M855 Ammunition Ban Reintroduced as Bill by House Democrats

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**NuggzTheNinja**

http://thehill.com/regulation/legislation/235531-dems-pushing-bullet-ban-legislation

Democrats are pressing new legislation in the House that would ban forms of armor-piercing ammunition.

Rep. Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.) is pushing the Armor Piercing Bullets Act followingthe Obama administration’s decision earlier this week to withdraw a controversial proposal that would restrict 5.56 mm projectiles for M855 cartridges commonly used in AR-15 rifles.

“Armor-piercing rounds like green tips should only be in the hands of military personnel or police officers, period,” Engel said. “There is absolutely no compelling argument to be made for anyone else to have access to them.”

“But the out-of-touch gun industry lobby is fighting tooth and nail to keep cop-killing ammunition on the streets. We need to speak up on behalf of our police officers and say ‘stop the madness, ’” he added.
Engel's legislation, expected to be introduced Friday, would restrict the sale of the 5.56 mm projectiles, which can can penetrate police body armor.

"Deers do not wear body armor,” a spokesman for Engel joked. “No, I have never met a deer that walks around in Kevlar.”

Even as they pursue legislation, congressional Democrats are also pushing for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to move ahead with restrictions on the armor-piercing bullets.

The ATF had sought to prohibit gun companies from manufacturing or selling 5.56 mm projectiles for M855 cartridges, but shelved the plan after an outcry from gun groups and congressional Republicans.

Dozens of Democrats, including including Reps. Carolyn Maloney (N.Y.), Jackie Speier (Calif.) and Steve Israel (N.Y.), are expected to sign a letter that will be sent on Friday to ATF Director B. Todd Jones asking him to reconsider the plan.

Speier is also planning to introduce her own piece of legislation next week that would more broadly ban forms of armor-piercing ammunition.

It's a shame that issues like this become partisan politics fueled by 100% propaganda, when the real threat posed by M855 ammunition could be easily investigated by just looking at the number of officers who have actually been shot with the stuff.

I blame it on the fact that we have businessmen and lawyers in the government, rather than scientists and doctors.

**Nostromodamus**

More acts of idiocy perpetrated by morons who have no idea what they are talking about.

"Cop-killing ammunition" (to my knowledge zero police have been killed with it)

"We need to speak up on behalf of our police officers" (since when have congresspeople been interested in speaking for the people they represent?)

"Deers" (yeah...)

**KiloFiX**

What?! That can't be ....they promised us no slippery slope!

O.o

Edit - at least they aren't considering a ban on other calibers and types of rifle ammunition ....at all ....ever....

**Ouze**

I saw a great many stories a few days ago indicating that the ATF "abandoned the M855 ban" on 3/10, but I think those stories are mistaken. At no point did the ATF withdraw their plan; I think their statement clearly indicated such.

To wit:

NOTICE TO THOSE COMMENTING ON THE ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION EXEMPTION FRAMEWORK

Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.

Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.

Emphasis mine.

**Nostromodamus**

Yep, ATF will continue to seek to ban arbitrary things to make them look like they're still a useful agency and receive funding, all "for our safety" of course.

Sick of this "feel good" crap that does feth all except gak all over the law-abiding citizenry.

**d-usa**

But this ban happened in 2012 according to the last thread...

**Stonebeard**

Reintroduced to the House, where it will die a slow, largely ignored death.

Cute as a propaganda piece, though. Cop-killer round? The feth does that even mean?

**d-usa**

Stonebeard wrote:

Cute as a propaganda piece, though. Cop-killer round? The feth does that even mean?

It means you need quotable soundbites when you are serving a 2 year term which includes 1.5 years of campaigning for your next 2 year term.

**Dreadclaw69**

Did the people introducing this Bill not pay attention to the push back against the ATF? Were they not paying attention when the Fraternal Order of Police even came out and said that they are not concerned over this round being available to the public?

I, and I'm guessing many others, would like to know exactly how many police or Federal agents have been killed or injured by this round in the line of duty.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alex C wrote:
Yep, ATF will continue to seek to ban arbitrary things to make them look like they're still a useful agency and receive funding, all "for our safety" of course.

Sick of this "feel good" crap that does feth all except gak all over the law-abiding citizenry.

I hope the sponsors of this Bill are prepared for unintended consequences; such as the threatened Bill to defund the ATF becoming a reality

**Nostromodamus**

Stonebeard wrote:
Cop-killer round? The feth does that even mean?

It means those bullets can kill police, unlike other bullets.

Or something.

I dunno, I lump it in with things like "30 magazine clip" and "shoulder thing that goes up".

**Stonebeard**

Alex C wrote:
Stonebeard wrote:
Cop-killer round? The feth does that even mean?

It means those bullets can kill police, unlike other bullets.

Or something.

I dunno, I lump it in with things like "30 magazine clip" and "shoulder thing that goes up".

It's all clear to me, now.

