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I'm a relatively new player to 40k (about 4 months) and I'm starting to grow tired of the hobby due to the community and rule interpretation. I actually joined this forum so that I could get some concrete answers on some of the tactics I've fielded and was thinking about fielding.

However, over the past month when I've started to field more specialised tactics, the amount of times that I've had to make sure I had printed FAQ sheets, tabs in the BRB and codex entries memorised not just for Necrons, but Tau, GK, SM, ect.

I'll admit that sometimes I'll push the limits of what should be allowed by the rules, but I generally try to do a reasonable amount of FAQ, BRB and codex reading to insure it's legal before fielding it. I usually make an effort to inform my opponent of what my army is capable of before fielding it (giving them a huge advantage). but I've been starting to encounter more and more resistance to special tactics used in codexes where people start to disagree that x, y and z should work together because "that's too powerful" when all they have to do is break a single link in the chain to neutralise the tactic.

I chose necrons because of all the races they seemed to have the most tactical depth in combining special rules and boosting the power of other units by combining forces. I nearly chose tau before I realised that the majority of high end players just drop riptides in the corners and shoot them till they win.

But honestly, there's now only a handful of players that I enjoy playing against because we go back and forth of trying to outdo each other. But every now and again I'll play someone new and they'll just lose interest in the game as soon as they realise they'll have to work to win the game. Anyone else felt this way at times?

I enjoy playing new players. It means I can go fluff-heavy, and LOSE, and still enjoy the game because I helped bring someone else into the hobby and taught them some aspects of the game.

I'm also really lucky in that we don't have many WAAC players. I mean, we have several guys who are super competitive, but they'd rather play a game than just play against the other two or three guys who also have super tournament stompy lists so if you tell them in advance to bring a for funsies army the next week, they'll do it. We have maybe two TFG at most, and they've tapered off that behavior a bit because we're lucky enough to have enough players who are mostly new to the game rather than bitter old-timers who've been playing and collecting since they were 13, we can just sort of say, "Hey man, don't be that way." Strength in numbers.

I think I'd like to know what you mean by you push the rules before I totally weigh in.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I enjoy playing new players. It means I can go fluff-heavy, and LOSE, and still enjoy the game because I helped bring someone else into the hobby and taught them some aspects of the game.

I'm also really lucky in that we don't have many WAAC players. I mean, we have several guys who are super competitive, but they'd rather play a game than just play against the other two or three guys who also have super tournament stompy lists so if you tell them in advance to bring a for funsies army the next week, they'll do it. We have maybe two TFG at most, and they've tapered off that behavior a bit because we're lucky enough to have enough players who are mostly new to the game rather than bitter old-timers who've been playing and collecting since they were 13, we can just sort of say, "Hey man, don't be that way." Strength in numbers.

Ah, I should have clarified that by "new" i meant someone I haven't played before.

I field many kinds of lists and I don't mind play "for fun" lists against new players which I did today where I fielded a monlith and 2 guys who were new to the game who lacked heavy weapons were constantly trying different tactics to bring it down till eventually a tau player jumped a fire warrior squad off a 3 level building killing 30% of the squad, survived a portal of exile and then assaulted with EMP grenades killing it.

The only time I get tired is when I encounter a bitter vet who isn't competitive at all. Which you'd think was rare, but I'm starting to realise is more common than I realised. There does seem to be some stigma against necrons.

The most fun I had was when I fielded a 3000 point anti-riptide list against a tau player who was known for fielding 4 to 5 riptides in a single list, but it ended with him delcaring the necrons were OP and he wouldn't be playing them again while he was constantly checking the rules I was using.

If you want to know what I fielded it, was a Monolith / C'tan shard heavy list with Time's arrow coupled with a Dark Harvest allied detachment for Charnel Scarabs, Lychgard and Kutlakh the World Killer. In other words, a really nasty AV14 heavy list which tarpits and exploits Tau's low I and ws.

He expected cronair, but I only own a single nightscythe and doomscythe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:
I think I'd like to know what you mean by you push the rules before I totally weigh in.

By pushing the rules I mean the 2 rules I've asked questions about recently which is death raying your own lychguard to gain additional hits against a single target or repair barging a cryptek who has lost his squad so he can recover some warriors since he counts as being a warrior squad.

I love when someone declares your whole army is OP because he literally brought 1 type of unit and you exploited it's weaknesses. That cracks me up. "Man, you killed my totally OP units because I don't know how to strategy! You are playing a broken army!"

