looking at it another way, with IG we could take 9 Vendettas or Valkyries for the cost of the 6 Dire Avenger/Wave Serpent squads.

So, are the Eldar units better? probably. Over powered? Yup. Game breaking? Probably not.

I guess as a gaurd player who had to deal with all the whining and Vendetta hate, I kinda sympathize with Eldar players.

So one overpowered unit means there should be another - pretty crappy logic - also as noted the Wave Serpents start on the table

Here's an interesting idea. It seems to me that people are MOSTLY concerned with spamming Wave Serpents. Having a few on the table is good. It fills a niche that Eldar need. Spamming them like crazy, however, is unbalanced.

WHAT IF...

Wave Serpents weren't Dedicated Transports. What if they were a normal Troops Choice (non-scoring of course).

Thoughts?

@Mr. Morden,

Not "one overpowered unit deserves another", just a realization that almost every new codex has something insanely good. I suspect soon there will be something in the 'Nid 'dex that folks figure out that we will all be complaining about. And if not, maybe when Gaurd (or whatever they are going to call it now) rolls into town with a new 'dex in March there will be something in there that folks hate to play.

But there is history here (to name a few):
Vendetta
Riptides
Wave Serpents
...fill in the blanks...

We can go on and on complaining about OP units, doesn't really change the fact that GW is going to do this every release or two and it will force everyone to adapt.

To me I have more of an issue with the core rules, or BRB. I think they are sloppily written. I wish the folks at GW would get serious about creating an indexed simple to read rules set / meta. I think they need to understand that the game has grown beyound its beer and pretezel beginnings.

Any woo, just my two (lengthy) cents.

Where is the marine or tyranid OP unit?

TFC
Tyranids seem pretty well ballanced outside troops. Just a few termagaunt units and mc spam is sad and dull to play with or against.

Making serpents into non-DT does not work because it is the only DT in the army. There's no cheap back up. Also, placing a strong main battle tank in troop slot is a bit silly and would likely cause more problems than solve them since that means you dont get the avenger tax.

Giving banshees assault vehicle through acrobatics is also a bad idea - how will you support them? These are specialized anti-marine models, they underperform against teq and they underperform against geq. What purpose does the harlequins play? How will you combine banshees with scorpions?
Also this isn't a solution, only part solution, you still need to give them grenades. And lets face it, ever since they lost ap2 in melee they aren't all that hot and probably needs further point reduction. I havent run the math on them in sixth, but in fifth scorpions were only slightly worse than the banshees against sv3+ and since then they've gained initiative order powerfist but lost 1s on 1 attack each and lost out on model point discount.

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

Unless I am playing with my Sisters and getting 6+ Invulnerable what save do all the transports get against the Cheese shield - cover - nope? Anything else - nope. Oh and then everyone's walking - towards the Eldar Fort in the far corner with their cheese shields range 60"

I think serpents only become difficult to deal with when they are fielded in numbers of 4/5+ if I'm honest; I tend to find that after shooting the shield the Wave Serpent is rather east to take out (thanks in part to the large amounts of Ignore Cover weaponry out there and the general fragility of AV12).

I'd be wary of nerfing the Wave Serpent too hard, in case it creates an even more "spammy" environment for it than there is now. If you make it that 1 or 2 Wave Serpents can't really get the job done, it would only really encourage people to either take even more than they do now (in other words, discourage them from taking any less) and consequently, further polarise the Eldar meta-game in the direction of the Seer Council lists.

Again, the main problem, as I see it, is that Wave Serpents are only particularly crippling when fielded in large numbers so by nerfing them, it propagates an attitude of "take 7 or don't take any at all!".

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
I think serpents only become difficult to deal with when they are fielded in numbers of 4/5+ if I'm honest; I tend to find that after shooting the shield the Wave Serpent is rather east to take out (thanks in part to the large amounts of Ignore Cover weaponry out there and the general fragility of AV12).

I'd be wary of nerfing the Wave Serpent too hard, in case it creates an even more "spammy" environment for it than there is now. If you make it that 1 or 2 Wave Serpents can't really get the job done, it would only really encourage people to either take even more than they do now (in other words, discourage them from taking any less) and consequently, further polarise the Eldar meta-game in the direction of the Seer Council lists.

Again, the main problem, as I see it, is that Wave Serpents are only particularly crippling when fielded in large numbers so by nerfing them, it propagates an attitude of "take 7 or don't take any at all!".

Iranna.

This was basically what I was getting at by suggesting removing it from the DT slot. You've only got 6 slots to work with in Troops total, and you need something to take Objectives. So two squads of Avengers / Guardians and a squad of jetbikes... and now you've only got 3 slots left to use for Wave Serpents. Sure, you could still take 5 Serpents, but now you've only got one squad on the table that can take any objectives.

