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So now that many of you have the 7th edition 40k rulebook.

I have heard the new psychic phase will be a huge part of the game.

So with that in mind, lets talk about early predictions for daemons of chaos under the new rules, how do you think they will do?.

Can anyone spread some light on how this will effect daemons of chaos, and why many of you are saying they will now be considered top tier, op, or broken?.

Cheers

This is something I came up with :
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596108.page

I don't think Daemons are broken but they certainly shot to the top of the charts on force multipliers, being able to summon more stuff your opponent has to kill and overwhelming have more dice in the Psychic phase to do it will most certainly give many armies a run for it.

It's powerful and you are going to see a lot of it in upcoming tournaments but it's not "broken".

Not broken.

They've gained in some areas (Horrors are even better now, with Daemon Focus the get FFOT plus something else, increasing their utility, and can run after firing off a power, hiding out of the way again) and lost in others (FMC are less strong, but still useful)

Summoning has too many points of failure to be a consistent strategy, IMO, but is a nice arrow to have in the quiver.

I'm getting real sick of all these "Sooper dooper broken awful 7th ed" crap. In all the 7th ed threads I've seen only 1 has been positive. I'm looking into this edition as better than the last.

I actually really like 7th , the only thing I was unhappy about was that they didn't redo the Psychic PHase further. That and well the price tag.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
I'm getting real sick of all these "Sooper dooper broken awful 7th ed" crap. In all the 7th ed threads I've seen only 1 has been positive. I'm looking into this edition as better than the last.

Srry bro, most will agree that aint saying much.

Well 3 units of 20 pink horrors generate 9 dice. 3 lvl 3 heralds make 9 more. One lvl 3 dp makes 3 more. So 21 +d6 warp dice for demons versus maybe 10? With that many dice you make 3 new units of pink horrors adding 3 more dice to the pool. Next turn make 4 more units adding 4 more dice to the pool. Seems good to me.

This is why, every game I will ask "Can we not do unbound and Not use deamonology, it makes the game less entertaining and takes more time"

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
I'm getting real sick of all these "Sooper dooper broken awful 7th ed" crap. In all the 7th ed threads I've seen only 1 has been positive.

Play a better game then.

Also noted as I looked through the book again vector strike counts as using one weapon which is a pretty big nerf to FMCs (though not heldrakes oddly).

Also, not getting where people are having their horrors can use any power other than flickering fire which they are assigned.

Yes, Malefic Daemonolgy makes 40k unplayable as a competitive game without severe restrictions.

The Psychic Phase almost went into the Good, but for one, huge, glaring problem. As of now, there is no limit on Warp Charge. You can quite easily build an army that has 30+ warp charge. We did it last night and made a Daemon summoning spam list and it was ludicrous. The Daemon plyaer had 38 warp charge and by turn 2, had brought in over 1,000pts of new units onto the table and the Space Marine player never got a single power off nor denied a single power as they had 3 Warp Charge in their pool to work with. It was comical. The game took almost 6 hours to play and by the end of it, the Daemon player’s army had gone over 4,000pts. The Psychic phase seemed like it was intended to stop the abuses of 6th, but in some ways it exacerbated them. Without a limit on Warp Charge, psychic heavy armies will have an incredible advantage.

The Malefic powers are also suspect. We need to play-test them more, but so far, they are just way over the top. In one game we saw summoned onto the field like, 150 Daemonettes, a Bloodthirster, 9 Screamers, etc. It is just a bit much. One player ends up with the equivalent of 2 or even 3 armies against the other player’s one. And a Space Marine librarian summing Deamons? Or turning into one by choice??? Come on, that just flies in the face of the fluff. We’ll see how it goes, and again, limiting Warp Charge cuts down on this a bit, but as it stands this school of powers is an obvious cash grab to get people to buy Daemons and throws the game balance out the window. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf

I just love my Daemonically Posessed Vehicles now. Ignoring 2/3rds of the Damage Chart, and an Invul Save for the rest.

Even the ForgeFiend is getting some love. But a Souldgrinder is looking nasty.

to me, theyre more random than before.

In addition to the usual randomness of their codex, now using their powers that they randomly chose, are random in themself. Yes, you can get 20+ warp charges easily with most daemon lists if not all of them, but if you try to use that many warps you are bound to suffer multiple perils. The question is, were the spells worth the risk? i am not afraid of people who try to generate as much warp as they can so they can spam spells, that perils is REALLY common compared to before and much more nasty.

Also the Vectored strike thing wouldnt bother a helldrake anyway. Fliers can use 4 weapons, helldrake only has 1 anyway but is still allowed to fire 4. It got a buff because of templates, though. Curious if the new vector attack numbers and ap affect the helldrake though, since it has a unique vector strike not the USR one.

Ooo and totally anti-fluff rule loophole alert! Come the Apoc allies are actually able to ally now....GK can legally be fielded in the same army as Daemons now. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS HERESY!?!??

The Meteoric Descent rule for the Heldrake only states it is used while zooming and at Str 7. So it gets the new Vector Strike rule from the book.

Ah, gotcha. Well, THAT SUCKS FOR ME! lol. Least its still S7 and wont paste my suits or nobz...thank god lol

 buddha wrote:
Also noted as I looked through the book again vector strike counts as using one weapon which is a pretty big nerf to FMCs (though not heldrakes oddly).

That's how it was in 6th too.

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic
powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always
start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random
psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

So depends if Pinkys have a power already listed

dadakkaest wrote:
Yes, Malefic Daemonolgy makes 40k unplayable as a competitive game without severe restrictions.