Laughs were had.

Meanwhile, every strategy my Dark Angels can employ, Tau gets to ignore. Want to bring Banner of Devastation? Too bad, we out-range you so it's actually a negative if you try to green-wing as you'll nerf your own range while slogging down the aisles. Want to bring a lot of ravenwing? Tau have the weapons to handle T5, and get to ignore cover so when they beat your AP, and just kill your really expensive models without breaking a sweat. Also ignores cover makes your new toy for this edition that gives all your guys stealth a waste of 80 points, and it makes all land speeders (which are normally a really solid unit) totally worthless. Want to deep strike in some terminators? Well, half of the Tau army gets interceptor and has AP2 with 8+ strength weapons so you end up losing 200+ points worth of guys on your own turn. Want to bring powerful melee combatants to "exploit" the low weapon skill and iniative of the Tau? Too bad, because Riptides are monstrous creatures and have a 2/3rds chance to gain a 3++ on a T6 W5 SV2+ creature, and so even at WS2 I2 it still inflicts more wounds and kill more dudes than lose wounds against any unit in the DA codex other than maybe Deathwing Knights.

THAT is why Tau are, in fact, a broken army. The joke in our store is they have an army-wide rule called "We ignore all your rules."

I look forward to the tears of Tau when Imperial players start feilding Knights

BrianDavion wrote:
I look forward to the tears of Tau when Imperial players start feilding Knights

And when the Knights beat the Tau, they have to give this speech after every game:




But yeah back to topic, I agree to a certain extent I just played in a tourney and had a Necron player moaning at me for taking 2 Helldrakes and a Vendetta, calling it a "Netlist"...

He proceeded to take first place..

*awaiting my box of soap from said opponent in the form of a quote *

So yeah I can understand the bitter-side of things and how that can get annoying at times, but on the flip side of the coin, why should people feel penalised for taking some units that they may like instead of unit X, Y and Z, that's what I do not like competitive 40k as its too much of you "have" to adapt, which I would be a fan of but the way GW goes about it is poor tbh, they could give said units that were powerful a different role for their army instead of straight out nerfing them that would be a fun and refreshing change of adaption, but GW's attempts is basically buy Model X, Y and Z and sod everything else, which bothers me a great deal as we have what the current meta is now (Tau-dar) imo..

I tend to see Tournament and Normal games as two different kinds of animal, where I do NOT expect to see tournament style cut-throat builds in Normal games.

How does targeting lychguard grant you extra hits on a single target with the death ray?

 happygolucky wrote:
but GW's attempts is basically buy Model X, Y and Z and sod everything else, which bothers me a great deal as we have what the current meta is now (Tau-dar) imo..

That movie was awesome.

Anyway, I have to agree with you. It's funny how if you remove the singular power unit everyone complains about from a codex, the games tend to be quite enjoyable for both parties involved. Tau are still quite good without riptides, but aren't any longer fielding an unkillable monster that's criminally undercosted. Eldar can still be really good without spending 800+ points on a cheesy HQ deathstar, AND can still be really good without utilizing more than 2 wave serpents, or at least without abusing serpent shield's currently broken firing mode. Tossing out Banshees and Harlequins, they don't have a bad unit in the codex, really, just things you might need a little finesse to utilize which is what Eldar are supposed to be all about.

Anyone who brings that many riptides is definitely that guy.

I feel like need to point out that TFG does not involve whether you prefer competitive gameplay of casual, merely that you're an ***hole of the highest degree, which is a problem that plague both sides.

Dear OP, you should note that not all players want to play competitive games. Many people just want to play casual fluffy games. Bringing a competitive list to a fluff game is not fun and makes you TFG.
Before the game, you should discuss with your opponent about what kind of game you want play. Bring your most tactical optimised lists to competitve games and your themed fluff lists to fluff games.
That will avoid a lot of arguments and increase fun for all players involved.

On a side note: If enjoy playing armies that are really tactical, you should definitely try out the Dark Eldar.

I might as well share my own experience.

I'm the only nid player at my local game club and general opinion around here is that nidz ( both 5th edition and 6th edition) are overpowered and ridiculous!

There are few people I really enjoy playing as we both try to win and our games are really close ( he runs Eldar/DE against my nidz) and we both have a lot of fun trying to outplay each other.

