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I've seen a few topics about balancing a codex so thought why not start one for csm?

I've been playing csm for almost 2 years now and have really enjoyed the fluff and models it has for offer but have unfortunately found it not to have auto includes and the need to work hard to win with the models that feel weaker and squishy(this is in comparison to my orks)

My main opponent are tau and grey knights but i believe this has little to do with my win/loss rate as others have had similar issues with the army (unless you ally daemons of course)

So to the topic at hand, i was wondering what you guys think?
I find it hard personally to pin point what the codex lacks in comparison to others but i know I'd like to see csm not fleeing off the board (maybe all units have insane heroism?) and ap3 or shred chain axes

My view:

Something along the lines of ATSKNF, but not quite as good. Either they auto rally OR they cannot be over-run. Maybe both so long as the champion is alive or something.

They shouldn't get chapter tactics (sorry guys) as you guys have marks instead, but maybe make them cheaper or something.

Named characters should fall in price as they are too expensive.

Obviously cult troops will not be able to be moved to troops, but you'll likely receive a formation that reverses the elites with troops, so 0-3 troops, 2-6 elites.

Nurgle either needs to be nerfed or other marks need massive buffs as Nurgle seems to be the only useful mark at the moment.

Defiler should be lowered in points.

That's basically it. I don't really have many ideas myself but what do you think of these? Also, Chaos has gained loads from IA:13, so long as your group allows FW.

I think that the problems go beyond a simple rebalancing; half the problems are that the book just isn't very fun, and not simply that it doesn't eat enough faces. I'd like a redesign to go a bit deeper than simply fixing what we already have.

That said, it's probably beyond the scope of this project. In simpler terms:

- The Mark of Tzeentch goes back to a 5++ as standard. In a better world I'd go the full hog and give them Brotherhoood of Psykers as well.
- The Mark of Khorne provides Preferred Enemy instead of extra Attacks. Still a similar combat output but now there is a reason to put it on Havocs, Obliterators etc.
- The Mark of Slaanesh could do with a little kicker but I'm unsure as to what. Perhaps it provides Fearless in addition to +1 Initiative.
- The Mark of Nurgle could simply go to FNP instead of +1 Toughness. There isn't a real reason that it should make you immune to death-by-explosion.

- Thousand Sons get a Mastery 2 Champion and exchange their shots for variable ammo: Keep an AP3 option but also allow for Ignore Cover, Poison and longer ranges.
- Bererkers could stand to get a (possibly big) price cut. I don't think they are an inherently bad unit, simply overcosted. Maybe allow Land Raiders as dedicated transports.
- Possessed get Unit Type: Beasts
- Mutilators could get away with a bigger squad size and cheaper entry cost. Ideal world would be that they aren't forced to shift weapons, but choosing to do so provides +1WS for that phase.
- I'd like Chaos Marines to get cheaper as the squad size increases. So you would start with 5 for 75pts. Then the next 5 are only 12pts each. Then from 10 to 15, they are 10pts each. Finally you can go from 15 to 20 at only 7pts each.
- Cultists are almost there. For varieties sake I'd like Marks to be repriced into something sensible and make Autoguns a more tempting prospect.
- I'd just expand what Chosen can do. Give them access to Bikes and Daemonic Steeds, cut the price way back on melee upgrades, and probably Fearless/Stubborn as a kicker.

- The unit could do with a more diverse Troops selection; for all the Cult options, you are still picking between 6 different types of Infantry. We have Eldar Jetbikes, Marine Scouts and Bikes, Tau Battlesuits. Why not allow Spawn, or Possessed, or Terminators or Raptors into the Troop slot?

Troop CSM have three heavy weapons at ~13-15 models, I.e. Three autocannons. One heavy at six models.

Champions all ws5 Ld10, all mandatory, +30 points.

Warp smith becomes upgrade to troop CSM aspiring champion. No HQ.

Chosen in troops, all chaos armor, Ld10, company standard, preferred enemy space marines.

Raptors have option to buy lightning claws.

No warp talons.

Raptors all hit&run, daemon, both jet and jump infantry.

No VotLW; there is no modeling reason.

Troop CSM BS3 Ld7, 10 points per.

All variants of heavy flamers or autocannons count as heavy flamers and autocannons.

Berzerkers: All the things.

Here is a thread I made in which I tried my hand at developing some Undivided legion tactics. I don't know how relevent those chapters would be to this project, but I think that the Chaos ATSKNF equivalent I made could be pertinent.

For those too lazy to click the link:

Angels of Death
Any unit containing at least one model that possesses this special rule automatically passes fear tests. Furthermore, if a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught by a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but instead fall-back. The victorious unit may then consolidate as normal.

- - - -

I've never liked the idea of CSM being able to get swept or become helpless children in the face of fear USR causing creatures- they're still Space Marines after all. However I wanted to keep in tact the idea that CSM are much more self-serving then Space Marines and far less self-sacrificing. Thus, they can still be pinned or run off the board, to showcase their willingness to abandon a cause if they don't think the reward is worth the risk.

If I could point people at my project to re-develop... Well 3/4 of the entire chaos army: a new reign of chaos. No where near done, but I do appreciate feed back and suggestions. I like some of the ideas I've seen here and hope you don't kind if I incorporate them into my project.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Here is a thread I made in which I tried my hand at developing some Undivided legion tactics. I don't know how relevent those chapters would be to this project, but I think that the Chaos ATSKNF equivalent I made could be pertinent.

For those too lazy to click the link:

Angels of Death
Any unit containing at least one model that possesses this special rule automatically passes fear tests. Furthermore, if a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught by a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but instead fall-back. The victorious unit may then consolidate as normal.

