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Link to some Wonderfully Written Tactical Guides on Dark Eldar

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11454-dark-eldar-guides

Links to "Freakshow Tactics" Armies built around leadership based warfare by JimSolo

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645774.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646292.page

Thought I would start a thread for Dark Eldar Tactics with the new codex.

So far some people have the codex and some people do not, and some people do not care and will never buy it, so here we are.

As usual some people say the sky has fallen in, and some people like the new options.

Lets look at whats different, starting with HQ-

Most of the special characters are gone. Baron, Kher, Malys, Duke, Vect. See ya, obviously they are now too busy with plots to go onto battlefields. GW broke a pattern here, normally only unit entries without models have been dropped for 7th codexes, Vect had a model, which was same era as Drazhar, but is currently MIA or POW, or just gone.

Special Characters that remain-

Lelith
Urien
Drazhar

Lets Begin.

HQ

Lelith-

Dropped in cost 25pts base.

Lost shardnet and impaler base.

Can purchase impaler, it is now reroll all 1s to wound in assault. Costs 15 pts.

Gained warlord trait 'blood dancer: +1WS to model if it is the warlord.

Attacks still ignore all armor

Dodge rule is the same as before

Gained rampage

Now attacks = 5 base, old = 4

League apart changed:
Old- gained bonus attacks based on WS difference between highest WS in target unit and Lelith's WS
New- Reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls when in a challenge


Overall thoughts-

Against High WS models/units you now have more attacks if Rampage goes off, reroll all failed wounds and hits in a challenge is very good, especially given you have a good chance to end up with 7+d3[5+1 charge+1 for two ccwpn]+[d3 rampage] attacks on the charge, average 9 against any unit that outnumbers you regardless of target WS, netting more attacks than before.

Average 9 Attacks against T4 will see ~ 4 wounds on average that ignore saves after rerolls in a challenge if PfP is giving FC ~ 6 wounds on average in a challenge. Against T5 will see ~ 2.3 wounds average, if PfP is giving FC will see ~4 wounds in a challenge. Reminder that these attacks ignore all armor saves.

Urien

Dropped in cost by 50pts

Profile unchanged

With pain tokens gone no longer grants a pain token, now has haemonoculus ability that improves PfP level by 1 turn, normally it applies only to the unit a Haem is in, Uriens applies to all units within 12" not just his own. This means pfp 6+ turn 1, 5+ turn 2 for units within 12". There are other ways to augment this further in the codex.

Warlord trait- fixed, 'ancient evil' model and all friendly dark eldar units within 12" cause fear

Lost the ability to make grots uber grots
Lost mend the flesh
Lost father of Pain

gained 'It Will not Die!'

gained FnP 4+

Old ichor gauntlet- 3+ poisoned any unsaved wounds = ID
New Ichor injector- Fleshbane, lethal dose[wound rolls of 6 = ID]

Old Casket: 12" str=d6 ap=d6 assault 2d6 one shot
New Casket: 12" str=3 ap=3 assault 2d6 one shot

Old clone field: Negate d3 hits in assault
New clone field: 4++

Overall- In assault Urien lost the ability for every wound to be ID, but is now more likely to cause wounds, making him more threatening to non multiwound models, and slightly less threatening to non multiwound models. The casket is in some ways more useful now, you don't have to worry about the the chance of rolling a str 1 or 2 result, and don't have to worry about rolling an ap 4 ,5 ,6 making it overall slightly better at killing MEQs, as before you essentially had a 50/50 shot it was str 3 or less, and a 50/50 shot it was ap 3 or less, meaning the chance it was both was less than 50/50, which is where it is now given S 3 versus T 4, but at least you can predict the odds of something happening, and being able to make predictions about what you can do is more of a basis for competitiveness than before.

