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A 16-17 point 2W Marine would be absurd...

An Ork Nob with heavy armour, in comparison, sports a much worse statline (with the exception of attacks) for 22 points.

Wait. would this mean attack bikes get 4 wounds?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
It'd be impossible to keep track of the wounds.

Wouldn't they more or less be shoot off 1 at a time with closest first rules?

Then the next turn, which marines have 1 wound left etc.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

HA

I will use that in my sig, thank you very much.

Explain the quote to me, please. Is it about melta spam?

Ahem, Adepta Sororitas... It's a word that can be used as a substitute for... Female Dog.

 King Pariah wrote:
Wait. would this mean attack bikes get 4 wounds?

This would indeed be absurd. Attack bikes would instantly become the best unit in the game with 4 W relentless multi meltas. Attack bikes used to just be 1w 2+ save. I think 2W 2+ save would be fine if points were adjusted properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a further note I was never suggesting the sisters get 2 wounds. They are not genitically modified and enhanced with machines and such. They should remain what they - special weapons users with 3+ saves for a cheap price.

I would hug my Earthshakers even tighter, probably breaking them.

And anyone with hotshot lasguns would cry.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I would hug my Earthshakers even tighter, probably breaking them.

And anyone with hotshot lasguns would cry.

Basilisks already ruin marines. They don't live long enough to get them out of their transport though.

That's why I said I will hug mine even more, as they'd be even more useful.

As for survivability, Earthshaker Carriages are T7 4W 3+ with 4 crewmen to be used as cannon fodder. They're going to be fine.

Tankbustaz? More like Beakiebustaz!

 Matthew wrote:
Ahem, Adepta Sororitas... It's a word that can be used as a substitute for... Female Dog.

Not it is not.

Marines already have abysmal damage output for their points. With a price hike and 2w they would become the army that everyone loves to beat up on: they don't have the firepower to kill your army, and your army gets to try out all their toys without worrying about dying.

I'd rather see bolter rounds buffed, knives on everybody to give minimum 2 cc attacks if they have a pistol, and rending chainswords.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Marines already have abysmal damage output for their points. With a price hike and 2w they would become the army that everyone loves to beat up on: they don't have the firepower to kill your army, and your army gets to try out all their toys without worrying about dying.

Not true, people will always prefer to watch Tau die.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Ahem, Adepta Sororitas... It's a word that can be used as a substitute for... Female Dog.

Not it is not.

Have you ever hear the saying... Bolter ?

Codex: Space Marines has been renamed 'Codex: Bolter Dicks'.

That would be an interesting move. I am just wondering about Codex: Blood Dicks!

There is no universe in which this would be viewed as a favorable decision.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

I see what you did there. And having been ID'd by S6 my Sisters would agree.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Codex: Space Marines has been renamed 'Codex: Bolter Dicks'.

Sold!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Marines already have abysmal damage output for their points. With a price hike and 2w they would become the army that everyone loves to beat up on: they don't have the firepower to kill your army, and your army gets to try out all their toys without worrying about dying.

Not true, people will always prefer to watch Tau die.

Pretty much. Of any army, it's a tie between Tau and Eldar on who I like to see die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Marines already have abysmal damage output for their points. With a price hike and 2w they would become the army that everyone loves to beat up on: they don't have the firepower to kill your army, and your army gets to try out all their toys without worrying about dying.

I'd rather see bolter rounds buffed, knives on everybody to give minimum 2 cc attacks if they have a pistol, and rending chainswords.

Attack buff would be fine, but the extra wound is not to help them kill. It would be so you can take 2 or 3 tac squads in a Rhino and they'd actually survive long enough to hold an objective without getting shot to

I think feel no pain would have a similar effect to two wounds (being negated by the same thing), would increase overall survivability and would cause far fewer problems.

So, my suggestion for tougher marines is Feel No Pain.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Would then, they actually be tough enough to brave enemy fire? Obviously they'd need a price hike. Probably about 6 or more points - what do you think?

Look how badly Nobz are regarded. Even Mega Nobz. 2 wounds a piece, but they WILL die to a well placed S8 shot, two wounds or no. The issue isn't Marines, or Nobz. It's the easy and abundant access to Tank busting weaponry that armies can load up on with little to no worry.

 docdoom77 wrote:
I think feel no pain would have a similar effect to two wounds (being negated by the same thing), would increase overall survivability and would cause far fewer problems.