**Nostromodamus**

You should totally photoshop a green tip on that

Kermit had it right; It ain't easy being green (tipped).

**Ouze**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I hope the sponsors of this Bill are prepared for unintended consequences; such as the threatened Bill to defund the ATF becoming a reality

The NRA will never allow that to happen.

**LordofHats**

The ATF is their biggest advertising tool

**d-usa**

Ouze wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I hope the sponsors of this Bill are prepared for unintended consequences; such as the threatened Bill to defund the ATF becoming a reality

The NRA will never allow that to happen.

If the Cold War has taught us anything it is that you always have to have an enemy if you want to survive.

**Grey Templar**

I think they'd still have plenty of foes on the left side of the fence in the ATF's absence.

**Stonebeard**

What he said.

The government will never run dry on chicken-little idiots, on either side, so we can look forward to having the NRA around probably until gak starts to smell like peanut butter and hell opens its first ski resort. Probably after those, too.

Alex C wrote:
You should totally photoshop a green tip on that

Kermit had it right; It ain't easy being green (tipped).

If I had any talent at all with the program, or owned it, I certainly would.

**hotsauceman1**

d-usa wrote:
Ouze wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I hope the sponsors of this Bill are prepared for unintended consequences; such as the threatened Bill to defund the ATF becoming a reality

The NRA will never allow that to happen.

If the Cold War has taught us anything it is that you always have to have an enemy if you want to survive.

See, I think the ATF is actually ran by the nra, making sure the nra has an adversary

**Ouze**

People often say that the ATF is wholly incompetent. This is true. However, it's not often noted that this is entirely by design:

The ATF is perpetually underfunded, with 1/8th of the budget of the FBI for 1/4th of the agents of the FBI. Adjusting for inflation, their budget has been static for 14 years.
The ATF is perpetually undermanned: in 1973, they had 826 investigators. In 2014, they have 780. They've gone from 5,000 employees in 2001 to 4,800 today.
The ATF is kept with ineffective leadership: Congress peeled the ATF from Treasury in 2006, which meant that it needed senate confirmation for it's director. It then refused to confirm any directors from 2006 until 2013.

When it looked like the ATF really might get rolled up into the Secret Service under the Reagan administration,the NRA actually had to oppose this, and in effect saved the NRA. Rolling enforcement duties into any other agency will only result in a massive improvement in competency and effectiveness, which of course the NRA doesn't want.

**Grey Templar**

They may be underfunded and undermanned, but that shouldn't cause their agents to be either total morons who think that airsoft guns can be made into real guns or liars who try and convince the gullible public that airsoft guns can be made into real guns.

**cincydooley**

hotsauceman1 wrote:

See, I think the ATF is actually ran by the nra, making sure the nra has an adversary

You mean besides people like Bloomberg and other gun grabbers?

**hotsauceman1**

Obviously puppets put in place by the nra. It's all a conspiracy..........

**cincydooley**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Obviously puppets put in place by the nra. It's all a conspiracy..........

I think you should probably reevaluate getting a firearm.

**hotsauceman1**

.....ehh, I have to live on my own before I can even get one. mom said no. And even though I'm 22, she doesn't want a gun in the house.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
total morons who think that airsoft guns can be made into real guns.

At least one news station brought one of the airsoft guns in that case to a gunsmith who admitted it was possible.

They rescinded the ruling later, anyway.

**hotsauceman1**

Wait....aren't all bullets cop killers? What makes m855 so special

**Grey Templar**

Ouze wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
total morons who think that airsoft guns can be made into real guns.

At least one news station brought one of the airsoft guns in that case to a gunsmith who admitted it was possible.

They rescinded the ruling later, anyway.

Sure, it was possible to take out all the guts and use the plastic case to house an actual gun. But none of the parts integral to a firearm were part of that airsoft gun.

**Ouze**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait....aren't all bullets cop killers? What makes m855 so special

It has a steel penetrator tip. The way that the law is written, "bullet core" is an undefined phrase, so they are construing it has having a steel core.

It can penetrate lower level protective vests, so it's being spun as a "cop killer" round. However, the nature of rifles, velocity-wise, is such that most centerfire rifles can penetrate those levels of vest regardless of the composition of the round.

**Grey Templar**

On top of that, very few police officers are killed with any type of rifle. Such that they don't even have databases of weapon types used in officer shootings. At least none available to the public it seems.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, it was possible to take out all the guts and use the plastic case to house an actual gun.

Congratulations. You just defined a "firearm", under the gun control act.

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

IIRC all the holes in the lower to accept a M16 fire control group were present save one, and you'd need only a shim, thus - readily convertible.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Grey Templar wrote:
On top of that, very few police officers are killed with any type of rifle. Such that they don't even have databases of weapon types used in officer shootings. At least none available to the public it seems.

Well, the AR15 is a lot scarier looking than the .25, .380, and 9mm caliber pistols that actually kill lots of people.