Urien is a force multiplier now with the extension of improving PfP for units within 12" whereas before he improved it only for d3 wrack/grot units


Drazhar

dropped in cost 40 pts

profile unchanged

wargear the same

Lost:
Darting strike
Riposte

Klaivex powers: 'muderous assault' and 'onslaught' gone

Master of blades:
Old- Incubi joined become fearless, drazhar gets klaivex powers listed above
New- Can only join incubi. While part of incubi unit, drazhar and all incubi in unit +1 WS

Gained-
Rampage
Muderous assault- gains additional attack for each to wound roll of 6 at same I step, these attacks do not generate further bonus attacks

Overall- still no access to grenades, or an inv save. Has the power to severely cripple anything he charges that is Toughness 5 or less, regardless of armor. Either possible 5+d3 str 5(6 with FC from PfP) ap 2 attacks, or 6+d3 str 4 (5 with FC from PfP) ap 3 attacks, with bonus attacks for to wound rolls of 6. With a unit of Incubi 3 incubi if they assault a unit that is not in cover, or even get assaulted by another unt, have the power to completely decimate said unit before they get to strike back due to large amount high initiative S4-5 ap 2/3 attacks. On the charge 3 incubi get 3x(4+d3) str3 ap 3 attacks or 3x(3+d3) str4 ap2 attacks at I 5 plus Drazhars attacks stated above, assuming no klaivex in squad, cost would be 250 for said unit.

Against a unit of TWC for example if you take the +1str ap2 option for all would see on average ~ 5.87 wounds that are AP 2 caused, if incubi have FC from PFP would be average ~ 8 wounds that ignore armor. if you take the AP 3 option for the extra attack but not the extra strength would see ~3.6 wounds on average without FC from PfP, and ~6.5 wounds with FC on the charge with ap3.

Results improve drastically against T4 and MEQ or TEQ.



Still weak against high toughness 6+ things due to needing to kill whats in assault and not being able to withstand a lot of attacks that ignore armor.

Non Special Character HQs

Archon

profile unchanged

cost unchanged

special rules the same [note that PfP has changed]

Gained- may buy a venom or raider as a dedicated transport

Ultimately the differences between the new Archon and the Old Archon are in the wargear.

Most notably the Husk blade is now ap 3 instead of 2, and soul trap has changed.

Soul Trap
Old- If bearer kills an enemy independent character or monstrous creature can take a LD test, if passed doubles strength of bearer, to max strength 10.
New- For each unsaved wound inflicted in challenge on an enemy character gain +1 strength (up to max strength 10)

PGL- no longer grants grenades to unit, instead gives a shooting attack that does wounds based off LD roll, fearless and ATSKNF models immune. The ability to grant a court, incubi, grots, wracks, or any other unit joined grenades is now gone.

Blast pistol- still range 6.

Shadowfield has changed slightly, for the better
Old- 30 pts
New-40 pts, works until the end of the phased it is lost due to failed save, and is no longer 1 per army.

Webway portal- large change
Old- let you put out small blast marker sized "marker" and models could arrive from it from reserves
New-If model with WWP is in reserves or ongoing reserves, the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and this unit will not scatter if arriving from deepstrike reserve.


This is a very large change.

Essentially you can put a model with a WWP with any unit it can join in reserves, and now they can arrive anywhere you choose. This is something the Dark Eldar needed for a long time and is fluffy as well as powerful.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Auswin wrote:
You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.

Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.

In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.

+1 to this.

also for allying dark eldar bring FA slot open topped transports, which may be attractive to harlequins, banshees, Striking scorpions,and wraithblades.

Reavers

Loss of bladevane changes their tactical value if you used them to harass units. If you used them as mobile AT pot shots they are better.

thoughts-

3 reavers with 1 blaster before = 81pts

3 reavers with 1 blaster now = 58pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters before = 162pts

6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops before = 172pts

6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops and 2 blasters before=202pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters now = 116pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters and 2 cluster caltrops now = 146pts

consider we can get 6 FA.