So, my suggestion for tougher marines is Feel No Pain.

What about Apothecaries?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Change back to 5th wound allocation rules (and be sure to account for the stupidity of bikenobz etc) and make these Tacticals 16-17ish ppm, and you have something better.

What you of course meant to say was change it back to 4th edition, were you were forced to allocated your wounds on a model who already suffered a wound. I never understood why they changed that in 5th, allowing biker nobz and other stupid things to exist.

As for this topic: what would happen is that bike marines would be even more overused and spammed, since the gap between tactical squads and bikes would be even larger. The marines have issues, but defense isn't one of them. Sure, there is a lot of low AP flying around in these newer editions but it's offensive capabilities normal marines truly lack, not more wounds and certainly not an increase in points.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I think feel no pain would have a similar effect to two wounds (being negated by the same thing), would increase overall survivability and would cause far fewer problems.

So, my suggestion for tougher marines is Feel No Pain.

What about Apothecaries?

Just change it to a +1 to FNP rolls. Done.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I think feel no pain would have a similar effect to two wounds (being negated by the same thing), would increase overall survivability and would cause far fewer problems.

So, my suggestion for tougher marines is Feel No Pain.

What about Apothecaries?

Just change it to a +1 to FNP rolls. Done.

I was would suggest re-roll FNP of 1's, since supplement iron hands smashfucker could get a potential of 2+ FNP; Gorgon chains + apothecary + warlord trait that grants +1 to FNP..

I think 20 points would be too cheap for two wound marines to be honest. A naked Crisis suit is 22 points and has the same T and W and is worse in almost every other stat. It has the whole Jetpack thing sure, but it has no weapons.

Melevolence wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Would then, they actually be tough enough to brave enemy fire? Obviously they'd need a price hike. Probably about 6 or more points - what do you think?

Look how badly Nobz are regarded. Even Mega Nobz. 2 wounds a piece, but they WILL die to a well placed S8 shot, two wounds or no. The issue isn't Marines, or Nobz. It's the easy and abundant access to Tank busting weaponry that armies can load up on with little to no worry.

more to the point the problem with Marines is inheriant in their being Marines.

the fluff for Marines is basicly written for a VERY VERY differnt meta.
Imagine if you would a meta where 75% of players are guard or lost and the damned, whom actually exist as a major and popular army in this fictional meta. , something like 20% are Orks, there are a few guys who play eldar but you don't see them much and most players don't even know what the differance between dark eldar and standard eldar are, Tau is one or two guys who play only at one location in town (you're lucky and your local town has 2 gaming clubs and 3 stores) Necrons you've never even heard of beyond a rumored army that supposedly exists and is proably out there hanging with plastic sisters and plastic thunderhawks, Tyranids are a brand new army, and tend to run 'gaunt heavy but are winning an aweful lot of games.
and out of a 1000 man community, maybe 5 people play space Marines of various types. (you don't even know that grey knights exist!) Imagine what the meta for that would be like.

that is proably what the "in universe" meta is like. most local metas however are based around the assumption of Marines being common. you proably don't see a lot of armies gearing to crack 3+ armor saves in universe. but obviously there's nothing GW's gonna be able to do about the fact that Marines of all stripes make up proably a good 75% of the armies out there

 docdoom77 wrote:
I think they'd be even more worthless than they are now. At 20 points, losing a marine to every Krak, Rokkit, Lascannon, Powerfist, etc in the game starts to hurt real bad. Instant death is an adepta sororitas.

Hahaha FEEL MY PAIN!

I'm kinda struggling to find a reason for W2 marines. W2 would change their dynamic significantly, you'd probably be looking a 9-10ppm increase, not a 6ppm increase.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.


My theorized true marine statline would look something like this.

Tactical Marine 20 pts

WS: 4 BS: 4 Str:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Night Vision

Terminators and Veterans would both gain +1WS, BS, and attack. Terminators would also gain a wound and +1T(and cost 55 pts each minimum)

No character would have fewer than 4 wounds.

Something I have thought about a lot and couldn't agree more. Also along with your stat lines, power armor should be 2+ and terminator 2+ rerollable 4+. Then the game would match the fluff and I for one would happily take a huge point increase. But GW will not do it...

Whoa 2+ power armor? That would be insane, CC would become impossible for any non-marine player.