However, often ( not always ) there is little fun playing against who is simply not trying to win. For example I ran fun list against CSM player. It had only 1 synapse creature at 1250 points and only 2 units of gaunts. Oh, and by the way, it was crusade mission with 5 objectives. Game ended in me winning 9 - 3

Lastly, im not saying that I do not enjoy playing against ALL fluffy gamers, I just don't like playing game where there is no challenge. There is no fun in tabling opponent in turn 3.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I tend to see Tournament and Normal games as two different kinds of animal, where I do NOT expect to see tournament style cut-throat builds in Normal games.

This. If you're bringing aforementioned cut-throat tourney lists to a Saturday afternoon pick-up game, or are running triptide/6 serpents at the local club against a bunch of laid back fluff enthusiasts, you are probably tfg. Sorry, but its true. Especially if people have spoken to you about it before.

SRSFACE, bravo on that Tau assessment. My experiences have mirrored your own.

sonicaucie wrote:...and they'll just lose interest in the game as soon as they realise they'll have to work to win the game.

That you think that this is the reason people don't like to play games against you is rather telling.

 Ailaros wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:...and they'll just lose interest in the game as soon as they realise they'll have to work to win the game.

That you think that this is the reason people don't like to play games against you is rather telling.

Well said. I also did not get what the OP wanted to say.

Finding loopholes from badly written rules is okay, but complaining about that makes you a TFG?

 SRSFACE wrote:
I enjoy playing new players. It means I can go fluff-heavy, and LOSE, and still enjoy the game because I helped bring someone else into the hobby and taught them some aspects of the game.

I'm also really lucky in that we don't have many WAAC players. I mean, we have several guys who are super competitive, but they'd rather play a game than just play against the other two or three guys who also have super tournament stompy lists so if you tell them in advance to bring a for funsies army the next week, they'll do it. We have maybe two TFG at most, and they've tapered off that behavior a bit because we're lucky enough to have enough players who are mostly new to the game rather than bitter old-timers who've been playing and collecting since they were 13, we can just sort of say, "Hey man, don't be that way." Strength in numbers.

The trick is to take a for-funsies stompy list.

Try 8 BCOK with 7 heralds + karanak and 32 blood letters - it's 'fluffy' because 8's and it's funsies because any flyer whatsoever shuts you down.

Naw wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:...and they'll just lose interest in the game as soon as they realise they'll have to work to win the game.

That you think that this is the reason people don't like to play games against you is rather telling.

Well said. I also did not get what the OP wanted to say.

Finding loopholes from badly written rules is okay, but complaining about that makes you a TFG?

I think the difference is that I don't believe I'm finding loop holes, but strategies that were intended from the get go.

The difference is, that while most of the guys I play regularly and enjoy playing with will constantly try to outplay my army. I've encountered 2 competitive tau players recently who simply refuse to play me anymore because "Necrons are OP". So, if you say my comment is rather telling. I think they've said their reasons blatantly.

BaalSNAFU wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I tend to see Tournament and Normal games as two different kinds of animal, where I do NOT expect to see tournament style cut-throat builds in Normal games.

This. If you're bringing aforementioned cut-throat tourney lists to a Saturday afternoon pick-up game, or are running triptide/6 serpents at the local club against a bunch of laid back fluff enthusiasts, you are probably tfg. Sorry, but its true. Especially if people have spoken to you about it before.

SRSFACE, bravo on that Tau assessment. My experiences have mirrored your own.

More likely you're TFG in this case. In my area MEQ armies have always been really rare, and during most part of fifth, all those necron, tau, eldar and daemon armies were evenly matched. The one eldar player has always fielded an armies full of serpents, night spinners, falcons and fire prisms, because that's what his craftworld's tactics is. No eldar of his gets to go on the battlefield without a transport. A new codex dropped and his default list came totally overpowered.

Another guy has been playing tau for ever, and we got him two riptides for his birthday. Totally must be TFG for fielding them.

Yet another player had build a tzeench list way before it was useful at all. He even had a pair of heralds leading screamers, just because both are jetbikes. New codex, and - boom - screamer star.

TFG is a person who is making your unfun to play, because of unnecessary rules arguing, being a sore loser and/or winner, bad sportsmanship, or whatever negative traits you're opponent could have.

If you're whining because your opponent brought a better list than you, while you consciously made the decision of bring a less than optimal list (i.e. "fluffy" list), then you're TFG.
Tell the person you don't want to play against competitive lists and don't play the game. If he doesn't have a less competitive list as well, you are not the right opponents for each other, and neither of you would gain anything for the game.