Reavers may no longer be harassers, but now can be dual threat for less cost than 1 role they had before. Before bladevaning would allow us to put hits on something without engaging it, but we gave up shooting and assault, now we can shoot and assault and benefit from both in the same turn.

I think reavers lost utility, but they gained a lot in power for a lower cost.

Reavers now have the potential to threaten armor in shooting and assault, since HoW caltrops hit the armor facing you charge you can score a significant amount of str6 hits that rend, on average you will see 1 rend on a charge with 2 caltrops. This can give a unit 2 blaster shots and average 6 str 6 hits and 1 str6+d3 hits on a vehicle in 1 turn if it can shoot and charge it. That is no joke against transports, even against non transports you are looking at 2 str8 lance hits and a follow up str 8 hit from the rend, which is no joke for 1 round. More impressively, if the vehicle is already hurt, if you drop it with the blaster shots you can now charge the squad that has to disembark from the explosion, with a good chance of annhilating them from the HoW hits alone.

I think taking a "large unit" of reavers is not very tactically sound.

With access to 6 FA per detachment if we are taking the raiders detachment, it is best to take small units of reavers. You can always run them near each other so they can combine into an assault for the effect of a large unit, and against smaller targets break up to engage multiple units. As power from pain is no longer requiring us to kill units to progress the PfP level it is not that necessary to have a large unit of reavers, unless you just want to roll a bunch of dice when you shoot/assault things, but then be wary you will be rolling a bunch of dice when you have to make jink saves...


Regarding heat leances on scourges- DSing melta works for marines because even outside of melta range its str 8. Heat lances outside of melta range are str6, yeah they have lance but against a transport or armor that is AV 11-12 you still need 5-6 to just glance, a str 8 meltagun is glancing or penning on 3+ vs av 11 and 4+ versus av 12. Consider an average roll on 2d6 is 7, so a melta gun is scoring a 15 on average in melta range, and a 11.5 on average outside melta range, a heat lance is scoring a 9.5 outside melta range, and a 13 average inside melta range. Honestly heat lances is equal to melta gun at AV13-14 and below it in quality at AV 12 or less, which is why melta works out better deep striking than scourges with heat lances. Heat lances do have a better range than meltaguns, but the range difference for being in "melta range" is only 3" ie 6" for meltagun 9" for heat lance. So there is a 3" window where heat lances get melta range over meltaguns, and against AV12 or less the average roll from a meltagun is still good enough to glance AV 12 or less with a strong chance to pen. Those 2 points of strength make a large difference.

Foot Dark Eldar-

In older editions I do not think it would be viable, with WWP I think it is viable now.

it's hard to discuss a possibly viable foot list, without knowing the specifics of the event - often they have different list building rules.

That said, I think it is possible to have a non vehicle(armor) dark eldar list that works, I am not sure if it is as competitive as a DE list that uses vehicles.

The basis of the list would be using MSU FA and elite elements to saturate the board at the start, and have some in reserve to handle threats. Then your troop elements would be large blocks of things with HQs that have WWP so you can overcome the infantry lack of mobility by being able to place them as you see fit more or less turn 2+. I think its viable, but probably a lot harder to succeed with than a "traditional" dark eldar list.

I think ultimately a few of the formations + the raiding party detachment will end up being the most competitive pure dark eldar builds. namely the coven formation that gives you scouting talos, combined with mandrakes you have a large amount of initial close target saturation. I also think the formation that is 2 wracks in venoms that get 1st turn deepstrike and score d3 VP instead of 1 if they get first blood is probably one of the best formations published. Essentially you can deepstrike and disembark the wracks on a soft unit, or softened unit, and drop 4 liquifier templates on them, if they die you just got on average 2 VPs, thats pretty damn good. Not sure if the Venoms also get the special rule for more VP or if its just the wrack units form the formation, either way its nice and gives DE a first turn response if we are going second and the enemy opened themselves or DS something themselves.