- - - -

I've never liked the idea of CSM being able to get swept or become helpless children in the face of fear USR causing creatures- they're still Space Marines after all. However I wanted to keep in tact the idea that CSM are much more self-serving then Space Marines and far less self-sacrificing. Thus, they can still be pinned or run off the board, to showcase their willingness to abandon a cause if they don't think the reward is worth the risk.

Chaos Space Marines shouldn't be any more fearless than Horus Heresy era marines. ATSKNF is the edge 40k marines have over 30k marines. Chaos Space Marines don't receive the intense mental conditioning that Loyalists receive.

Instead I'd just lift the Legiones Astartes rule from Horus Heresy and add in Stubborn like unlisted legiones get.

Chaos Astartes: Units with this Special Rule may always attempt to regroup normally regardless of casualties and have the Stubborn special rule.

I'd also give Chaos Space Marines Marks for free (except Nurgle, that can be 2 ppm).

Here's my Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have may reroll 1 Leadership test per turn and have the Adamantium Will Special Rule.

 J3f wrote:
Chaos Space Marines shouldn't be any more fearless than Horus Heresy era marines. ATSKNF is the edge 40k marines have over 30k marines. Chaos Space Marines don't receive the intense mental conditioning that Loyalists receive.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Troop CSM BS3 Ld7, 10 points per.

You're generalising immensely. Chaos Space Marines can be anything from low-quality hot-housed bodies (Like the Iron Warriors from Dead Sky, Black Sun) or they can, thanks to the gifts of Chaos and/or the skill of their creators, be superior to loyalist Marines right from the start. Many of them are also recent renegades who are practically identical to normal SM except for their allegiance.

Blaxican's suggestion is far more all-purpose and therefore better.

I think the problem is built in to the game. Elite marines are almost exclusively bad in the game. They cost more, but are still too easyto kill. Even the tactical marines witht their superior skills feel little meh on the tabletop.

I think the problem lies in the armour save and cover mechanics, as marines don't get too much benefit from cover compared to the cheap 5+/6+ save infantry. Also ap2 weapons are so common that marines often don't benefit too much of their good save. (On the other hand, ap3 weaponry is mostly pretty bad, as they're expensive and commonly just reduce the save to 4+ Cover.

With these rules i think the basic chaos marine could cost maybe 9-10 points to be "viable". However that goes against the fluff and would be ridicilous. Therefore i would up the ws and bs for all marines to 5 and add feel no pain as standard. Those with feel no pain already on their profile, should get a 4+ fnp. Also bolters should be little bit more dangerous, clumsy shootas have the same killing power (as the ap 5 is rarely very useful).

Then after these upgrades , I would give chaos marines some free veteran skills from their eternal war experience along the lines of chapter tactics. As it's chaos, all units could have different skills. That would balance the comparision between the atsknf marines and their fallen counterparts, making the chaos marines more customisable. Also these veteran skills would give te opportinity for people to theme their armies to a certain legion with suitable skills for each of them.

Instead of giving Marines layered save (3+/5++/5+FNP), I'd instead rebalance the game to make it harder to take AP2 (and some AP3) weapons in mass. Plasma Pistols and Plasma Guns can AP3, Plasma Cannons and Larger can remain AP2. IG Veterans and similar units can take fewer Special weapons per squad, Riptide Weapons are nerfed, etc.

Everything is rebalanced points wise so that Plasma and similar weapons don't stop being viable.

Space Marines return to what they are meant to be an expensive strike force that don't need no cover. 15 point Tactical Marines that can charge straight into enemy forces without having fight a battle of inches in a trench warfare style movement.

That doesn't help them against the massive amount of wounds the units like broadsides or wave serpents can do. 3+ save is actually quite problematic as it doesn't confer good enough save to protect against the massed small arms fire, but on the other hand it's expensive and ignored by the weapons that most players tend to maximise, because 2+ saves (especially combined with high toughness /multiple wounds) are much harder to go through with massed fire.

Make them 1 point cheaper, allow them to have ccw, bp AND bolter for free, allow access to drop pods, make it so they can't be swept in combat.
Now they are nothing special, but still worth taking.

Bring back the old Legion books. Black Legion have better morale and access to everyone else's Cult infantry (TS, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers, Noise Marines), the four specific-Chaos-god-aligned Legions get their relevant Cult infantry in Troops and Cult Terminators/Raptors/BIkes (depending on the Legion), the rest get broader access to their fancy stuff (Raptors in Troops for Night Lords, Obliterators/Mutilators in Elites for Iron Warriors, ways to pump up Cultists for Word Bearers, full-access Daemonology/Infiltrate/sneaky toys for Alpha Legion).

Most of the Cult units need to be cheaper and/or more versatile (Mozzamanx' suggestions on the Thousand Sons and the Marks are great), for ease of bookkeeping rewarding larger CSM squads would be better done as a higher entry cost and a uniformly low extra-models cost the way 30k does it. A gun per five models in the Troops CSM. Chaos Knights (older models, no 4++ directional shield but something more like the Contemptor's 5++ vs. shooting/6++ vs melee). Hell Blades with alternate loadouts as a cheaper/more versatile flyer instead of just the hellchicken. A good AA fire mode for Obliterators and/or the Forgefiend that doesn't invalidate the ground-fire loadout. Chaos Land Raider variants instead of just the bad one. Drop Pods. More loadout versatility within Cultists, possibly chaos priest/lesser sorcerer/chaos champion options for their squad leader slot to let them operate as just the one squad, possibly more different sorts of guns. More interesting options for Renegade Inquisitors in the Inquisition rules.

 J3f wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

For those too lazy to click the link:

Angels of Death
Any unit containing at least one model that possesses this special rule automatically passes fear tests. Furthermore, if a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught by a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but instead fall-back. The victorious unit may then consolidate as normal.