I do bring "cut-throat" lists to pick-up games, because I am looking for opponents who do the same.

It has been said, if you're not worried about being TFG, you are TFG.

Now being TFG has nothing to do with strategies. It has to do with being the guy to bring a cheese& spam meta breaking lists to friendly games, being a dick toward the other players in game, cheating to win etc.

However if both players were behaving in a civil fashion, and there were a half dozen CTans on one side and 5 riptides on the other... Don't know where I was going with that, but this doesnt seem like a case of TFG to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I tend to see Tournament and Normal games as two different kinds of animal, where I do NOT expect to see tournament style cut-throat builds in Normal games.

This. If you're bringing aforementioned cut-throat tourney lists to a Saturday afternoon pick-up game, or are running triptide/6 serpents at the local club against a bunch of laid back fluff enthusiasts, you are probably tfg. Sorry, but its true. Especially if people have spoken to you about it before.

SRSFACE, bravo on that Tau assessment. My experiences have mirrored your own.

More likely you're TFG in this case. In my area MEQ armies have always been really rare, and during most part of fifth, all those necron, tau, eldar and daemon armies were evenly matched. The one eldar player has always fielded an armies full of serpents, night spinners, falcons and fire prisms, because that's what his craftworld's tactics is. No eldar of his gets to go on the battlefield without a transport. A new codex dropped and his default list came totally overpowered.

Another guy has been playing tau for ever, and we got him two riptides for his birthday. Totally must be TFG for fielding them.

Yet another player had build a tzeench list way before it was useful at all. He even had a pair of heralds leading screamers, just because both are jetbikes. New codex, and - boom - screamer star.

TFG is a person who is making your unfun to play, because of unnecessary rules arguing, being a sore loser and/or winner, bad sportsmanship, or whatever negative traits you're opponent could have.

If you're whining because your opponent brought a better list than you, while you consciously made the decision of bring a less than optimal list (i.e. "fluffy" list), then you're TFG.
Tell the person you don't want to play against competitive lists and don't play the game. If he doesn't have a less competitive list as well, you are not the right opponents for each other, and neither of you would gain anything for the game.

I do bring "cut-throat" lists to pick-up games, because I am looking for opponents who do the same.

So I'm TFG because I'm not fond of Tau and I don't try to curb stomp my opponent by turn two in casual games? That seems bizarre. Ones an opinion, the other is actually a COURTESY toward other players. Could it be that you're a thin skinned powergamer, and I struck a nerve? No offense, but the latter makes more sense because you derailed this thread to call me TFG because I don't agree with your playstyle.

TFG is honestly more about sportsmanship than anything else. Communicate with your opponent before a game on how munchkiny you're planning on being, be polite and courteous during the game, give the other guy the benefit of the doubt when a dispute/ambiguity comes up, and don't be a sore winner, and it honestly doesn't matter if you built a cheesy list. A guy who kicks my ass with a Jetseers list using the Riptide/Broadsides formation as allies and looks me in the eye, shakes my hand, and treats the game with dignity isn't TFG, someone who does the same and then gloats about how it makes him a better player is.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
So I'm TFG because I'm not fond of Tau and I don't try to curb stomp my opponent by turn two in casual games? That seems bizarre. Ones an opinion, the other is actually a COURTESY toward other players. Could it be that you're a thin skinned powergamer, and I struck a nerve? No offense, but the latter makes more sense because you derailed this thread to call me TFG because I don't agree with your playstyle.

That's not what he said, though.

Playing hardcore lists against other hardcore lists is fun for some people. Just as playing casual lists against other casual lists is fun for others. And just as bringing a crap list against a hardcore list can be fun for someone (just to see how long you can survive).

There is an unfortunate sentiment often being thrown around about how playing to win in a game with set parameters for winning is a bad thing. It becomes even worse when it's coupled with the sense of entitlement that a lot of players seem to have. They want to bring crap lists (for whatever reason), they don't want to practice their tactics, and they still want to have a close game. And the responsibility to change is always on the guy with the good list that he knows how to play.

They key to enjoying 40k is not a mystery. Play against like-minded people if you don't want to change anything. Communicate with the guys you're playing with. Give what you expect to get.