There are changes in the codex but ultimately DE are the same, they will win based on the movement phase and setup. Just now there are lot more tools to retake the edge during our movement phases.

mercury14 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.

Sounds like a mishap.

it is just a way to mishap.

tank shock does not give permission to deploy within 1" of enemy models, which is what causes the mishap.

tank shock also requires you move some distance in a set direction which is the actual tank shock and models you move through, are tank shocked if they are non vehicle non terrain things. None of this stops mishaping from the initial deployment.

even if it did work, you cannot disembark if you tank shock so probably would not be best the best idea.

Hollismason wrote:
Has the coven thing come out already?

I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.


I think these are the rumoured formations

1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord

7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat

That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.

Otherwise that's a 2k formation.

Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.

its a formation for large point games, you cant have units count as from more than one detachment so it is indeed all the units from each detachment in total.

there is a similar thing for tyranids, with the squads all at min sized and no upgrades on anything it comes to ~2500pts

the option 3 thing is very good, but if you plan to alpha strike turn 2 you could end up losing if you go first, you drop your wrack venoms, if opponent kills them at end of game turn 1 (both player turns 1) you lose.

With the increase in MSU I don't think WWP WG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?

thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.

in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DE HQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
So this gentleman was brought to my attention.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/I/Irillyth-2.pdf


Yeah... I'm sure something can be done about that 12 inch Debuff with Dark Eldar.

Also it's not been brought up but the Archon is able to purchase a Venom as a Dedicated Transport, which is a pretty good vehicle.

the 12" debuff only applies if that IC is in a shadow spectre squad according to its rules. You could put a WWP archon in with them that had some -ld funkiness tho.

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
With the increase in MSU I don't think WWP WG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?

thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.

in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DE HQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.

What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.

5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Could somebody explain to me how does the Void Mine work now? I can't find the bloody description in the Codex.

its on p.106 in codex

its bomb 1, large blast, same other rules as last edition.

I think wyche cult is more viable than initial thoughts from many people, myself included.

One of the other things worth mentioning is the RSR detachment for wyches is pretty nice, as wyches are troops they gain the cover save from night fighting and turn 1. This gives them an out of combat save for a turn or two which helps their survivability towards getting FnP. Also exploding vehicles which last edition were very painful for units of wyches without a FnP save, are slightly mitigated here as the explosion hit does not have the ignores cover rule, so you can take a cover save when your ride blows up at least.

Animus Vitae is also somewhat useful, the effect is huge when it goes off, but as the weapon is 1 shot only and requires an unsaved wound from its str 4 hit is less than a 50/50 shot of getting it off against most armies.


If you run large beastpacks you can even pull off WWP blobs, by getting the beastpacks in the opponents face turn 1-2 then dsing in the wyche blobs with WWP.

mercury14 wrote:
A few popular podcasts in their Dark Eldar codex review said that Wyches had no grenades so they're junk. Like three of them did. I have no idea why but it's become like dirty gossip now.

some people have bad verbal reasoning, so when they hear "lost haywire grenades" it becomes "have no grenades"

avoid podcasts for rules.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Hellions are just like every other jump infantry now; massively outclassed by the bikes in the same slot that only cost 3 points more.
The problem isn't with hellions, it's with ALL jump infantry.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.

exalted.

Scourges with just shard carbines are very good anti MC and anti infantry for the cost.

The only issue is that you can get massed splinter shots elsewhere and there aren't too many places we can get a large amount of special and or heavy weapons in a small unit.

Regarding hellions, I don't think its even necessary to put an expensive HQ with them. They have a 12" move and the splinter pods have an 18" range. You should be able to shoot something turn 1 or 2. They already have deepstrike so if you want to deepstrike them you can without an HQ that has WWP. Of course you have to scatter now, but against certain armies on certain tables there is lots of space already... Hellions have decent anti infantry shooting, and can get up to str 5 on the charge with FC from PfP so they can threaten light armor and infantry fairly well. The problem is they are pretty fragile, and what they bring we can get a lot of other places.