- - - -

I've never liked the idea of CSM being able to get swept or become helpless children in the face of fear USR causing creatures- they're still Space Marines after all. However I wanted to keep in tact the idea that CSM are much more self-serving then Space Marines and far less self-sacrificing. Thus, they can still be pinned or run off the board, to showcase their willingness to abandon a cause if they don't think the reward is worth the risk.

Chaos Space Marines shouldn't be any more fearless than Horus Heresy era marines. ATSKNF is the edge 40k marines have over 30k marines. Chaos Space Marines don't receive the intense mental conditioning that Loyalists receive.

Instead I'd just lift the Legiones Astartes rule from Horus Heresy and add in Stubborn like unlisted legiones get.

Chaos Astartes: Units with this Special Rule may always attempt to regroup normally regardless of casualties and have the Stubborn special rule.

I'd also give Chaos Space Marines Marks for free (except Nurgle, that can be 2 ppm).

Here's my Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have may reroll 1 Leadership test per turn and have the Adamantium Will Special Rule.

I'd be very ok if loyalist ATSKNF were changed to this (Legiones Astartes auto-rally), and then they and everyone else could play the leadership portion of the game more or less as it is intended in the several pages in the rulebook devoted to it.

I don't mean to be weird or anything.

J3f wrote:Instead of giving Marines layered save (3+/5++/5+FNP), I'd instead rebalance the game to make it harder to take AP2 (and some AP3) weapons in mass. Plasma Pistols and Plasma Guns can AP3, Plasma Cannons and Larger can remain AP2. IG Veterans and similar units can take fewer Special weapons per squad, Riptide Weapons are nerfed, etc.

Everything is rebalanced points wise so that Plasma and similar weapons don't stop being viable.

Space Marines return to what they are meant to be an expensive strike force that don't need no cover. 15 point Tactical Marines that can charge straight into enemy forces without having fight a battle of inches in a trench warfare style movement.

Layered saves have some implications other than toughness. For example, the choice of single-wound-character wargear becomes less silly, because Unwieldy weapons are less of a risk against power swords, and s8 power fists have an additional appeal against fnp models. You also see substitution toward s8 weapons and away from plasma guns.

It's interesting that you would change plasma to ap3, which is no direct difference for PA chaos marines, but I suppose you hope would lower the appeal of plasma relative to melta, flamer, grenade launcher, missile pod, and the other competition with plasma.

jamopower wrote:I think the problem is built in to the game. Elite marines are almost exclusively bad in the game. They cost more, but are still too easyto kill. Even the tactical marines witht their superior skills feel little meh on the tabletop.

I think the problem lies in the armour save and cover mechanics, as marines don't get too much benefit from cover compared to the cheap 5+/6+ save infantry. Also ap2 weapons are so common that marines often don't benefit too much of their good save. (On the other hand, ap3 weaponry is mostly pretty bad, as they're expensive and commonly just reduce the save to 4+ Cover.

With these rules i think the basic chaos marine could cost maybe 9-10 points to be "viable". However that goes against the fluff and would be ridicilous. Therefore i would up the ws and bs for all marines to 5 and add feel no pain as standard. Those with feel no pain already on their profile, should get a 4+ fnp. Also bolters should be little bit more dangerous, clumsy shootas have the same killing power (as the ap 5 is rarely very useful).

Then after these upgrades , I would give chaos marines some free veteran skills from their eternal war experience along the lines of chapter tactics. As it's chaos, all units could have different skills. That would balance the comparision between the atsknf marines and their fallen counterparts, making the chaos marines more customisable. Also these veteran skills would give te opportinity for people to theme their armies to a certain legion with suitable skills for each of them.

For an aside first, orks always used bolt guns, it was just that Andy Chambers made the base weapons of all the armies different for the sake of being different - orks had also been bs3, but it was too much like guardsmen/guardians, so they became a close combat army for two editions and still mostly are, and eldar had primarily used las guns & las pistols, but since guard used lasguns GW remade an entire line so that aspect warriors could have different pistols.

bs5 has some problems. One is that at bs4, you know there is some chance your first shot or your first shooting unit isn't going to get the job done, so you have to plan for a backup unit. At bs5, that backup unit will almost always be unnecessary, but when you miss with bs5, it's still a miss. So going from bs4 to bs5 on your basic units is of questionable value. Another is that there really isn't anything better. The thing that I like is PA grants abilities, for example First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire but for bolt guns. There's something cool.

ws5 has all kinds of problems, because the stock chaos marine is not more skilled than an aspect warrior, not sufficiently more skilled than an ork nob, and also plays all kinds of hell with the character models in every single army. Maybe if you wanted to demote basic guardsmen, ork boyz, gaunts, guardians, and tau by one point of WS, you'd get more of what you want. Nobs, guard officers, guard vets, sisters, and all the characters from all the armies would be slightly buffed along with the basic marines.

FNP has a few good points as above. You also have to consider that DE have it very widely available, and that a lot of ork players would like to get rid of their 6+ armor save entirely and get a 6+ FNP instead, to get saves against shooting. With space marines getting it, you could start to think of it as a regular part of the game instead of a "special" rule. Low ap values would be displaced a little bit by strength 8+ weapons, which would add a little bit of challenge to the "how many plasma guns can I get" army.

If you are going to buff marines, like giving marines a 5+ save against guns made for killing marines, or like giving them bs5 or rapid fire+1 to their bs4 s4 guns, you have to go to a 4+ armor save, or a 4+ save with +1 to rolls. You have to take some kind of hit. It's also very specifically important to Chaos armies, because you have Chosen who have been blessed by the dark gods, and Berzerkers whose main problem is that they are hard to get into close combat and have always had Chaos armor in the fluff, and both very much need an improved armor, but they can't get chaos armor as long as the only thing better than power armor is a 2+.

