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I am just wanting to here some battle results of Imperial Knights against Wraith Knights and Riptides? Is the answer to combating these often dread opponents just to get a big robot of your own to combat them? I have been looking at the stats and I don't think that the Imperial Knight would be able to out gun them but their guns are still pretty devastating with both the Errant and the Paladin being able to do some damage to them but I think the real breaking point is when the Imperial Knight gets into Close Combat with them with the Str D Chainsword and the Stomping would be able to gain the advantage against both the Wraith Knight and the Riptide. You hear a lot of people saying they hate these two armies because of those specific units (There are other things about each but a big problem is these two units) so I just want to know does the math work out that the Imperium has a nice hard counter to these units in the Imperial Knight?

The Knights really lack the mobility and versatility that either a Riptide or Wraithknight can bring to the table, and that's what makes those two units especially dangerous. They're also monstrous creatures, which I prefer to a walker any day. Knights are good, no doubt, but I think they present a more easily dealt with problem than their Xenos big boy counterparts.

Imperial knights have a 12" movement phase, which Riptides lack. They're good vs Riptides, but will lose a lot vs wraithknights because of I5 S10.

Between an Imperial Knight and a Wraithknight... I'd vote the Wraithknight would win. There's a risk of course of dying to a roll of a 6 on the Destroyer weapon but the odds are in your favor. A Riptide however would probably get slaughtered on it's own and would have to spend the entire game running away from the Imperial Knight.

Strength 10 melee weapons on fast bodies are a great way to take on an Imperial Knight (Dreadknights and Wraithknights come to mind).

OP is of course correct, Knight defeats WK or Riptide in close combat, and is fast enough to force them into it if they don't have infinite room to run.

It's hard to hold it up as a counter to those units, however, as it is more expensive than they are. Still, if you want to destroy either a WK or a Riptide, sending your Knight after them will get it done, bar crazy luck.

Be careful of psychic powers in the Eldar game however. A Knight could lose to an invisible WK.

Well, I am a GK player and my Imperial Knight is going in with the GKs so I will have back up from 2 DKs as well. Also, being GK I have a staunch defense against any psychic based army. Still, it's not hard to get Invisible off, I know, I use it all the time but if they were trying to make their Wraithknight invisible, I would throw most of my warp charges at that.

So if I am reading this right, in a fight against a Wraithknight, I should send my two DKs at it, charge my force weapons and hopefully kill it in one shot?

Can 2 Imperial Knights down 3 Wraithknights?
That evens out the points, and I'd bet on the wraithknights.

 Envihon wrote:

So if I am reading this right, in a fight against a Wraithknight, I should send my two DKs at it, charge my force weapons and hopefully kill it in one shot?

That's what I'd do. The Wraithknight will have 1 chance to kill the DK in close combat at initiative 5 and it's very unlikely the Wraithknight will kill a DK in 1 turn, but very likely the DK will kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn assuming you used Force and have a Greatsword equipped. Even without the Greatsword, you only need 1 wound with 4 attacks, 5 if you charged. Most people take Wraithknights without upgrades and thus don't have an invulnerable save.

I'd guess that an Eldar player is going to try to use his Wraithknight to strip hullpoints from your IK while keeping the Wraithknights as far back as possible. If they keep them against a wall, then you can use your 2 DK's shunt move to corner his Wraithknights so that no matter what direction they move they will find themselves within charge range. They may decide to charge your DKs instead... but if you shunted them so that their foot is in terrain then you'll strike first.

I played a game as eldar yesterday against a ultramarine force with an allied IK. I did elect to assault it, but only after stripping it down to 2 hull points.
I would not let my wraithknight get into CC with an IK unless it had at most 3 HP left. The chances of getting pwnd by D attacks or a freaking stomp are too great.
And, seriously? A wraithknight, to whom the IK is an angry midget with a chainsaw, can get ID'd by a STOMP? WTF GW?

Riptides are horribly undercosted. Wraith knights are just a tad undercosted. Knights are just a tad overcosted. I used to think they were near spot on, but then their melee got nerfed. Still pretty close though.

Two IA riptides cost as much as one knight, and will rip it apart from across the board. The paladin won't do any return damage, the errant may do a couple wounds to one.

The paladin is much better against the wraith, and one knight vs a wraithknight is probably in the imperial knight's favor. (Granted it should be, given the points.)

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Can 2 Imperial Knights down 3 Wraithknights?
That evens out the points, and I'd bet on the wraithknights.

I shouldn't be surprised that Wraithknights are cheaper in both monetary value but points cost as well despite it even being a bigger model than the Imperial Knight. How do they justify that? Doesn't the Wraithknight base point cost come with more than the Imperial Knight?

It is nice knowing that I do have back up in the form of the DKs though that would be able to deal with multiple models or just take some of the threat away from the Imperial Knight. I know that people usually try to bring multiple Riptides but is it common for multiple Wraithknights?