The thing with Dark Eldar, possibly more than any other army, is the game is won from really just two things.

1- the movement phase
2- unit allocation/target priority

1 is hard to discuss, because it is highly variable based on setup, terrain, opponents move etc.

2- You want to always be in the position where you have your worst unit(s) tying up the opponents best unit, and your best unit on their 2nd best, your 2nd best on their 3rd best, etc. This of course ties in with point 1, which is why 1 is first, because that lets you setup this scenario.

With 2 in mind yes reavers can pen a land raider, so can a 10 man warrior squad that has a blaster/s cannon in a raider with splinter racks, but there are things in the dark eldar list that can do it much better. ie haywire scourges, blasterborn deepstrike with an archon with blaster, 2 ravagers with dark lances.

I don't anticipate seeing any supplements like the orc/imperials one with Dark Eldar stuff in them for a while.

possibly ever.

The problem is they are not seen as one of the "main bad guy going to end the world" type of threats for campaigns.

The only campaign book I recall seeing them in was "valedor" where essentially they were on the "good" side fighting with eldar against nids, and that was an apoc book.

the dark eldar are ultra evil, but they exist in a weird paradox in that they are essentially a neutral force in the scheme of things. They have their own plots, but they are not really based on conquering and or destroying the galaxy like many of the other evil factions. As such its unlikely they will be in a campaign supplement.

We may one day see some supplements for wych cults, or kabal of the black hand(would be a good way to return vect...), or maybe an supplement that has eldar+dark eldar versus something and we might see a few formations there.

The recent pending release of nid drop spores makes the above seem probable in the not so distant forever away future.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just going to leave this here...

interesting.

wonder if there will be a new formation that lets DE get an actual LoW slot other than a CAD.

Drop pod is not an easy thing to face.

in 7th there are starting to be a lot of builds for the codexes that are 7th, that are good builds. This makes it hard to build a TAC list sometimes.

regardless of the above thoughts..

against drop pods the best you can do is keep your best stuff off table at the start, so they have to pick from your mediocre to bad units, and try to counter their drop pod assault.

The talos/cronos/haem formation is good for this, as are mandrakes in min units. One because its tough to kill, the other because it has to be countered by models that ignore cover to remove it effectively and its so cheap to put a 3 model unit out.

Other things that make this viable are squads of 1 lhamean per archon. Its 10pts, its not going to do much but under circumstance you force your opponent to direct fire at it to remove it, ie to table you, or remove a unit from an objective. and 10pts against many armies that use 200+ point units as their main forces is good even if it just eats 1 turn of shooting to die.

basically just things you can put on the table that cost close to nothing, or are not easy to remove, so your opponent cannot table you then your beta strike killers come in and counter their drop pods.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No one's been biting in the list sub-forum, so I'll fish for some CC here.

These are two lists that I need to pick from to run in an 1850 points tournament. They're mostly the same, coming down to either Venom-spam with Coven formations or Raider spam with coven formations. Curious to know which list Dakka thinks is stronger.

Spoiler:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Here are two (hopefully) competitive lists that I'll be choosing from to run in a tournament. C&C is, as always, appreciated.

List A

Real-Space Raiders
- Archon (Blaster)
Venom (2xSplinter-Cannons)
- 5xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (2xSplinter-Cannons)
- 5xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (2xSplinter-Cannons)
- 5xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (2xSplinter-Cannons)
- 5xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (2xSplinter-Cannons)
- Ravager (3xDark Lances)
Dark Artisan Formation
- Haemonculus
Talos Pain Engine (Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster)
Cronos Pain Engine (Spirit Probe)
Corpsethief Claw Formation
- 5xTalos Pain Engines (4xTwin-linked Haywire Blasters)