When you give basic marines 4+, you can give Chosen and Berzerkers 3+/6++, and you can give them all 5+ FNP, and you can give them good bonuses for shooting. I know everyone is already saying that's wrong, that's being a little hasty, harble barble barble. Maybe it's way better for gameplay, it pays for itself, it isn't particularly less good against ap4 since 4+ cover and a 5+ FNP is very similar to a 3+, it's way more powerful due to giving you a save against anything shy of a battle cannon, and playing marines makes you loss averse so your judgement as far as giving something up is compromised.

AnomanderRake wrote:Chaos Land Raider variants instead of just the bad one.

If this Land Raider is so bad, why not get rid of it completely, and replace it with something good? Also, which one is "the bad one?" Is it the one that many thousands of people already own? Is it the one that has appeared in the background as an ultimate weapon system that fights entire wars by itself?

that's innovative x1,000,000

pelicaniforce wrote:

I'd be very ok if loyalist ATSKNF were changed to this (Legiones Astartes auto-rally), and then they and everyone else could play the leadership portion of the game more or less as it is intended in the several pages in the rulebook devoted to it.

I don't mean to be weird or anything.

J3f wrote:Instead of giving Marines layered save (3+/5++/5+FNP), I'd instead rebalance the game to make it harder to take AP2 (and some AP3) weapons in mass. Plasma Pistols and Plasma Guns can AP3, Plasma Cannons and Larger can remain AP2. IG Veterans and similar units can take fewer Special weapons per squad, Riptide Weapons are nerfed, etc.

Everything is rebalanced points wise so that Plasma and similar weapons don't stop being viable.

Space Marines return to what they are meant to be an expensive strike force that don't need no cover. 15 point Tactical Marines that can charge straight into enemy forces without having fight a battle of inches in a trench warfare style movement.

Layered saves have some implications other than toughness. For example, the choice of single-wound-character wargear becomes less silly, because Unwieldy weapons are less of a risk against power swords, and s8 power fists have an additional appeal against fnp models. You also see substitution toward s8 weapons and away from plasma guns.

It's interesting that you would change plasma to ap3, which is no direct difference for PA chaos marines, but I suppose you hope would lower the appeal of plasma relative to melta, flamer, grenade launcher, missile pod, and the other competition with plasma.

Loyalist Space Marines are meant to be someone what brain dead. They're point and click and you can rely on them to do alright in any situation. This includes not having to worry about them collapsing in the Assault phase. They don't need to participate in Morale checks because they pay a lot of points for all that indoctrination and ease of use on the tabletop. Of course they still require a lot of skill, but being able to do what they want when they want to is one of their major selling points.

I'm also simultaneously balancing Terminators, so cutting down on the AP2 really helps them and AP4 Plasma Guns make no sense.

pelicanforce wrote:

jamopower wrote:I think the problem is built in to the game. Elite marines are almost exclusively bad in the game. They cost more, but are still too easyto kill. Even the tactical marines witht their superior skills feel little meh on the tabletop.

I think the problem lies in the armour save and cover mechanics, as marines don't get too much benefit from cover compared to the cheap 5+/6+ save infantry. Also ap2 weapons are so common that marines often don't benefit too much of their good save. (On the other hand, ap3 weaponry is mostly pretty bad, as they're expensive and commonly just reduce the save to 4+ Cover.

With these rules i think the basic chaos marine could cost maybe 9-10 points to be "viable". However that goes against the fluff and would be ridicilous. Therefore i would up the ws and bs for all marines to 5 and add feel no pain as standard. Those with feel no pain already on their profile, should get a 4+ fnp. Also bolters should be little bit more dangerous, clumsy shootas have the same killing power (as the ap 5 is rarely very useful).

Then after these upgrades , I would give chaos marines some free veteran skills from their eternal war experience along the lines of chapter tactics. As it's chaos, all units could have different skills. That would balance the comparision between the atsknf marines and their fallen counterparts, making the chaos marines more customisable. Also these veteran skills would give te opportinity for people to theme their armies to a certain legion with suitable skills for each of them.

For an aside first, orks always used bolt guns, it was just that Andy Chambers made the base weapons of all the armies different for the sake of being different - orks had also been bs3, but it was too much like guardsmen/guardians, so they became a close combat army for two editions and still mostly are, and eldar had primarily used las guns & las pistols, but since guard used lasguns GW remade an entire line so that aspect warriors could have different pistols.

bs5 has some problems. One is that at bs4, you know there is some chance your first shot or your first shooting unit isn't going to get the job done, so you have to plan for a backup unit. At bs5, that backup unit will almost always be unnecessary, but when you miss with bs5, it's still a miss. So going from bs4 to bs5 on your basic units is of questionable value. Another is that there really isn't anything better. The thing that I like is PA grants abilities, for example First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire but for bolt guns. There's something cool.

ws5 has all kinds of problems, because the stock chaos marine is not more skilled than an aspect warrior, not sufficiently more skilled than an ork nob, and also plays all kinds of hell with the character models in every single army. Maybe if you wanted to demote basic guardsmen, ork boyz, gaunts, guardians, and tau by one point of WS, you'd get more of what you want. Nobs, guard officers, guard vets, sisters, and all the characters from all the armies would be slightly buffed along with the basic marines.

FNP has a few good points as above. You also have to consider that DE have it very widely available, and that a lot of ork players would like to get rid of their 6+ armor save entirely and get a 6+ FNP instead, to get saves against shooting. With space marines getting it, you could start to think of it as a regular part of the game instead of a "special" rule. Low ap values would be displaced a little bit by strength 8+ weapons, which would add a little bit of challenge to the "how many plasma guns can I get" army.

If you are going to buff marines, like giving marines a 5+ save against guns made for killing marines, or like giving them bs5 or rapid fire+1 to their bs4 s4 guns, you have to go to a 4+ armor save, or a 4+ save with +1 to rolls. You have to take some kind of hit. It's also very specifically important to Chaos armies, because you have Chosen who have been blessed by the dark gods, and Berzerkers whose main problem is that they are hard to get into close combat and have always had Chaos armor in the fluff, and both very much need an improved armor, but they can't get chaos armor as long as the only thing better than power armor is a 2+.