The Psychic Phase almost went into the Good, but for one, huge, glaring problem. As of now, there is no limit on Warp Charge. You can quite easily build an army that has 30+ warp charge. We did it last night and made a Daemon summoning spam list and it was ludicrous. The Daemon plyaer had 38 warp charge and by turn 2, had brought in over 1,000pts of new units onto the table and the Space Marine player never got a single power off nor denied a single power as they had 3 Warp Charge in their pool to work with. It was comical. The game took almost 6 hours to play and by the end of it, the Daemon player’s army had gone over 4,000pts. The Psychic phase seemed like it was intended to stop the abuses of 6th, but in some ways it exacerbated them. Without a limit on Warp Charge, psychic heavy armies will have an incredible advantage.

The Malefic powers are also suspect. We need to play-test them more, but so far, they are just way over the top. In one game we saw summoned onto the field like, 150 Daemonettes, a Bloodthirster, 9 Screamers, etc. It is just a bit much. One player ends up with the equivalent of 2 or even 3 armies against the other player’s one. And a Space Marine librarian summing Deamons? Or turning into one by choice??? Come on, that just flies in the face of the fluff. We’ll see how it goes, and again, limiting Warp Charge cuts down on this a bit, but as it stands this school of powers is an obvious cash grab to get people to buy Daemons and throws the game balance out the window. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf

And I hope that if anyone is gakky enough to actively play a summon spam army that they can actually pull out those additional models.

I highly doubt most people are going to carry an extra case or two just to spam an extra 1k - 2k+ worth of Daemons. I know I already have enough to cart around between my 1 case for my basic army, plus the relevant books & other gear I need.

And if some donkey-cave tries to simply proxy, well they can GTFO!

I have already played a game with Daemons. They have been buffed so incredibly hard.

Daemons broken?

Wait, so business as usual since the white dwarf update took them from annoying to stupid?

Experiment 626 wrote:

And I hope that if anyone is gakky enough to actively play a summon spam army that they can actually pull out those additional models.

the people that want to win, will. Which means that serious tournament players will be assembly line painting daemons from today on.

The people that don't want to win. Won't. Period.

This is not a litmus test. People have been painting hundreds of orks for decades for their army concept, and it was never, ever as strong as this. It will happen.

Steel Angel wrote:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic
powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always
start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random
psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

So depends if Pinkys have a power already listed

They don't. They generate their powers from the Change discipline (and now also Malefic).

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Ooo and totally anti-fluff rule loophole alert! Come the Apoc allies are actually able to ally now....GK can legally be fielded in the same army as Daemons now. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS HERESY!?!??

Yes, if you run GK as GK and daemons as daemons it will get silly, but now I can run GK as expanded 1k sons, and have daemons around too. they don't get alonenot quite as well as I'd want, but hi-tzench is an donkey-cave.




As for the "are they broken" question, it really depends on one yet unanswered question-WHO in the daemon codex will get demonology, and who will be barred from it.
If the only demonologists are the big dudes, and horros/heralds will be barred (what I think will happen), then crisis is averted and the summoning engines will be FAR less efficient then the "see this cheese" test runs we have around show, if the heralds CAN use it, well-all hell broke loose, quite literally.


Also, if we want to go by RAW, then until FAQs arrive EVERYONE is barred from demonology, as I don't know any psyker without a list of allowed diceplens, and that counts as the "otherwise stated" that prevents access to it.

I'm in the "daemonology is broken" camp.
I knew it was coming even before we saw the powers, and even made a wild speculation thread with mine being that daemons would jump to the top.

Even without summoning, yet another stacking invuln power is silly as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, I really want to watch a few summon horde vs summon horde batreps. Granted they might take 7483648 hours per game...

Cursed Earth can only stack with OTHER modifiers, it doesn't override 'multiples of the same power don't stack'

niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm in the "daemonology is broken" camp.
I knew it was coming even before we saw the powers, and even made a wild speculation thread with mine being that daemons would jump to the top.

Even without summoning, yet another stacking invuln power is silly as well.

Since when are 3++ saves broken?!
Not to mention that you require both a Divination caster w/Forewarning AND a Malefic caster with Cursed Earth to get that 3++. Good luck getting both those powers on the same model btw...

Yes the 2++ re-rolled save is stupid, but only TFG's will pull it out, as most respectable TO's have comped it.
But right now everyone is crying "OMG! FRENRISIAN WOLF!11!!!!1!" and acting like Daemons are now getting 600+ pts of extra models & automatic 2++ saves to boot every single turn without fail.

And let's not forget the biggest fact in all of this; you now have a better than 0% chance of actively stopping at least one or two of those powers from successfully going off, which is far greater than the strait-up 0% you had of stopping it in 6th edition!

People are overlooking the fact that Daemon offensive output has taken a bit of a hit. Pinkies will rarely fire off the full rate of fire with Flickering Fire now. They will be lucky to get off the base rate and heralds can't fire it off themselves anymore if in the unit. The nerf to FMC will see most flyers either stay 100% in the air or stay gliding (since they can still jink). Nurgle DPs with wings will be the new hotness (2+ jink).

Demonology sucks up all the warp charge dice so likely a build that focuses on that won't be doing much else.

You cannot roll that many dice and not perils hard.

This was totally predictable to some one who played fantasy prior to 8th, linear scaling resources, just does not work.

It's not as broken as people think, Alpha Strike lists like Drop Pods and Heavy Ordinance can decimate it. DEDICATED HtH armies can run rough shod on it. So can super duper shooty armies.

I'm a advocate that its most certainly going to be a top tier list, however it is in fact harder to play than people think. It's VERY Player intensive and tracking wise it is a pain to keep track of who has what.