I'm in a 40k club with guys of varying skill levels and with varying power levels in their armies. Now, I've been playing 40k for about 15 years, so I have no problem with bringing a silly army to even the odds, but the implicit demand that some people put forward that I should go out and buy a new army just because they insist on using Pyrovores and suck at tactics is just dumb. Of course, on the flipside, insisting that people should just shut up and take the beating from your hobby-killer list is just as dumb.


And @OP: When you push dodgy rules interpretations that just happen to heavily favour you, aren't played like that by anyone else, and require a hefty dose of creative reading, then you're the dick. Then again, when you play Tau with multiple Riptides and get creamed by Necrons you're a dick if you start whining about Necrons being OP. But then again, again, tailoring your list to crush one guy when you know what he's bringing but he does not know what you're bringing is generally seen as behaviour on a spectrum ranging from 'dick move' to 'downright cheating.'

Just grow some social skills. Talk to the guys you play with. How are rules disputes generally solved? Is list tailoring accepted? Is it a casual or competitive environment?

I never even post in this sub-forum, I just appeared to say you are very clearly that guy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
TFG is honestly more about sportsmanship than anything else. Communicate with your opponent before a game on how munchkiny you're planning on being, be polite and courteous during the game, give the other guy the benefit of the doubt when a dispute/ambiguity comes up, and don't be a sore winner, and it honestly doesn't matter if you built a cheesy list. A guy who kicks my ass with a Jetseers list using the Riptide/Broadsides formation as allies and looks me in the eye, shakes my hand, and treats the game with dignity isn't TFG, someone who does the same and then gloats about how it makes him a better player is.

Fair enough. Makes sense. I suppose my idea of TFG is a bit cloudy/biased because I've never played a game against an opponent running a netlist who wasn't the type to talk gak turns 1-6 and thumb the nose afterwards. The list/cheating is probably more indicative of WAAC. Sportsmanship and the civility by which a game is played is indeed what defines TFG(if neither trait is possesed). However it could be argued that the Eldar player who takes 6 serpents and 3 WK specifically for the purpose of crushing the new ork player falls under this category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thud wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
So I'm TFG because I'm not fond of Tau and I don't try to curb stomp my opponent by turn two in casual games? That seems bizarre. Ones an opinion, the other is actually a COURTESY toward other players. Could it be that you're a thin skinned powergamer, and I struck a nerve? No offense, but the latter makes more sense because you derailed this thread to call me TFG because I don't agree with your playstyle.

That's not what he said, though.

Playing hardcore lists against other hardcore lists is fun for some people. Just as playing casual lists against other casual lists is fun for others. And just as bringing a crap list against a hardcore list can be fun for someone (just to see how long you can survive).

There is an unfortunate sentiment often being thrown around about how playing to win in a game with set parameters for winning is a bad thing. It becomes even worse when it's coupled with the sense of entitlement that a lot of players seem to have. They want to bring crap lists (for whatever reason), they don't want to practice their tactics, and they still want to have a close game. And the responsibility to change is always on the guy with the good list that he knows how to play.

They key to enjoying 40k is not a mystery. Play against like-minded people if you don't want to change anything. Communicate with the guys you're playing with. Give what you expect to get.

I'm in a 40k club with guys of varying skill levels and with varying power levels in their armies. Now, I've been playing 40k for about 15 years, so I have no problem with bringing a silly army to even the odds, but the implicit demand that some people put forward that I should go out and buy a new army just because they insist on using Pyrovores and suck at tactics is just dumb. Of course, on the flipside, insisting that people should just shut up and take the beating from your hobby-killer list is just as dumb.

Just grow some social skills. Talk to the guys you play with. How are rules disputes generally solved? Is list tailoring accepted? Is it a casual or competitive environment?

Exactly. I didn't agree with his competitive play style, he got booty hurt by my interpretation of TFG (remember people, we are arguing internet.semantics here) called me TFG etc..

I wholeheartedly agree that communication is essential. Find people who.enjoy the same kind.of game as you. I never said implied that there is anything wrong with competitive play. I think that is where some of the misinterpretations are coming from. Personally, I'd imagine that 8 or 9 times out of 10, if two people are at a LGS looking for 40k games and one of them whips out screemerstar or Quintuple-tide, the other guy isn't exactly going to be thrilled.

 Jidmah wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I tend to see Tournament and Normal games as two different kinds of animal, where I do NOT expect to see tournament style cut-throat builds in Normal games.

This. If you're bringing aforementioned cut-throat tourney lists to a Saturday afternoon pick-up game, or are running triptide/6 serpents at the local club against a bunch of laid back fluff enthusiasts, you are probably tfg. Sorry, but its true. Especially if people have spoken to you about it before.