When you give basic marines 4+, you can give Chosen and Berzerkers 3+/6++, and you can give them all 5+ FNP, and you can give them good bonuses for shooting. I know everyone is already saying that's wrong, that's being a little hasty, harble barble barble. Maybe it's way better for gameplay, it pays for itself, it isn't particularly less good against ap4 since 4+ cover and a 5+ FNP is very similar to a 3+, it's way more powerful due to giving you a save against anything shy of a battle cannon, and playing marines makes you loss averse so your judgement as far as giving something up is compromised.

I would just rise their points cost when making them at the same time worth this points increase. This would make them appear to be more elite than the most basic cannon fodder in the game as they're now (after all, everything is commonly compared to its value on killing marines). Also aspect warriors coul as well have ws/bs 5 (and upgraded points cost) to make them actually more skilful in the arts of war than the basic guardian militia. But it's not this easy as te problem is more built in the basic rules. The cover being a separate save impacts heavily on the actual worth of having an armour save (and also combined with cheap infantry, makes the "ignores cover" weapons necessiary). Also the hitting mechanism being a flat value without any modifiers causes the bs to be a stat that could as well have four different possible values instead of ten (plus the bs1 for snap shots).
With these basic rules, the only routeto make something better or more elite is to either drop the cost, which has its limits, or add more special rules, making the game more clunkier and model intensive, thus also slower.

If I were to fix the chaos marines, i would change the basic rules of the game to be more flexible statwise which would allow to make the units more different just by changing the statlines, without having to add an exhaustive list of special exceptions to the rules. Of course I wouldn't remove the special rules totally from the game, but having less of them would actually make them much more special.

If marines became as epic as they are in the fluff, then what of the things that are better than marines? They would be un-killable! It would make the game so boring if nothing ever kills anything.

Ashiraya wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Troop CSM BS3 Ld7, 10 points per.

You're generalising immensely. Chaos Space Marines can be anything from low-quality hot-housed bodies (Like the Iron Warriors from Dead Sky, Black Sun) or they can, thanks to the gifts of Chaos and/or the skill of their creators, be superior to loyalist Marines right from the start. Many of them are also recent renegades who are practically identical to normal SM except for their allegiance.

Blaxican's suggestion is far more all-purpose and therefore better.

Definitionally, you are generalizing. One profile, that "is far more all-purpose and therefore better," is generalized to represent all of the things you have listed.

I am specifying.

I have said that champions are ws5, bs4, ld10, that chosen at ws4 bs4 a2 ld9 wear chaos armor and are troops, and that chaos marines are ws4 bs3 ld7. Havocs and bikers are yet different.

Loyalists, not recent-renegade but actual loyalist chapters, are institutional. You have one-wound, marine-profile techmarines walking around secure in the knowledge that they are ordered to be where they are, and that other units will cooperate with and assist him. Captains are secure in knowing that they are placed by some other power in an executive position over a company that exists independently from their leadership, and that they will be supplied with personnel from the recruiting pool at a given rate and up to a given amount. Marines follow sergeants who are their erstwhile peers, simply because procedure requires that any unit of ten marines must have a point person appointed from among them to be an intermediary to higher offices. Jump-pack assault squads function as such because while they have little staying power, they will always be supported adequately since they are cogs in a larger machine.

In any organization other than a loyalist chapter, a Chaos marine worth his salt will accrue to himself power worth his abilities. If he is indeed talented, he may subjugate a squad-sized warband for himself as part of a greater horde, he may be awarded command of a squad by his task masters; if he is in a cohesive legion like the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers, or he may earn the blessings of the gods in a cult unit or as a chosen. Meanwhile, those squad-size subsidiary warbands whose leadership is contested by the minor champions cannot meet the standards of loyalist marines. Beyond uneven and unreliable geneseed practices and personal indiscipline, their leadership is too uneven to hold all troops to high standards. If you are a specialist of any kind, you will have a coterie of bodyguards or assistants, whether you are a techmarine, and apothecary, a sorceror, or a leader.

The journeyman, loyalist-quality infantry are hard to find. Only warbands that are disciplined enough to have multiple non-competing sub units will have that intermediate grade infantry, and those will come in the form defined-purpose units like havocs and bikers, at ws4 bs4 ld9. This is why you can have "heavy weapon" chaos marine squads in troops that have three heavy weapons but are unruly bs3 brutes with a mandatory ws5 champion keeping them in line, and proper havocs with bs4 and no mandatory champion, because professionalism is the most important quality in a soldier and not every chaos lord will manage to find that kind of troops.



You have

Chaos Marines (troops)
Champion ws5, ld10, mandatory and 45 points.
Chaos Marine ws4, bs3, ld7 - heavy/special at six models, additional heavy/special at ten models, third heavy/special at 13 models.
Rhino with options for havoc launcher, pintle heavy bolter
power armor is 4+ save, First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire
all at FNP 5+
Champion can have servo-arm and bolster defences, can have combat drug dispenser, can have thrall wizards.
no marks available or allowed
no dedicated drop pod

Chosen (troops)
Chosen are ws4, bs4, a2, ld9, champion optional
Chaos armor is 3+ save, 6+ invulnerable
still FNP 5+
"chaos weapons" - pandemic staff, axe of khorne, warp blade, etc
rhino ibid.
no marks available or allowed
icon - company standard and daemon homing beacon


Havoc
no mandatory champion
Havocs are ws4, bs4, a1, ld9
ultragrit
power armor 4+ save and FRF,SRF as chaos space marines
FNP
rhino ibid.


