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Moved? Which dice did they use before?

There was a set of different dice for different type of weaponry. D10, D12 iirc.

Want to know something crazy? I just bought a plastic 5 man scout squad for 20 bucks- gonna put them in a storm. With a combi flamer and a melta bomb...this squad is gonna kill more and have more practical and tactical uses than a marine squad ever could. Sure I drop to a 4+ save but it just doesn't matter. The 3+ hardly offers any more protection. Let me tell you something. I loathe scouts. I want to use marines. They are cooler and supposed to be near impossible to kill - otherwise humanity would be fethed when their 1000 man elite armies were destroyed volleys from their enemies front line troops. I think 2 wounds would be a great solution. Chim on more and more about how anti tank weapons would easily kill them so it wouldn't help. You know whats already killing my marines without issue? Shuirkens, plasmas, just about any squad taking 30 shots at them (just about every shooting squad in the game can do this.) 2 wounds would double their effectiveness vs infantry and that's what needs to happen. Right now they are considered a suicide unit cause thats all they are good at. Thats not being generalist...thats being useless and overpriced.

 koooaei wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

I throw 50-60 dice on charge. On average. Sometimes 20-30, sometimes 100. d10 would be a bit too unwieldy to both store and use. That's one of the reasons GW moved to d6. It's perfectly fine in skirmish and small squads. But when youhave a possibility to have 30+ strong squads, it's becoming a problem.

My conscripts can relate to this. Also, FRFSRF on blobs..

 Zewrath wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

I throw 50-60 dice on charge. On average. Sometimes 20-30, sometimes 100. d10 would be a bit too unwieldy to both store and use. That's one of the reasons GW moved to d6. It's perfectly fine in skirmish and small squads. But when youhave a possibility to have 30+ strong squads, it's becoming a problem.

My conscripts can relate to this. Also, FRFSRF on blobs..

D6 has no issues that ca't be fixed by changing the existing stats on units...I don't understand why people keep pointing fingers at the dice. we already roll at least 2 series of dice sometimes as many as 5. If you had to go through more series of dice to kill a marine it would increase it's surivability. And no one would have to go buy more dice.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Codex: Space Marines has been renamed 'Codex: Bolter Dicks'.

Powered Codpiece is a new wargear option.
It has armorbane, for extra penetration.

Though dick is not the male version of bitch.
A bitch is not a reproductive organ.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with MEQ's isn't their wounds,.

The problem with them isn't any kind of weakness, what with them being the statistically best army as evidenced by tournaments since their most recent codex was released.

Oooh, Wave Serpents are scary, but the Marines still always win somehow?

I'd imagine that's due to drop pod lists with suicide grav and melta. Otherwise infinite daemons or invisible eldar infantry should take the cake as best army.

I doubt it, because suicide pods aren't that hot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

I throw 50-60 dice on charge. On average. Sometimes 20-30, sometimes 100. d10 would be a bit too unwieldy to both store and use. That's one of the reasons GW moved to d6. It's perfectly fine in skirmish and small squads. But when youhave a possibility to have 30+ strong squads, it's becoming a problem.

My conscripts can relate to this. Also, FRFSRF on blobs..

D6 has no issues that ca't be fixed by changing the existing stats on units...I don't understand why people keep pointing fingers at the dice. we already roll at least 2 series of dice sometimes as many as 5. If you had to go through more series of dice to kill a marine it would increase it's surivability. And no one would have to go buy more dice.

That's not true. D6 limits the range of playable stats in the game. People want differentiation, not just marines to be tougher. At least I do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Though dick is not the male version of bitch.
A bitch is not a reproductive organ.

It is almost an equivalent in the sense it is a gendered insult.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Though dick is not the male version of bitch.
A bitch is not a reproductive organ.

Minute of education on Dakka.

Bolter Bastards would be a closer male equivalent to Bolter Bitches.

I wouldn't be for this, myself. It won't solve the marine survivability much and it would make troops choices for other armies to be even more usess. In addition to the increaded amount of book keeping. I think 40k needs an entire rewrite to address it's balance issues including how easily marines die.

Martel732 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with MEQ's isn't their wounds,.