List B

Real-Space Raiders
- Archon (Blaster)
5xKabalite Warriors (2xSplinter Cannons, 2xBlasters)
Raider (Splinter Racks)
- 10xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Raider (Splinter Racks)
- 10xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Raider (Splinter Racks)
- 10xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Raider (Splinter Racks)
- 10xKabalite Warriors (Blaster)
Raider (Splinter Racks)
Dark Artisan Formation
- Haemonculus
Talos Pain Engine (Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster)
Cronos Pain Engine (Spirit Probe)
Corpsethief Claw Formation
- 5xTalos Pain Engines (4xTwin-linked Haywire Blasters)

Hmm. I like them both. I'd be tempted to go with the Raider list myself, since I tend to face a vehicle thick meta.

I like the raider list better tbh, but thats based on my gaming group. Lots of nids and daemon FMC, the splinter racks ups the chance you can get hits to force grounding tests, which gives you some decent anti air in regards to FMC only of course.

Consider 9 warriors rapid firing at FMC, 18 shots, need 6s, 3 hits, reroll misses 2 more hits, 5 hits is 2.5 wounds. not amazing but it has a decent chance to wound a FMC and force a grounding test. The more you force the opponent to make the better the odds they fail.

having the raiders over the venoms also gives you an additional potential darklight shot a turn per unit, and considering your not really hurting for poisoned shots the venoms just aren't necessary.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Borg wrote:
I haven't purchased the new Codex yet. How have these characters/units fared?


Urien Rakarth
Hellions
Scourges
Kalibite Warriors
Ravager
Wyches


Thanks.

Urien - fared well
Hellions- were not great before, got a little worse.
Scourges- are now amazing for their cost
Kabalite warriors- pretty much unchanged, dropped in cost 1 point per model
Ravager- lost ability to fire all weapons on move at full BS, went up in cost...
Wyches- No change in cost, wyche weapons cheaper but worse, however a squad of 10 wyches can now take 3 wyche weapons.

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.

I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.

1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".

2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.

3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".

4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.

5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.

6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.

7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.

1- combat drugs are about the same, but there is no longer an option from a certain HQ to allow you a better chance to get a useful combat drug option, and there currently are no dataslates or formations for wyche cults that would improve combat drugs, or allow for a second combat drug roll or some such.

2- Wyche weapons are not about the same. The ability to reduce attacks is gone, and the rerolls have been severely reduced on the wyche weapons, they did go down in cost by half but I personally, and I think many people would agree, they went further than half in effectiveness.

Old hydra gauntlets = lots of extra attacks
old shardnet+impaler= reduce enemy attacks by 1 in btb
old razorflails reroll all to hits and to wounds

all of these were good. arguably the hydra gauntlets were the worst as you average 3.5 attacks, with half hitting, and at S3, maybe 4 your not really getting that much.

new hydra gauntlets=re-roll to wounds
new razorflails= re-roll to hit
new shardnet+impaler= reroll to hit rolls and to wound rolls of 1.

with wyches WS and S the roll you are most likely to fail in a tournament setting is to wound, making razorflails now the worst option. Hydra gauntlets are now the best as most of the dice you will need to reroll will most likely be on wounds, with shardnet+impaler being a middle ground of these two not anywhere as good as before options.

3- pfp overall is better in that the whole army gets it, old wyches would start with it often as you would put a Haem with them so turn 1, or even before you go they have FnP 5+. Currently they are not getting that until turn 3, maybe 2 depending on various army options.

4- old phantasm grenade launcher gave defensive, honestly I agree with you wasn't that big of a loss. I vaguely recall a faq stating the cover from defensive grenades did not count as cover for shooting during overwatch. New PGL is a list tailored item only, since it does not work on ATSKNF or fearless in most tournament settings you will be lucky to have a target to fire at this over all the games you play in total. In the past years multiple times in tournaments on the east coast I have played 4-6 rounds and played against at most 1 opponent each tournament that had models that were not space marines, or just fearless.

5- I don't see much of a change.