Murrdox wrote:


This was basically what I was getting at by suggesting removing it from the DT slot. You've only got 6 slots to work with in Troops total, and you need something to take Objectives. So two squads of Avengers / Guardians and a squad of jetbikes... and now you've only got 3 slots left to use for Wave Serpents. Sure, you could still take 5 Serpents, but now you've only got one squad on the table that can take any objectives.

I agree, messing with their FOC placement, or simply limiting the number a person can take would be the best option in my mind.

I feel it would be the least 'invasive' change suggested thusfar.

Iranna.

Murrdox, that's a terrible idea, unless implemented across ALL armies for ALL dedicated transports. It's the only dedicated transport, meaning that it's function plays a key role in making a very large amount of Eldar armies work. Stick them in just Troop section and watch Eldar viable army builds dwindle. Combined arms work just as poorly in this edition as it did in the previous one, so all it would accomplish is to make more variety in the type of grav tank you're facing

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

Unless I am playing with my Sisters and getting 6+ Invulnerable what save do all the transports get against the Cheese shield - cover - nope? Anything else - nope. Oh and then everyone's walking - towards the Eldar Fort in the far corner with their cheese shields range 60"

And how do you deal with Blood Angels or Parking Lots, which have large volume of fire, significantly better AP and higher strength based off of vehicles which are harder to glance? How do you deal with someone who's got a large volume of Devastators? If the alpha strike is what you have a problem with when it comes to Eldar, you're SOL when it comes to this game, 'cause it can be done in equal or better quality in just about any 6th edition army except for maybe Tyranids. What I can agree with is that it is hard to handle this volume of sustained fire coming from a large number of highly mobile platforms.

And of course Vendettas can't be nasty in the same way turn 1, but that's just because they aren't allowed on the table that turn. Which incidentally triggers a different kind of "fix" to the problem if Vendettas are fine due to this fact - just make all Eldar grav tanks Type: Flyer (Hover) - fluffy and removes turn 1 alpha strike. Not that it is a good fix, just saying...

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Just remove the Ignore Cover rule from the shields gun - fixed.

Surely, the ignore cover doesn't do an awful lot for the shield unless it shoots vehicles as it is ap - ?

Meaning everyone gets their armour saves against it, which are frequently better than the cover save unless you have stealth or shrouded and are not a marine.

Yes I am an eldar player, but in a 1500pt list I will only ever field 2-3 serpents maximum and each one has a 10man + squad in it unless they are fire dragons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:
Here's an interesting idea. It seems to me that people are MOSTLY concerned with spamming Wave Serpents. Having a few on the table is good. It fills a niche that Eldar need. Spamming them like crazy, however, is unbalanced.

WHAT IF...

Wave Serpents weren't Dedicated Transports. What if they were a normal Troops Choice (non-scoring of course).

Thoughts?

No, because then Eldar would have no dedicated transports options.

 Mahtamori wrote:
Murrdox, that's a terrible idea, unless implemented across ALL armies for ALL dedicated transports. It's the only dedicated transport, meaning that it's function plays a key role in making a very large amount of Eldar armies work. Stick them in just Troop section and watch Eldar viable army builds dwindle. Combined arms work just as poorly in this edition as it did in the previous one, so all it would accomplish is to make more variety in the type of grav tank you're facing

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

Unless I am playing with my Sisters and getting 6+ Invulnerable what save do all the transports get against the Cheese shield - cover - nope? Anything else - nope. Oh and then everyone's walking - towards the Eldar Fort in the far corner with their cheese shields range 60"

And how do you deal with Blood Angels or Parking Lots, which have large volume of fire, significantly better AP and higher strength based off of vehicles which are harder to glance? How do you deal with someone who's got a large volume of Devastators? If the alpha strike is what you have a problem with when it comes to Eldar, you're SOL when it comes to this game, 'cause it can be done in equal or better quality in just about any 6th edition army except for maybe Tyranids. What I can agree with is that it is hard to handle this volume of sustained fire coming from a large number of highly mobile platforms.

And of course Vendettas can't be nasty in the same way turn 1, but that's just because they aren't allowed on the table that turn. Which incidentally triggers a different kind of "fix" to the problem if Vendettas are fine due to this fact - just make all Eldar grav tanks Type: Flyer (Hover) - fluffy and removes turn 1 alpha strike. Not that it is a good fix, just saying...

The Eldar in my Codex get huge amounts of good AT weapons - it just the Wave Serpent gets everything in a huge smelly slice of cheese

Eldar need it as a DT option, just not with the artillery capabilities. Moving it to Troops means that you could do cheaper tank spam, but couldn't do any real mechanized infantry. So we'd keep the cheese, but lose the fluff. Worst of both worlds.