2 Wraithknights without upgrades is common enough from what I've seen.

Be careful vs Wraithknights, as they can take down Knights and do it at a fraction of the cost.

Tau get stomped hard by Imperial Knights as Riptides/Broadsides are unlikely to do much damage.

Imperial Knights are good against just about anything.

So Wraithknights are the big trump card when it comes to giant robot death machines, huh? I was just looking for a leveling playing field. Are bare bones Wraithknights that powerful?

GW really dropped the ball on the Ghost Glaive for the Wraith Knight.
Big giant robots are supposed to have big giant melee weapons. It's like the robot law or something.
But for the wraithknight, you pay a lot of point for it, and you make it a fair bit worse in the process.

 Envihon wrote:
So Wraithknights are the big trump card when it comes to giant robot death machines, huh? I was just looking for a leveling playing field. Are bare bones Wraithknights that powerful?

A best case scenario engage for the wraithknight is a double tap with its two strength 10 cannons followed by a charge for a strength 10 hammer of wrath and 5 strength 10 attacks at I5. Yes, they are that good.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So Wraithknights are the big trump card when it comes to giant robot death machines, huh? I was just looking for a leveling playing field. Are bare bones Wraithknights that powerful?

A best case scenario engage for the wraithknight is a double tap with its two strength 10 cannons followed by a charge for a strength 10 hammer of wrath and 5 strength 10 attacks at I5. Yes, they are that good.

Wow, I might consider taking one for my Eldar detachment now. That is just unbelievable, I can see why I would want to charge in with my DKs to try and one shot him with force weapons. That is just unreal. It really does seem like that is the one weakness that the Imperial Knight would have being a vehicle over a monstrous creature but still that is nasty. How do most armies deal with that? I thought the Imperial Knight was good...

Honestly, a knight shouldn't have too much problem with Riptides(most of my opponents ignore mine until they can get into CC with it anyways). Our Jetpacks are no longer 12" which I saw being a real hindrance in the last game I played against a player who brought a Knight. We still get an additional 2d6 thrust move afteward but I rolled low and moved poorly. The Knight caught my Riptide and had absolutely no problem getting rid of him in CC. Yeah Riptide's got AP and Ordnance but I feel like it didn't take too long for the Knight to catch him - perhaps that's just me.

Wraithknights are definitely your 'bigger' threat here with a Knight I'd say. (Can Wraithknights effectively 'distort' a Titan or are they invulnerable to that?)

Wraithknights are a real problem for a lot of armies. The solution if you can't kill it is to chuck 10-20 fearless bodies at it (if you can catch it) and forget about it for the rest of the game. Marines, specifically, answer it with grav weapons.

I have a couple of options to deal with Wraithknights besides throwing an Imperial Knight but I was at least hoping that there was an equivalent that the Imperial armies could throw at one to deal with it. I haven't had the pleasure of going toe to toe with one but there is an Eldar player in my gaming group and he does field a Wraithknight. Here is to seeing what the GK and an Imperial Knight could do to the force. I may have to rely on my DKs or Mordrak and his Ghost Knights with a Librarian to Alpha Strike an Invisible squad close to the WraithKnight to use Force on him.

Grey Knights have an easier time dealing with Wraithknights. Everyone's got Force. So just nick him with anything AP3 (do nemesis force mauls exist?) and he dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Easier done with Halberds, because I6 means you nick before he stomps.

Mordrak and his retinue have more than enough Halberds to get in before a Wraithknight does. Hammerhand and Force are a must but there is a reason why there are 3 independent psykers in one squad.

Imperial Knight isn't a good counter to a WK, or Eldar. It IS a very good unit vs Tau in general and deadly if it gets into CC with a Riptide.

Being GK, one of the more powerful armies out there, you do have the tools to deal with Eldar and our WK, but it's not an Imperial Knight, who is a real jack-of-all-trades, as it can take on any unit in the game except those specifically designed to kill vehicles, which a Wraithknight definitely is. Also, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Seer Council, Shining Spears, Crimson Hunter and War Walkers, etc...most of the Eldar codex is pretty good at killing an Imperial Knight. Also don't fear Invisi as much (Stomp doesn't roll to hit, does it?), Misfortune is a much bigger concern, because it can give Scatterlasers rending (the only gun in Eldar army that's widely taken, isn't natural AP2 or doesn't have Bladestorm), which is absolutely devastating against anything. Full stop. The power is also WC1.

 Araenion wrote:
Imperial Knight isn't a good counter to a WK, or Eldar. It IS a very good unit vs Tau in general and deadly if it gets into CC with a Riptide.

Being GK, one of the more powerful armies out there, you do have the tools to deal with Eldar and our WK, but it's not an Imperial Knight, who is a real jack-of-all-trades, as it can take on any unit in the game except those specifically designed to kill vehicles, which a Wraithknight definitely is. Also, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Seer Council, Shining Spears, Crimson Hunter and War Walkers, etc...most of the Eldar codex is pretty good at killing an Imperial Knight. Also don't fear Invisi as much (Stomp doesn't roll to hit, does it?), Misfortune is a much bigger concern, because it can give Scatterlasers rending (the only gun in Eldar army that's widely taken, isn't natural AP2 or doesn't have Bladestorm), which is absolutely devastating against anything. Full stop. The power is also WC1.