Bikers
bikers are as havocs
bikers may become Noise Marine Bikers or Berzerker Bikers


Chaos Drop Pods (fast attack)
1-3 drop pods


If you are talented, you are a champion, a chosen, or a cult marine. If you're unexceptional, you're a bs3 slob and dependent on a champion for all your ld checks. If by some miracle you are a surviving professional soldier, you are some kind of support unit because you believe in your army's lord and in the cause you serve.

Raptors are special hybridized marines from the heresy. It's hard for any chaos army to to coordinate a real "assault squad" jump pack unit.

Raptors
Raptors are ws4 bs4 a1 ld9
any raptor may exchange his weapons for lightning claws.
hit & run, stealth, jetpack/jetbike move.

J3f wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:

I'd be very ok if loyalist ATSKNF were changed to this (Legiones Astartes auto-rally), and then they and everyone else could play the leadership portion of the game more or less as it is intended in the several pages in the rulebook devoted to it.

I don't mean to be weird or anything.

J3f wrote:Instead of giving Marines layered save (3+/5++/5+FNP), I'd instead rebalance the game to make it harder to take AP2 (and some AP3) weapons in mass. Plasma Pistols and Plasma Guns can AP3, Plasma Cannons and Larger can remain AP2. IG Veterans and similar units can take fewer Special weapons per squad, Riptide Weapons are nerfed, etc.

Everything is rebalanced points wise so that Plasma and similar weapons don't stop being viable.

Space Marines return to what they are meant to be an expensive strike force that don't need no cover. 15 point Tactical Marines that can charge straight into enemy forces without having fight a battle of inches in a trench warfare style movement.

Layered saves have some implications other than toughness. For example, the choice of single-wound-character wargear becomes less silly, because Unwieldy weapons are less of a risk against power swords, and s8 power fists have an additional appeal against fnp models. You also see substitution toward s8 weapons and away from plasma guns.

It's interesting that you would change plasma to ap3, which is no direct difference for PA chaos marines, but I suppose you hope would lower the appeal of plasma relative to melta, flamer, grenade launcher, missile pod, and the other competition with plasma.

Loyalist Space Marines are meant to be someone what brain dead. They're point and click and you can rely on them to do alright in any situation. This includes not having to worry about them collapsing in the Assault phase. They don't need to participate in Morale checks because they pay a lot of points for all that indoctrination and ease of use on the tabletop. Of course they still require a lot of skill, but being able to do what they want when they want to is one of their major selling points.

I'm also simultaneously balancing Terminators, so cutting down on the AP2 really helps them and AP4 Plasma Guns make no sense.

Well then there is my point made for me. ATSKNF accomplishes a particular thing. The half-measures you give for shoring up chaos marines' leadership do not affect the identity of the army profoundly, they just soften you experience.

jamopower wrote:

pelicanforce wrote:

jamopower wrote:I think the problem is built in to the game. Elite marines are almost exclusively bad in the game. They cost more, but are still too easyto kill. Even the tactical marines witht their superior skills feel little meh on the tabletop.

I think the problem lies in the armour save and cover mechanics, as marines don't get too much benefit from cover compared to the cheap 5+/6+ save infantry. Also ap2 weapons are so common that marines often don't benefit too much of their good save. (On the other hand, ap3 weaponry is mostly pretty bad, as they're expensive and commonly just reduce the save to 4+ Cover.

With these rules i think the basic chaos marine could cost maybe 9-10 points to be "viable". However that goes against the fluff and would be ridicilous. Therefore i would up the ws and bs for all marines to 5 and add feel no pain as standard. Those with feel no pain already on their profile, should get a 4+ fnp. Also bolters should be little bit more dangerous, clumsy shootas have the same killing power (as the ap 5 is rarely very useful).

Then after these upgrades , I would give chaos marines some free veteran skills from their eternal war experience along the lines of chapter tactics. As it's chaos, all units could have different skills. That would balance the comparision between the atsknf marines and their fallen counterparts, making the chaos marines more customisable. Also these veteran skills would give te opportinity for people to theme their armies to a certain legion with suitable skills for each of them.

For an aside first, orks always used bolt guns, it was just that Andy Chambers made the base weapons of all the armies different for the sake of being different - orks had also been bs3, but it was too much like guardsmen/guardians, so they became a close combat army for two editions and still mostly are, and eldar had primarily used las guns & las pistols, but since guard used lasguns GW remade an entire line so that aspect warriors could have different pistols.

bs5 has some problems. One is that at bs4, you know there is some chance your first shot or your first shooting unit isn't going to get the job done, so you have to plan for a backup unit. At bs5, that backup unit will almost always be unnecessary, but when you miss with bs5, it's still a miss. So going from bs4 to bs5 on your basic units is of questionable value. Another is that there really isn't anything better. The thing that I like is PA grants abilities, for example First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire but for bolt guns. There's something cool.

ws5 has all kinds of problems, because the stock chaos marine is not more skilled than an aspect warrior, not sufficiently more skilled than an ork nob, and also plays all kinds of hell with the character models in every single army. Maybe if you wanted to demote basic guardsmen, ork boyz, gaunts, guardians, and tau by one point of WS, you'd get more of what you want. Nobs, guard officers, guard vets, sisters, and all the characters from all the armies would be slightly buffed along with the basic marines.

FNP has a few good points as above. You also have to consider that DE have it very widely available, and that a lot of ork players would like to get rid of their 6+ armor save entirely and get a 6+ FNP instead, to get saves against shooting. With space marines getting it, you could start to think of it as a regular part of the game instead of a "special" rule. Low ap values would be displaced a little bit by strength 8+ weapons, which would add a little bit of challenge to the "how many plasma guns can I get" army.