The problem with them isn't any kind of weakness, what with them being the statistically best army as evidenced by tournaments since their most recent codex was released.

Oooh, Wave Serpents are scary, but the Marines still always win somehow?

I'd imagine that's due to drop pod lists with suicide grav and melta. Otherwise infinite daemons or invisible eldar infantry should take the cake as best army.

I doubt it, because suicide pods aren't that hot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

I throw 50-60 dice on charge. On average. Sometimes 20-30, sometimes 100. d10 would be a bit too unwieldy to both store and use. That's one of the reasons GW moved to d6. It's perfectly fine in skirmish and small squads. But when youhave a possibility to have 30+ strong squads, it's becoming a problem.

My conscripts can relate to this. Also, FRFSRF on blobs..

D6 has no issues that ca't be fixed by changing the existing stats on units...I don't understand why people keep pointing fingers at the dice. we already roll at least 2 series of dice sometimes as many as 5. If you had to go through more series of dice to kill a marine it would increase it's surivability. And no one would have to go buy more dice.

That's not true. D6 limits the range of playable stats in the game. People want differentiation, not just marines to be tougher. At least I do.

A nearly all drop pod Ultramarine army with lots of grav has a tendency to demolish Tau or Eldar, as it mitigates their range advantage, or removes it completely.

I brought up the D10 system early on in the thread and have been advocating it for years. The only 'unwieldy" aspect would be packaging of the dice. Little cubes are easier to put into bigger cubes and set nicely on a shelf. Once bought and emptied into the dice bag, they would take up no more space and be just as easy to roll (you would actually have LESS problem with cocked dice when rolling).

I meant range of stats, not range of weapons. Drop lists get you close for a single turn.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Bolter Bastards would be a closer male equivalent to Bolter Bitches.

Bastard is not a gendered insult. Both men and women can be born out of wedlock.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Bolter Bastards would be a closer male equivalent to Bolter Bitches.

Bastard is not a gendered insult. Both men and women can be born out of wedlock.

However it's a bigger insult for men though.

Bastard male children aren't heirs after all unless everyone else is dead.

Well, bastard female children are not heirs either!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, bastard female children are not heirs either!

But women traditionally weren't heirs at all. Especially at Europe, excluding some rare exceptions, they're to be used to unite another house so the Franks will think twice before declaring war.

But historically, "bastard" is incredibly damaging to male heirs.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, bastard female children are not heirs either!

But women traditionally weren't heirs at all. Especially at Europe, excluding some rare exceptions, they're to be used to unite another house so the Franks will think twice before declaring war.

But historically, "bastard" is incredibly damaging to male heirs.

but not insurmountable. *looks at William the Conquerer*

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, bastard female children are not heirs either!

But women traditionally weren't heirs at all. Especially at Europe, excluding some rare exceptions, they're to be used to unite another house so the Franks will think twice before declaring war.

But historically, "bastard" is incredibly damaging to male heirs.

but not insurmountable. *looks at William the Conquerer*

True, but it helps when you've got a large army. But Count Nobody-Remembers who lacked any political power being officially labeled a bastard is never touching the throne of his respective land.

 redrooster148 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

i wouldn't put it past GW to try to copywrite a D10

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Bolter Bastards would be a closer male equivalent to Bolter Bitches.

Bastard is not a gendered insult. Both men and women can be born out of wedlock.

However it's a bigger insult for men though.

Bastard male children aren't heirs after all unless everyone else is dead.

So why don't we use the equivalent for men then. Bitch is a female dog. A Stud is a male dog. Terms often used when breeding. So, Bolder Studs. Not as humorous but...

It's humorous if you give them bolt-codpieces.

In the Thousand Sons fan codex I've been working on, anything that isn't a vehicle or a psyker has 2 wounds, and I've had mixed results with it.

The under-the-hood cost I've given that extra wound is 10 points, and it comes with a rule similar to servitor lock. Assuming you kit out your Rubricae to be similar to CSM Thousand Sons, you wind up with a very pricey model.