6- warriors going down does not make wyches worse, but makes you more likely to buy more warriors over wyches. Which in the end makes wyches less likely to be taken, but not in of itself worse.

7- I think a hekatrix has uses, and the cost isn't ridiculously high to upgrade. 10 pts for an additional attack, 5 pts for the haywire grenades.

3+ jink save from RR is great to okay depending on peoples meta, there is still a decent amount of ignores cover out there.

The issue with PFP is the wyches are in a fast transport, this edition and last. Realistically you can pull off a turn 2 charge with them.

If a raider blows up its taking most of the wyches with it, due to T3 and no armor save.

Considering that the wyches are probably going to reach assault turn 2, having a haem now to give increased pfp is not of much greater use than before since if the raider is getting blown up prior to our turn 2, they still are not getting a 5+ fnp like they did before.

3+ jinking raider is good, im just not so sure that a 3+ jink with no save for the wyches from FnP is better than a 4+ jink with a 5+ save for the wyches if the raider goes down. It's not that far off tho.

wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.

example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.

which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.

reavers-

Currently I run 2 units of 6 with 2x caltrops each and champ with power weapon. 151 a squad.



I usually lose 1-2 vehicles first turn. It's been since about 4th edition since I lost a lot of vehicles turn 1.

I think wyches are decent against dreds, not against knights.

If I had wyches with haywire, I would even consider assaulting them against an assault dred. Most assault dreds after saves will on average only gib 1 wych so you have a few turns of trying to glance it with haywire grenades, essentially just tarpitting it.

I wouldn't go after a knight because of stomp.

a lot of TOs rule stomp can hit models outside of the assault if the rules for stomp are followed for placing blasts, so it gives them a chance to hurt things of yours near the assault, also one lucky stomp, or a few average ones, on the wyches will end the assault making the tarpit not so effective, and a knight will average 2 stomps on the turn you charge it.

I have a strong feeling its not actually legal.

if it involves attaching anything to the scalpel squadrons and DSing them turn 1 its not legal, as the attached models are not units from that formation[the scalpel squadron].

I'd be more interested if his list was unambiguously battle forged. He has 2 lhamean as the only hq to get 2 venoms. Many people don't think courts are a separate hq choice, and I know the ITC faq rules they are but the people who make up The ITC have ruled yes to some questionable things because it supports an army build the desire to play.

sweetbacon wrote:
Over on the The Dark City, a member posted a reply from GW's Black Library confirming that the Llahmean HQ with no Archon is legal.

That's not a valid rules source unfortunately for the reasons posted in the ymdc faq

sweetbacon wrote:
Fair enough. If you're waiting for GW to officially FAQ this before you accept it, then you might be in for a long wait. Until then, we only have what they wrote in the codex and the GW employee's response when asked a direct question about it to go off of.

I play Dark Eldar, and have since before the models were released for sale

A single response from a single employee is not a basis for rules decision, often in the past the people you e-mail have given different responses to the same question when asked about a rule. That is why its not considered valid.

And while I agree that it could be a long wait, with a duration of possibly never, I would rather err on the side of not taking advantage when something is definitely questionable. Of course if you ask your TO ahead of time if its okay, they have time to discuss it and come to a ruling before the tournament- which is a nice thing to let them do. I think many tournaments will allow it, mainly because there are many armies that are popular (not dark eldar) that have units that require the same wording to take, ie honor guard, priests, command squads, lone wolves, etc- and many of those players would prefer those options, as they give you more shooting without having to spend points on HQs.

I don't have very high hopes for Harlequins.

I am expecting a Militarum Tempestus style codex where they are there own faction with their own army list, that has about 4 datasheets and only fills out 1-3 slot types for a force org chart, probably HQ/Troops maybe FA.

Most likely they will bring a psyker, the shadowseer which will be ML1 and have a set power we have seen before.

The jetbike harlies will be a gem, since it will probably give them a 3+ armor save, and they will probably have skilled rider+jink or a ++ of some kind.