As far as normal units go, GKs can shred them pretty well on their own, to me it becomes more about tactics and dice rolling at that point. My DKs can handle a Wraithknight, especially the shunting variety. My only sadness now comes from the fact about what do other Imperials do about this if the Imperial Knight isn't even some what of an equal. The SM have Grav weapons but what about everyone else?

Guard - just dakka him if you're going mech (plus Pask) or tarpit him if you're going foot.

Necrons - Avoid and kill everything else or throw Necron Warriors in there and watch it struggle(it has to be a big squad, though). MSS are superb vs a WK and Tesla can put down enough wounds to down a WK, but it usually isn't needed, as Tesla can actually handle Serpents the easiest out of all armies apart from Missilesides and HBC Riptides.

Orks - Tarpit and PK him to death.

Tau - struggle a bit, depending on the list

SM - Grav Guns and mass LCs from range, Chapter-Masters and Force Weapons in CC

Dark Eldar - Cackle gleefully when you put one on the table before pasting 2 in one turn

etc...you get the picture. None of the above options bar DE are ideal, but then, it's a great unit all-around, not over-the-top (except in a Serpent spam, but that's another matter entirely), but great. Same as IK, really. It can be dealt with by any army. I mean, if they can't take care of 1-3 T8 3+ unit with no inv, however will they handle Circus Daemon lists or Skyblight Tyranids, or Land Raiders, for that matter (with the change to vehicle damage table, LRs are tougher than ever since 5th). It's just a matter of knowing that there ARE such things out there and you have to plan for them.

For you, DKs are the plan. For DE, Splinter weapons. For SM, it's Grav Guns. Etc. Not all armies unfortunately have cost-effective options to handle tough things, but that's usually a problem with old dexes, not the unit itself.

Imperial guard have to make do with lascannons, plasma guns, and demolitions vet squads slapping melta bombs all over it. None of which are easy to do.

I never said it was. I actually said it wasn't, I just don't think a 240 point model should be easily dealt with. The OP asked how other armies do it and I mentioned some of the ways they can. I use a WK all the time vs varied armies and it's always paid it's points back, but only through smart use of board-control, not by actually killing stuff (stuff like lucky shots one-shotting a LR with HWCs once in five games is awesome, but doesn't really count, as that's anecdotal and can happen with any AT weapon). And it's never been so obnoxious that my opponents actually complained about it, as opposed to other things like Serpents and Warp Spiders. Even my Swooping Hawks get more hate than he does.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't actually so killy that you MUST kill it. Most of the time, you can just let him kill stuff and still get a win, unlike a Riptide who has a much much better shooting and can't really be left alone and avoided. That's the weakness of a predominantly CC unit. So you don't have to find counters to it, rather find counters to Eldar in general. Which are a bit harder to find, I'll grant you that.

a wraithknight has a far better chance than a riptide fighting a IK , it's S10 shooting, and S10 punching alongside I5, and a 4++ in CC(yes that Riptide can have a 3++, but I would rather ripple fire my melta gun into it's chest because smashing at S10 only goes so far with one attack) The reality is that the knight is more durable than the Tide, and can match it's range as it closes in to rip the riptide apart. Multiple Riptides tag teaming 1 Knight will work, but a Riptide cannot even think to solo a knight.

 Araenion wrote:
Imperial Knight isn't a good counter to a WK, or Eldar. It IS a very good unit vs Tau in general and deadly if it gets into CC with a Riptide.

Being GK, one of the more powerful armies out there, you do have the tools to deal with Eldar and our WK, but it's not an Imperial Knight, who is a real jack-of-all-trades, as it can take on any unit in the game except those specifically designed to kill vehicles, which a Wraithknight definitely is. Also, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Seer Council, Shining Spears, Crimson Hunter and War Walkers, etc...most of the Eldar codex is pretty good at killing an Imperial Knight. Also don't fear Invisi as much (Stomp doesn't roll to hit, does it?), Misfortune is a much bigger concern, because it can give Scatterlasers rending (the only gun in Eldar army that's widely taken, isn't natural AP2 or doesn't have Bladestorm), which is absolutely devastating against anything. Full stop. The power is also WC1.

I was debating adding a knight to my GK. I run into a lot of Eldar. What do you suggest instead? I was hoping it could help pop serpents.

Marines can also take sternguard. It seems to me that most people think they are just an alpha strike unit to get 5 combi-melta-shots off and die in the enemies Shooting phase, But their Special Ammo makes them one of the most flexible shooty units in the game. A full squad in rapid fire range will take 3,7 HP in average from a WK (using the poison rounds). So with a drop Pod and some lasgun or gravgun hits supporting them, a WK wont be a big issue for marines... yes I really love sternguard...