So far, playtesting has shown that the army *is* very limited in what it can do offensively. Your whole army typically gets bogged down dealing with whatever your opponent's main push is while the rest of his army is free to deal with objectives. However, my 2 wound rubricae *are* extremely durable. Part of this is the 4+ save they're packing, but the two wounds work pretty much the way I'd hoped. Keeping track of wounds isn't as difficult as you might think. If a model has a wound token next to it, it has taken one of its two wounds. If there's no token, it's at full health.

So in other words, I think the two wound thing is more feasible and wieldy than some posters have suggested, but the increase in points is definitely felt.

Again, I don't think two wounds will help Marines. Not at 4 toughness with S8 everywhere. I want to run Nobz a lot more than I can because they die far too easily without their second wound even coming into play. 1 wound Marines would be more than fine if the state of the game was a bit less...explodey.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Want to know something crazy? I just bought a plastic 5 man scout squad for 20 bucks- gonna put them in a storm. With a combi flamer and a melta bomb...this squad is gonna kill more and have more practical and tactical uses than a marine squad ever could. Sure I drop to a 4+ save but it just doesn't matter. The 3+ hardly offers any more protection. Let me tell you something. I loathe scouts. I want to use marines. They are cooler and supposed to be near impossible to kill - otherwise humanity would be fethed when their 1000 man elite armies were destroyed volleys from their enemies front line troops. I think 2 wounds would be a great solution. Chim on more and more about how anti tank weapons would easily kill them so it wouldn't help. You know whats already killing my marines without issue? Shuirkens, plasmas, just about any squad taking 30 shots at them (just about every shooting squad in the game can do this.) 2 wounds would double their effectiveness vs infantry and that's what needs to happen. Right now they are considered a suicide unit cause thats all they are good at. Thats not being generalist...thats being useless and overpriced.

I still agree on this. I'm not sure about points wise, but I think 18 ppm would be probably the best suited, because they can still be easily ID'ed by most weapons, so I'd be hesitant to go more then a 4 point upgrade.

18 ppm is still too low. The SM stat line is far superior to that of the standard Crisis battlesuit, and the space marine is already fully equipped. A Crisis battle suit is more or less a two wound space marine with lower combat abilities traded out for a little bit of extra mobility, no grenades, and zero weapons at a cost of 22 ppm. The only difference from there is that a Crisis Suit squad can then equip special weapons on every model, but that then takes their cost to between 35 to 60 ppm. Where a melta toting space marine would be roughly 30 ppm with 2 wounds.

Changing the wounds characteristic on a standard space marine would still require a full rebalance of the game which it needs now. I have to say I've been in the change to d10s boat for a long time myself. While I understand the argument that it would be a little more cumbersome, but after playing 4 or 5 games everyone would be getting use to it and the complaints would begin to fade just like they do with every new edition of the game. Sure you'll have the people who whine about the old days, just like we do now, and you'll have the people who say they are going to quit, just like they do now, but in the end it will all work out and it will IMHO help balance out a system that already uses stats numbered 1-10.

Noc

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Bolter Bastards would be a closer male equivalent to Bolter Bitches.

Bastard is not a gendered insult. Both men and women can be born out of wedlock.

However it's a bigger insult for men though.

Bastard male children aren't heirs after all unless everyone else is dead.

Good lord you two, let it go. This is Page 4.

This argument gets tossed into a nice giant bag of "Nobody fething cares" and you're once again cluttering up this forum with horsegak.



Back on topic, if you wanted to have tougher Space Marines that fit in closer with the fluff, a supplemental Feel No Pain or I'll Be Back-style save (perhaps 5+?) seems more apt to fit that bill than a second wound. Would better reflect their ability to shrug off wounds.

Nocturus wrote:
18 ppm is still too low. The SM stat line is far superior to that of the standard Crisis battlesuit, and the space marine is already fully equipped. A Crisis battle suit is more or less a two wound space marine with lower combat abilities traded out for a little bit of extra mobility, no grenades, and zero weapons at a cost of 22 ppm. The only difference from there is that a Crisis Suit squad can then equip special weapons on every model, but that then takes their cost to between 35 to 60 ppm. Where a melta toting space marine would be roughly 30 ppm with 2 wounds.

