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Would then, they actually be tough enough to brave enemy fire? Obviously they'd need a price hike. Probably about 6 or more points - what do you think?

I think they'd be even more worthless than they are now. At 20 points, losing a marine to every Krak, Rokkit, Lascannon, Powerfist, etc in the game starts to hurt real bad. Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

 docdoom77 wrote:
I think they'd be even more worthless than they are now. At 20 points, losing a marine to every Krak, Rokkit, Lascannon, Powerfist, etc in the game starts to hurt real bad. Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

They would be twice as resilient to plasma and small arms fire though and shouldn't rockets be shooting at tanks?

Not if they'll ID marines. My crisis suits would suddenly have a lot of melta guns instead of plasma

I remember a certain codex writer saying something about an army with 2 wounds having something going for it and us all talking about how Thousand Sons were still gak.

It'd be impossible to keep track of the wounds.

NauticalKendall wrote:
Not if they'll ID marines. My crisis suits would suddenly have a lot of melta guns instead of plasma

Exactly. It would shift the meta for sure, but I'd rather have cheaper 1 wound marines than expensive 2 wound marines. Now, if we were talking 16-17 pt range.... that might be different. But 20 points. No thank you.

 ChazSexington wrote:
It'd be impossible to keep track of the wounds.

Wouldn't they more or less be shoot off 1 at a time with closest first rules?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
It'd be impossible to keep track of the wounds.

Wouldn't they more or less be shoot off 1 at a time with closest first rules?

If taking fire from multiple units, or on different turns, it would be an issue.

Closest first is the problem. During the shooting phase, a guy is left with one wound. They get charged in the assault phase. At one initiative step, the guy chooses a full wound marine in base as "the closest." He takes one wound. At another initiative step he chooses a different marine in base as closest, that guy takes a single wound. Next turn, a different guy is in front and becomes the closest. Maybe he takes a single wound. Over time a unit could have many marines with one wound.

It's not likely to get quite that complicated every time, but it sure can.

NauticalKendall wrote:
Not if they'll ID marines. My crisis suits would suddenly have a lot of melta guns instead of plasma

You could tailor lists to bring a lot of str 8 - true - it's not that difficult to do but this in turn would make bike 2 wounds as well. So you couldn't ID them.

Change back to 5th wound allocation rules (and be sure to account for the stupidity of bikenobz etc) and make these Tacticals 16-17ish ppm, and you have something better.

I think grabbing the problem on the other end would be a much better idea: make every special and heavy weapon cost double as now, and every unit that comes with a special or heavy weapon cost +50% of its base cost. You can spare the sub-par weapons (heavy bolter, grenade launcher, etc) though.

This would help assault (as shooting would become quite expensive in comparison), all the neglected character weapons (a 15pts plasma pistol is a deal when your other option is the 30pts plasma gun), and give quite a lot of survivability to everyone through the (roughly halved) firepower people can bring to the board.

Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

HA

I will use that in my sig, thank you very much.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Change back to 5th wound allocation rules (and be sure to account for the stupidity of bikenobz etc) and make these Tacticals 16-17ish ppm, and you have something better.

Now THAT is something I can get behind! I hate 7th wound allocation and crave simpler days.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I think grabbing the problem on the other end would be a much better idea: make every special and heavy weapon cost double as now, and every unit that comes with a special or heavy weapon cost +50% of its base cost. You can spare the sub-par weapons (heavy bolter, grenade launcher, etc) though.

This would help assault (as shooting would become quite expensive in comparison), all the neglected character weapons (a 15pts plasma pistol is a deal when your other option is the 30pts plasma gun), and give quite a lot of survivability to everyone through the (roughly halved) firepower people can bring to the board.

Or you'll see a return to barebones tact squads with tons of everything else. Upping the cost of Plasma Guns and such won't increase a tac marines survivabilty against, say, a Riptide or Exocrine.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Change back to 5th wound allocation rules (and be sure to account for the stupidity of bikenobz etc) and make these Tacticals 16-17ish ppm, and you have something better.

Now THAT is something I can get behind! I hate 7th wound allocation and crave simpler days.

I'm totally behind that one. 7th wound allocation is garbage.