Which will give a fairly durable very fast unit which would be pretty sweet to have.

other units could be Mimes. which were basically what scouts are to Space marines for harlequins. Given how they said the kits will be, would have to be a combo kit with the harlequins and we have been told via rumors that one of the 2 box sets will be a combi kit for infantry..

not sure about those rumors.

lots of things triggering off hits instead of wounds. cannot be joined by characters when old solitaire was not allowed to join anything, hence the name 'solitaire'

Would be nice if they changed the rules to kiss as stated in rumor.

6 wraiths is what, 43*6=258pts?

5 grots is 180pts without upgrades. Should compare against 4 wraiths as that is closer in points. 4 wwraiths with whipcoils are 176 pts.

Grots aren't going to win against wraiths easily, but whoever the winner is will be decided by one person rolling very well, and the other rolling very poorly for one round, otherwise they will come close to wiping each other out over 3-4 rounds of assault.


TBH I think flayed ones are a little scarier than wraiths now.

3 attacks base, WS4 S4 T4 shred, they come with two flayer claws so they get an offhand weapon. 13pts each. oh and they cause fear... they do suffer morale, but if there is a CCB within 12" they can reroll. They also get infiltrate and can come in packs of 20.

20 of them is 260 pts.

20 of them puts out 100 attacks, yes 100, on the charge at strength 4 with shred. Against WS 4 toughness 5 they will hit 50 times and cause 25 wounds. No idea if you can add characters to them in the new codex.

They get a 4+ save 5+ RP, and there are ways they could get a 4+ save 4+ RP with a reroll. If that happens it takes on average 24 poison shots to kill just 1.

Even if the wraiths get off a turn 2 charge on equal points of grots, chances are the assault is lasting until turn 4 or 5 and seeing the wraiths either dead or down to a model before the grots are done with.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Obelisk is solid but I don't think it's a massive problem for us. I run a 5 man firedragon squad in a venom to answer the call of LOW's

Well, that's a bit disingenuous since anyone playing pure DE doesn't have that option.


This is a complete aside, Red Corsair, but I keep meaning to ask you - what's your avatar from?

Well That's true, but honestly deepstriking heatlances or haywaire blasters will kill it in short order, heatlance/haywire scourge are only 120pts so we get two units at 60 points less. Even blaster born have solid odds. Remember it's too big and on a flight stand to get cover and it can't jink, so yes you need multiple pens/glances but 6 HP in the open shouldn't be a major issue. Also remember we CAN afford to castle since we can redeploy so easily, meaning it will only get a single target turn one if done well and it's still only bs4 with 5 shots that don't ignore cover, though lucky tesla is a thing, an obscured raider/ravager has solid odds with night shields. Just sacrifice a raider or two turn 1 to give your ravagers cover. Deep strike your blasters. He won't stay powered down forever. It definitely should be killed sooner then later though I'd wait until he powers up.

My avatar is Captain Picard from a star trek episode where he goes back to the 40's and fights the borge lol. Some genius spliced chunk from the movie goonies and made a gif that I clearly get a kick from


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:
At first glance I was thinking the Obelisk was going to be crazy good for its points. And to be sure, it's good for its points.

There's just so much drop melta, haywire, lance, grav, and Knights in the game right now though, that I'm thinking they'll be blown up pretty regularly.

Their actually cost very appropriately IMO. Nothing broken just a solid unit they have. Fortunately it's just av 12 to us. If you could kill two AB's then you should be able to handle this thing.

I hate to tell you this but your avatar is not from star trek, its from Indiana jones and the temple of doom, and the chunky kid is chunk from the goonies doing the 'truffle shuffle'



is a still from indiana jones. The lady in the far right is the heroine from the film.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:
So the splinter cannon upgrade on the Razorwing is salvo 4/6. But it always has to move so does that mean it can never fire 6 times?


btw, Interesting stuff Mush.

I believe vehicles have relentless, so it always counts as stationary when firing