Changing the wounds characteristic on a standard space marine would still require a full rebalance of the game which it needs now. I have to say I've been in the change to d10s boat for a long time myself. While I understand the argument that it would be a little more cumbersome, but after playing 4 or 5 games everyone would be getting use to it and the complaints would begin to fade just like they do with every new edition of the game. Sure you'll have the people who whine about the old days, just like we do now, and you'll have the people who say they are going to quit, just like they do now, but in the end it will all work out and it will IMHO help balance out a system that already uses stats numbered 1-10.

Noc

Crisis Suits also have more survivability, deep strike, and jump moves. Crisis Suits are way more deadly than marines and about the same in CC.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
18 ppm is still too low. The SM stat line is far superior to that of the standard Crisis battlesuit, and the space marine is already fully equipped. A Crisis battle suit is more or less a two wound space marine with lower combat abilities traded out for a little bit of extra mobility, no grenades, and zero weapons at a cost of 22 ppm. The only difference from there is that a Crisis Suit squad can then equip special weapons on every model, but that then takes their cost to between 35 to 60 ppm. Where a melta toting space marine would be roughly 30 ppm with 2 wounds.

Changing the wounds characteristic on a standard space marine would still require a full rebalance of the game which it needs now. I have to say I've been in the change to d10s boat for a long time myself. While I understand the argument that it would be a little more cumbersome, but after playing 4 or 5 games everyone would be getting use to it and the complaints would begin to fade just like they do with every new edition of the game. Sure you'll have the people who whine about the old days, just like we do now, and you'll have the people who say they are going to quit, just like they do now, but in the end it will all work out and it will IMHO help balance out a system that already uses stats numbered 1-10.

Noc

Crisis Suits also have more survivability, deep strike, and jump moves. Crisis Suits are way more deadly than marines and about the same in CC.

Jump moves are not reliable, dice determine how much you get, their deep strike is only reliable if you take farsight or luck out and roll the warlord trait that gives you no scatter deep strike, as for survivability they are the same T4 2W model that you yourself said was too easy to ID.

I agree that good rolls on jump moves can make them extremly survivable. However, a bad roll loses a 150 to 200 pt unit.

I agree being able to deep strike them can prove pivital. However, please take into account that for 35 points any tac squad gains the ability to deep strike WITHOUT THE CHANCE OF MISHAP, and it is objective secured so cannot be ignored.

As for being about equal in CC, I fully disagree. Crisis suits have the minor advantage of being S5 and can be a little more effective against vehicles, but from there the advantage goes to the marine. The marine cannot get overrun (CSM not being talked about here), the marine has the ability to be S6 if needed, and the only similarity is both being a 3+ save. The marine squad has the ability to bring dedicated CC weapons if they chose too. Meaning they can bypass the 3+ save of the crisis suit by taking a power weapon of some sort, and even gain the ability to ID Crisis Suits if they take a PF.

With all that being said, 18 ppm 2W marines ARE too cheap, 22ppm bare bones no guns/upgrades Crisis Suits are fairly well priced, but the real problem is the d6 does not allow enough diversity to encompace these two units. If you put a d10 in its place you will find a far more easily balanced game. It WOULD require most units to be restated and the definition of a weak armour save would have to change, but a lot of them could stay the same. Want to make those SM be suriviable with a d10? Let them keep their 3+ armour. However, in that world the crisis suit deserves to be bumped to a 4+. Still greater than a 50% chance to save considering you now a d10 instead of d6, but it makes a distinction between the two of them. Don't change the stats on the guns either doing this. Plasma should still eat power armour for breakfast, melta should still leave smoking holes in terminators, but imagine how much more effective that 5+ invuln save on termies would be if you were rolling a d10? What about that 2+ armour save against massed pulse fire if you only had a 1 in 10 chance of failing vs your current 1 in 6? The problem finding a solution to a lot of 40ks problems is everyone tries to fix it by thinking inside the bounds of the current rules. If you want to fix it take one step outside your comfort zone and think outside the box. Change one major mechanic and fix ALL the problems instead of changing 50 rules to keep one mechanic.

Noc