Agreed. I think 2 wounds would be great, but not for the cost of a Melta Bomb. 16-17 would be the right amount, as you have more survivability, but can still be ID by a lot of weapons.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I think grabbing the problem on the other end would be a much better idea: make every special and heavy weapon cost double as now, and every unit that comes with a special or heavy weapon cost +50% of its base cost. You can spare the sub-par weapons (heavy bolter, grenade launcher, etc) though.

This would help assault (as shooting would become quite expensive in comparison), all the neglected character weapons (a 15pts plasma pistol is a deal when your other option is the 30pts plasma gun), and give quite a lot of survivability to everyone through the (roughly halved) firepower people can bring to the board.

I like where you are coming from with this idea but I fear it would just result in vehicle spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Agreed. I think 2 wounds would be great, but not for the cost of a Melta Bomb. 16-17 would be the right amount, as you have more survivability, but can still be ID by a lot of weapons.

I was figuring a wound should cost at least 5 points. A Gk paladin pays like 16 points for it.

Remember that the Paladin also recieves +1 WS, so it's not quite 16 points.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Remember that the Paladin also recieves +1 WS, so it's not quite 16 points.

right it's probably more like 10 because its on a 2+ save model so i thought 5-6+ for 3+ save modle seemed fair.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I like where you are coming from with this idea but I fear it would just result in vehicle spam.

With every vehicle costing +50% (as they are all weapon platforms), I don't think that anyone would spam them that much. And even if they do, heavy and special weapons would cost double for vehicles too. The same goes for the other heavy-hitters too, like the Riptide and the Exocrine. 270 points per one basic Riptide (probably more because the Riptide is undercosted - 220 without the increment and 330 for this scenario would be more realistic) would dry up the Tau army's points pool pretty quickly.

 Matthew wrote:

Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

HA

I will use that in my sig, thank you very much.

Explain the quote to me, please. Is it about melta spam?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I like where you are coming from with this idea but I fear it would just result in vehicle spam.

With every vehicle costing +50% (as they are all weapon platforms), I don't think that anyone would spam them that much. And even if they do, heavy and special weapons would cost double for vehicles too. The same goes for the other heavy-hitters too, like the Riptide and the Exocrine. 270 points per one basic Riptide (probably more because the Riptide is undercosted - 220 without the increment and 330 for this scenario would be more realistic) would dry up the Tau army's points pool pretty quickly.

Ahh, well if vehicles went up in price too it would just result in a lot of infantry spam. Now this would be a game marines would excel at. It would be a very different game though. I think it would be an okay house rule but most people have a lot of specialized modles and not too many infantry so this wouldn't gain much support. cept orks would love this lol.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

HA

I will use that in my sig, thank you very much.

Explain the quote to me, please. Is it about melta spam?

It is not. They took the common expression 'X is a bitch' and replaced the latter with 'Adepta Sororitas'.

Oh. That is bad. Sororitas are humans, not canine.

It took me a second to get the joke. of course, I dont refer to women using that term as it is degrading to them so it isnt all that funny.

Marines dont need two wounds. They may not be the current top cheese army but they are still more than competitive as they are. The issue is not the number of wounds. I feel that it is the use of the D6 system. It just does not allow for the differences in many of the "soldiers" in the armies of 40k. A D10, i think would be closer to what would be needed. This would allow greater spacing of the stats. While a guard might be toughness 3, a marine could be a toughness 5 and a ogryn toughness 6. As it is using the D6, You cant properly demonstrate the fluff in terms of the differences.
It goes beyond the unneeded extra wounds on a marine, it goes into the basic mechanics.

Besides, as someone else said, it would be a royal pain to keep track of wounds and would only lead to different issues with a different sort of spam.

I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.


My theorized true marine statline would look something like this.

Tactical Marine 20 pts

WS: 4 BS: 4 Str:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Night Vision

Terminators and Veterans would both gain +1WS, BS, and attack. Terminators would also gain a wound and +1T(and cost 55 pts each minimum)

No character would have fewer than 4 wounds.

Krak missiles would have a use, at least. But I think 2 W is too much.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.

If anything, they should hit the fluff with the nerfhammer IMHO. This heroic nonsense the Space Marines have now is not really in-line with the grimdark theme.