SRSFACE, bravo on that Tau assessment. My experiences have mirrored your own.

More likely you're TFG in this case. In my area MEQ armies have always been really rare, and during most part of fifth, all those necron, tau, eldar and daemon armies were evenly matched. The one eldar player has always fielded an armies full of serpents, night spinners, falcons and fire prisms, because that's what his craftworld's tactics is. No eldar of his gets to go on the battlefield without a transport. A new codex dropped and his default list came totally overpowered.

Another guy has been playing tau for ever, and we got him two riptides for his birthday. Totally must be TFG for fielding them.

Yet another player had build a tzeench list way before it was useful at all. He even had a pair of heralds leading screamers, just because both are jetbikes. New codex, and - boom - screamer star.

TFG is a person who is making your unfun to play, because of unnecessary rules arguing, being a sore loser and/or winner, bad sportsmanship, or whatever negative traits you're opponent could have.

If you're whining because your opponent brought a better list than you, while you consciously made the decision of bring a less than optimal list (i.e. "fluffy" list), then you're TFG.
Tell the person you don't want to play against competitive lists and don't play the game. If he doesn't have a less competitive list as well, you are not the right opponents for each other, and neither of you would gain anything for the game.

I do bring "cut-throat" lists to pick-up games, because I am looking for opponents who do the same.

He's just the opposite; a reasonable player. And a reasonable player shouldn't expect to face tourney, FOTM lists in friendly games no matter the circumstances. If you're squaring off against other, similar deathunit lists them sure you're fine. But if you go after the kid with foot slogging conscript-heavy IG, then you're the definition of TFG. It would be worse if you berating such players for not playing you, further solidifying your TFG status, but let's hope you're not that kind of person. One can only be so much TFG.

Thud wrote:

There is an unfortunate sentiment often being thrown around about how playing to win in a game with set parameters for winning is a bad thing. It becomes even worse when it's coupled with the sense of entitlement that a lot of players seem to have. They want to bring crap lists (for whatever reason), they don't want to practice their tactics, and they still want to have a close game. And the responsibility to change is always on the guy with the good list that he knows how to play.

It happens on both sides. People bring "Poor" lists and complain. People bring competitive lists and look for people they can smash. The responsibility is on both sides to be honest and chose appropriate opponents. There is also a responsibility on experienced players to not abuse less experienced players, because this isn't just about fluffy lists, but also about people bringing power lists to play against players who are not very experienced or don't have a large collection of minis to keep up with the latest meta. It's no fun feeling like you made your best list and played your best only to feel like you never had a chance.

Thud wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
So I'm TFG because I'm not fond of Tau and I don't try to curb stomp my opponent by turn two in casual games? That seems bizarre. Ones an opinion, the other is actually a COURTESY toward other players. Could it be that you're a thin skinned powergamer, and I struck a nerve? No offense, but the latter makes more sense because you derailed this thread to call me TFG because I don't agree with your playstyle.

That's not what he said, though.

Playing hardcore lists against other hardcore lists is fun for some people. Just as playing casual lists against other casual lists is fun for others. And just as bringing a crap list against a hardcore list can be fun for someone (just to see how long you can survive).

There is an unfortunate sentiment often being thrown around about how playing to win in a game with set parameters for winning is a bad thing. It becomes even worse when it's coupled with the sense of entitlement that a lot of players seem to have. They want to bring crap lists (for whatever reason), they don't want to practice their tactics, and they still want to have a close game. And the responsibility to change is always on the guy with the good list that he knows how to play.

They key to enjoying 40k is not a mystery. Play against like-minded people if you don't want to change anything. Communicate with the guys you're playing with. Give what you expect to get.

I'm in a 40k club with guys of varying skill levels and with varying power levels in their armies. Now, I've been playing 40k for about 15 years, so I have no problem with bringing a silly army to even the odds, but the implicit demand that some people put forward that I should go out and buy a new army just because they insist on using Pyrovores and suck at tactics is just dumb. Of course, on the flipside, insisting that people should just shut up and take the beating from your hobby-killer list is just as dumb.


And @OP: When you push dodgy rules interpretations that just happen to heavily favour you, aren't played like that by anyone else, and require a hefty dose of creative reading, then you're the dick. Then again, when you play Tau with multiple Riptides and get creamed by Necrons you're a dick if you start whining about Necrons being OP. But then again, again, tailoring your list to crush one guy when you know what he's bringing but he does not know what you're bringing is generally seen as behaviour on a spectrum ranging from 'dick move' to 'downright cheating.'