If you are going to buff marines, like giving marines a 5+ save against guns made for killing marines, or like giving them bs5 or rapid fire+1 to their bs4 s4 guns, you have to go to a 4+ armor save, or a 4+ save with +1 to rolls. You have to take some kind of hit. It's also very specifically important to Chaos armies, because you have Chosen who have been blessed by the dark gods, and Berzerkers whose main problem is that they are hard to get into close combat and have always had Chaos armor in the fluff, and both very much need an improved armor, but they can't get chaos armor as long as the only thing better than power armor is a 2+.

When you give basic marines 4+, you can give Chosen and Berzerkers 3+/6++, and you can give them all 5+ FNP, and you can give them good bonuses for shooting. I know everyone is already saying that's wrong, that's being a little hasty, harble barble barble. Maybe it's way better for gameplay, it pays for itself, it isn't particularly less good against ap4 since 4+ cover and a 5+ FNP is very similar to a 3+, it's way more powerful due to giving you a save against anything shy of a battle cannon, and playing marines makes you loss averse so your judgement as far as giving something up is compromised.

I would just rise their points cost when making them at the same time worth this points increase.

This makes the army very bad, because you reduce the number of units on the field. If you have only three squads, you can fight only three enemies. Additionally, the background says that there are only so many special weapons per squad. Even hitting on 2+, there is such a thing as too few meltaguns.

Also aspect warriors coul as well have ws/bs 5 (and upgraded points cost) to make them actually more skilful in the arts of war than the basic guardian militia.

Only aspect warriors? You can say an ork boy is less skilled than a basic tactical space marine, but a Nob? He may be at some disadvantage, but initiative 2 represents that well. Characters? Marine characters, farseers, autarchs? Have you heard that guardians have always been ws/bs/i 4, and their promotion to aspect level was ascribed to their inherent suitability to become or have been aspect warriors?

But it's not this easy as te problem is more built in the basic rules. The cover being a separate save impacts heavily on the actual worth of having an armour save (and also combined with cheap infantry, makes the "ignores cover" weapons necessiary). Also the hitting mechanism being a flat value without any modifiers causes the bs to be a stat that could as well have four different possible values instead of ten (plus the bs1 for snap shots).
With these basic rules, the only routeto make something better or more elite is to either drop the cost, which has its limits, or add more special rules, making the game more clunkier and model intensive, thus also slower.

There would always be four different possible rolls, excluding 6+. I suppose it is enough for you that while bs5 and bs7 would still hit normally on 2+, a bs5 model that moves and fires on a moving unit that is in cover would take a penalty and hit on 3+, but a model with bs7 taking the same penalty would still hit on 2+.

What were CSM players' reactions when the 6th edition codex came out?

 Quarterdime wrote:
What were CSM players' reactions when the 6th edition codex came out?

Like alwayz:
Before release and 1-st week - doom and gloom, mass suicides.
2-d week and later on - those who lived through the 1-st week try to actually play it and see that it's fine.

Tbf with what I've read about IA:13 plus hellbrute data slate plus cypher data slate, CSM are no where near in as poor a position as they were 6 months ago. Using any of the above 3 really has the ability to take away their glaring weaknesses.
For example they can now take 3 hades autocannons on artillery bases for 4 (12 for 3) st8 bs4 shots with 4 (12 for 3) t7 3+ wounds each. For 65pts (195pts for 3). That's phenomenal! That's the damage output (sans ap3) of THREE havoc squads with mls.
They also now have a sicaran for anti-serp and a typhon for a dirt cheap dangerous LOW.
When you look at the hellbrute data slate you can take 3 ds hellbrutes for 300pts - saving the cost of buying drop pods that basic marines have to (plue hellbrutes are 20pts cheaper anyway)!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and be'lakor...

 koooaei wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
What were CSM players' reactions when the 6th edition codex came out?

Like alwayz:
Before release and 1-st week - doom and gloom, mass suicides.
2-d week and later on - those who lived through the 1-st week try to actually play it and see that it's fine.

Utter garbage koo, the book came out and people thought it was bland and only slightly better than the last one, since then near enough every chaos player has lamented at how bad the book is at portraying chaos as a faction, and rightly so.

Yeh the CSM dex is utter pants both representation and competitive wise with poor internal balance. But it does seem with the 'outside' dex additions, chaos has a decent chance now.

to Formosa
Have you actually tried out something like 20 infiltrating fnp marines with Cypher? Or fearless cultists with a helbrute? You know, the game is not all about dragons and obliterators now. Kharn eliminates IK on the charge and provides 2+ DTW to the squad, etc.
Or you're just still in the gloomy doom submarine without a periscope?

Anywayz. Regular csm work as msu in rhinos, in a landraider as a retinue and 20-strong with infiltrate or outflank.

Im guessing you're not talking to me because remember, cypher and hellbrute formations are 'outside' dex options.
The main part of my CSM army is CSM squads themselves. Cypher + Huron is an excellent combo. Never tried out Kharn though.
The book alone is pretty poor compared to other dexes though. Very little internal and external balance.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Im guessing you're not talking to me because remember, cypher and hellbrute formations are 'outside' dex options.
The main part of my CSM army is CSM squads themselves. Cypher + Huron is an excellent combo. Never tried out Kharn though.
The book alone is pretty poor compared to other dexes though. Very little internal and external balance.

Yep, sorry for a reply without a name, fixed that. It was addressed to Formosa.

The initial codex has some great options too like the ever-present nurgle spawns + indeps. The formations bring lots of goodies, i agree with you.

And once again, i agree on the internal ballance stuff. It's not as abyssmal as internet depicts it, though. Regular marines in rhinos are fine. Even though, worse than the loyalists, but thanks to other factors like maulerfiends, heldrakes, potent mellee indeps and stuff like this, they can be used not less effectively for midboard controle. Yep, in vacuumhammer they loose to tacticals all day. But on tabletop there are many other factors including the overall theme of the army that affects how units perform.

But defilers, 1000 sons and warp talons could clearly use some help.