Just grow some social skills. Talk to the guys you play with. How are rules disputes generally solved? Is list tailoring accepted? Is it a casual or competitive environment?

Depends what you class as list tailoring. I doubt anyone can fault me for trying to come up with a list that kills riptides when you're going against a player who fields 4 or 5 at least.

As for dodgy rule interpretation, I believe it goes both ways. I've encountered players who have said "That's an interesting list/move" and shook hands after the game, but there are others who stop the game for 20 minutes while they run to the computer to try find an FAQ or a staff member to try and get him to rule against me.

That happened 2 days ago when I death rayed my own lychguard. It allows you to get more hits against a single target because they can reflect hits to an enemy 6" away on a 4+. I asked about its legality on this forum and the concensus was that it was legal, but more often than not I've had someone say "let's throw a dice and see who's right" when I'm showing him the rules from the codex and BRB which don't rule against it. This is not a "for fun" game although we are having fun, but a game where both players are running competitive lists.

Overall, I've made some mistakes since I started the hobby and regularly admit when I've been wrong, but I've also had some cheating done to me before.

The last time I played the tau player, before I came up with the anti-riptide list, I was like 2 months into the hobby whereas he had been playing for years. But he'd fire all his ion accelerators overcharged in one go during interceptor and then fire again in the shooting phase but I didn't have the knowledge to call him out on it back then.

By "one go" I mean, he fired an ion accelerator, saw if it scattered, then fired the next one before rolling for any results.

This means that if say half the squad died after the first one you're getting double the hits on the second, 4 times the hits on the third, 8 times the hits on the fourth, ect...

He made the same mistake again during our last battle, to which I said that if he fires the second accelerator before rolling for the result he'll lose the chance to roll for his SMS and lose the shot from the first one. He naturally disagreed, but eventually conceded that I was correct after calling a staff member over after I read him the rules on interceptor and the shooting sequence.

This was a rant thread because I like to play the game for fun and competitively, but more and more I've been growing tired of having to have a rule debate every time I have a session with someone I haven't played before. The staff are getting tired of it and asked me to start printing out the FAQs and keeping a note of the rules which I was doing as a courtesy to my opponent anyway. And, in a way, I've became TFG in the shop when I know that I probably understand the tau codex more than the two competitive tau players who now refuse to play me.

Thud wrote:

Playing hardcore lists against other hardcore lists is fun for some people. Just as playing casual lists against other casual lists is fun for others. And just as bringing a crap list against a hardcore list can be fun for someone (just to see how long you can survive).

Quoted for truth.

Like I said in our local game store we've got a number of really competitive guys with super nasty lists who'll take a fun/fluffy list if you ask, but additionally I think it's important to not abuse the good nature of guys like that and engage them on the level they want to play at occasionally, too. Being friends is all about a give and take, you know? The guy who's won our two last 1850 tournaments has a really nasty Chaos Space Marines army that I really can't handle all that well, but I told him one day to "bring a list I couldn't beat." I actually did surprisingly well because he wasn't able to table me even if he did win like 5-2. We had a lot of fun.

In a weird way it felt very 40k. Facing unwinnable odds and doing your best in the face of certain doom? Check.

Anyway, I also wanted to say that I think we've all been TFG. I admit I've got a bit of a temper and have a bad habit of calling people out and not backing down which ends up being a really dumb thing to do most the time. I kind of got into it with a guy back in December I think it was, and when the 40k group met the week after I pulled him aside and apologized for my own boorishness. We're actually a lot better friends for it, go figure. I haven't actually played a game of 40k in 2014 yet because instead of bringing my armies on our weekly game night, I bring my paint table instead and just work on stuff and chat with people. Sometimes taking a step back, even if it's a really long extended step back, goes a long way toward curbing your own TFG behavior and sometimes it helps curb the TFG-ishness of other people down at the shop.

If your having to have a debate on rules in every game, to the point where staff are getting involved, you might want to question where the problem is... If allot of people are questioning something then, even if legal, it is probably not appropriate for pick up games.

Also, on a side note, you shouldn't be printing out rules and FAQs as a courtesy to your opponent, but as a matter of course. Every player should always have all the rules they need, including up to date FAQs, especially when playing pick up games.