And Kharn is beastly if you can bring him into combat. That's the main problem, but both landraiders and a blob of cultists are fine for it. Especially in the current meta with IK being quite common. They ha hate wasting shots on chaff like cultists. But can't ignore them cause they know Kharn's gona wreck their face like no tomorrow.

Formations are introduced to actually get used and they synergise with the codexquite well.

Maybe give them something that promotes mono-god armies.

As in if all your models have the same mark you get a certain bonus depending on the god.

Not sure if this should be all models have to have it, or all models that are able to have it have to. (Maybe the first one and then making the bonus pretty good so its worth not taking helldrakes and fiends etc)

I always thought the answer was to make the army full of guys who were very powerful in an over the top way, but then have supplemental stuff in to even out the cost.

Here is my (probably terrible) idea.
- Chaos Marines become Veterans of the Long War, new unit that is basically heavily geared 2-wound marines stuck at 5-man unit max. Make them 25 points each like GKs, WS5 and BS5, combi-bolters, Pistol+CCW, etc.
- Separate unit: Renegade Marines. These guys are standard marines without ATSKNF and with Stubborn instead, price them at 13 or 14 each.
- All cult units get the same treatment: half the models, amp the stats, 2 wounds each. These guys survived the worst war in the galaxy and make their home in this game's version of hell, let's make them appropriate.


Either that or Legion Tactics (personally, I think EVERY army should have something like Chapter Tactics).

Also Chaos could really use some help in the HQ department. There is a lot of really bad internal balance there (Nurgle DP, Belakor are way gross...Sorceror, Warpsmith, and Lord on the other side).

 koooaei wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Im guessing you're not talking to me because remember, cypher and hellbrute formations are 'outside' dex options.
The main part of my CSM army is CSM squads themselves. Cypher + Huron is an excellent combo. Never tried out Kharn though.
The book alone is pretty poor compared to other dexes though. Very little internal and external balance.

Yep, sorry for a reply without a name, fixed that. It was addressed to Formosa.

The initial codex has some great options too like the ever-present nurgle spawns + indeps. The formations bring lots of goodies, i agree with you.

And once again, i agree on the internal ballance stuff. It's not as abyssmal as internet depicts it, though. Regular marines in rhinos are fine. Even though, worse than the loyalists, but thanks to other factors like maulerfiends, heldrakes, potent mellee indeps and stuff like this, they can be used not less effectively for midboard controle. Yep, in vacuumhammer they loose to tacticals all day. But on tabletop there are many other factors including the overall theme of the army that affects how units perform.

But defilers, 1000 sons and warp talons could clearly use some help.

And Kharn is beastly if you can bring him into combat. That's the main problem, but both landraiders and a blob of cultists are fine for it. Especially in the current meta with IK being quite common. They ha hate wasting shots on chaff like cultists. But can't ignore them cause they know Kharn's gona wreck their face like no tomorrow.

Formations are introduced to actually get used and they synergise with the codexquite well.

All fair and well made points, but we're still left with the "Basic" book that has clearly been written by people who don't actually know the faction.

Forces challenges. Khorne I could understand, possibly slaanesh, but all characters being forced... Stupid
eye of the gods. Should not exist, everything on that list should just have a points cost attached to it, this would make for very customizable chcharacters and variation.
dinibots. All are stupid, the rules are meh to ok, and the models are all terrible (I know some like them though and that's fine) they are not chaos, they are childish.

That's just a few idiotic things the chaos sex has vomited out, now I love playing my chaos (mono khorne) but every time I read that mess of a book I feel like I was robbed, yes it can win (who cares) and yes the internal /external balance is laughable (again, who cares) but it's bichest issue is its feel, it doesn't feel chaotic, it feels childish and... I don't know... Just bad, it's difficult to explain just exactly is wrong with the book, and I'm sure others have the same problem, or more accurately its difficult to START to explain what is wrong with it

I'm mostly ok with the current Chaos codex. I say "mostly" because it isn't Pete Haines, but it's far better than what came before.

That said, some simple tweaks perhaps:
-Cult Champions have 2 wounds each. Regular "Marked" soldiers don't.

Warpsmith: Instead of "Shatter Defenses", selects one of three different bonuses.
-Calculated Destruction: In place of shooting, nominate one Daemonforge Walker within 12" of the Daemonsmith. This vehicle may use the Warpsmith's (modified) WS and S in lieu of its own.
-Forgepack Alpha: Any Daemonforge Walker charging into a melee which the Warpsmith is part of gains Rage and +3 Charge movement.
-Heretek Calibration: May forfeit shooting to give his unit +6 Range on their shooting attacks.

Thousand Sons:
"The Sorcerer Commands:" While at least one Thousand Son is alive, all "Look Out Sir" rolls automatically succeed provided the hits are allocated to a Thousand Son.

Lore of Tzeentch:
-Tzeentch's Firestorm: Becomes a WC 2 Blessing, targeting the player's own unit. Ranged weapons gain +1 Strength
-Boon of Mutation: Range 12 "Blessing". Target a single non-vehicle friendly unit within 12". Roll on the Chaos Boons table, rerolling Dark Ascension and Bloated results. All models receive the bonus until the start of the controlling player's next turn. In the case of Spawnhood, replace the first available character, or a single non-character model.
-Doombolt: Unchanged
-Breath of Chaos: Torrent.

Possessed: The unit starts off with a Boon of Mutation. 25 points/model.

Chaos Raptors: Hit and Run.
Warp Talons: Hit and Run. 2 attacks base.

Defiler: Ability to fire its Battle Cannon without forcing everything else to Snapshot.

Vehicle Options:
-Forgefiends and Maulerfiends may take items from the chaos vehicle armory.

Anyway, I could go way further, but really, between giving Cult Champions a second wound and making Daemonforge walkers more tempting, I'm "mostly" ok with Chaos. Any larger changes would be part of rewritiing 40k itself :3