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Hello dakka,

I have the opportunity to trade for 3 imperial knights. I'm strongly considering it.
My problem with it, I don't want to take the fun out of the game (for my opponent).
Would you consider a 3 knight army (or formation) + a CAD or formation of something else as cheesy/trollish/WAAC?
This is for friendly FLGS tournament play. People regularly bring trip tides with batman in a crisis squad, or air forces and things of that nature. But some people also bring fun themed armies.

Let me know what you guys think. Please vote, add commentary if you wish.
And btw, my thought is to go dark mechanicus. perfect timing for next release.
-DB

I think it kinda does if you just spring it on him, but you could just ask him first.

If he's anything like me, he might relish the idea of trying to create a force that can handle that many knights, whereas my normal force would probably just keel over. He might look at it as a challenge.

Outside of a tournament, I would say 1 Knight per 1500 points is about a fair ratio. Anything more than that I think should be saved for one-off pre-agreed matches or Apoc games.

However, nothing to stop you still doing the trade and only using 1 or 2 at a time. Maybe build one as an Errant and one as a Paladin, then double up or see about converting the 3rd to one of the Forge world variants?

depends on the scale of the game and what your fighting

I would say 1 knight for 1500. If you play above this (2000+) I would say 2 knights would be good. I wouldn't ever throw 3 knights at someone unless they agreed to it, or if it was a campaign based set up.

Depends on the meta (are you all competitive? yes then who cares, no then feth its going to be a dull game)

If the majority of the games will be for pick up then it will be incredibly dull for a normal regular joe list. (as you literally counter all of there anti infantry weapons)

There was a huge thread about this last year, although I can't find a link to it at the moment, the general result was that you should discuss fielding 3 IK with your opponent before doing it, and not just suprise him with them.

Opponents should be capable of capitalizing on IK's poor board control, inability to hold objectives, weak anti air, and general ineptitude in Maelstrom missions even if they didn't bring significant Anti Tank Weaponry.

I say go for it. I love testing my lists and my skill against stuff like that. I think the people that complain about them just need to figure out how to beat them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to down IK.

 danjbrierton wrote:

Would you consider a 3 knight army (or formation) + a CAD or formation of something else as cheesy/trollish/WAAC?
This is for friendly FLGS tournament play. People regularly bring trip tides with batman in a crisis squad, or air forces and things of that nature. But some people also bring fun themed armies.

Let me know what you guys think. Please vote, add commentary if you wish.
And btw, my thought is to go dark mechanicus. perfect timing for next release.
-DB

I dont think THAT strongly about it but I'm not going to lie: likening Knights to Riptides is like saying a Space Marine is the same as an IG. No Riptide ever thought of being as awesome as a Knight. it just never happened. Lol.

I think the most important people to ask this question of though, aren't found on Dakka Dakka. I'd be asking your regular opponents. Theres too many people online with Keyboard courage enough to speak in all kinds of hyperbole and/or with motivated self interest, or they're just out to make a point.

My thing is: if you're asking this question, you kind of already suspect the answer, don't you?

 Toofast wrote:
I say go for it. I love testing my lists and my skill against stuff like that. I think the people that complain about them just need to figure out how to beat them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to down IK.

Just because you know how to beat it doesn't mean it isn't still OP. Hell, Necrons are a testament to that. Besides, if you bring a fluffy or poor list, you will probably get destroyed by 3 Knights in a non-Maelstrom game.

Regarding how WAAC 3 IKs are I recently have found this masterpice of a picture:


I really don't think that IK that much scarier than Land Raider or couple Leman Ruses tanks.

I like to play fluffy games and though I like to have a challenge (Charging a Khorne Warband into a Necron decurion for example) a knight army would be pushing it... 1 Knight is fine though.

Our local knight player has sold all three of his knights. He said it's cause one does nothing significant and gets focused down like no big deal, two are taking away half the points and are still afraid of many stuff, while 3+ are very one-dimensional to play with and against win or loose. There's not much strategy in fielding adlance.

IKs are very rock paper scissors. If you have the tools to deal with them, they're fine. If not, you lose.

 DarkLink wrote:
IKs are very rock paper scissors. If you have the tools to deal with them, they're fine. If not, you lose.

^This. Knights are not broken, Knights are skew. If you brought all the melta you're fine, if you built a TAC list you're boned. It exacerbates the rock-paper-scissors skew list problem that's prevalent in 40k today.

 Reinokarite wrote:
Regarding how WAAC 3 IKs are I recently have found this masterpice of a picture:

Spoiler:

I really don't think that IK that much scarier than Land Raider or couple Leman Ruses tanks.

The thing that stands out to me here though is what the opponent was fielding.... from the sounds of it his army was literally entirely melta based, like he knew that he'd be playing against max armor. If your opponent comes with enough melta to bring down an Imperator Titan sure, your knights are boned. An army with that much melta would be absolute rubbish against a mob army, and doesn't even sound too effective against the sort of TAC DA list that I run (I'd outgun him easily).

On the other hand, my generic style lists that don't really focus on killing anything specific can't deal with many vehicles. I can deal with other general lists okay, I do well against mobs, I do decent against tanks.... but no level of strategy would let me kill multiple knights, I just don't have the firepower to do it.

As others have said, knights are just a set thing.... you either have the guns to kill them or you don't. If you do, you blow up all your opponents expensive stuff easy and it's game over. If you don't, you run around the board for an hour and try to score points.

If you can not bring IK down you can not wreak Land Raiders, Predators or Leman Russes too. Wich is sad in itself...

There is nothing wrong with taking 3 IKs to a casual game, if you let the player know. I know that those lists exist and I would like to try to fight one. But I wouldn't want to play it every time I play you. If that is all you ever brought to the table I might avoid playing you to play with that guy over there. So bring more than one list. Offer your 3 IKs, joke about how cheesy it is and see if they would like the challenge. Then when they say no, take out your normal list.

It will definitely take the fun out.
It requires a tailored list to take on 3 IK's.

 Reinokarite wrote:
Regarding how WAAC 3 IKs are I recently have found this masterpice of a picture:

Spoiler:

Ha ha ha, I love the fact he is so bitter that his $200 collection of knights got mauled that he tries to get a snide dig in by referring to the DA player's 4++ save as 'cheese tastic'. Has a DA player ever been accused of this?

 Reinokarite wrote:
If you can not bring IK down you can not wreak Land Raiders, Predators or Leman Russes too. Wich is sad in itself...

Well, considering tac marines can beat up predators and russes, I find this statement a bit difficult to believe....

Landraiders are not stomping you in return.

I have seen 4 at 1500, fits perfectly pointswise. Kicked butt too!

I have 18 melta, 2 twin linked multi melta, a twin linked lascannon and 3 invisible, shrouded grav cannons that ignore cover and re roll misses. My other list has 6 WS, 2 with fire dragons and exarch with fire pike. Nope, not really scared of IK.

Aka all my lists are counter lists.

As people said here, don't ask here , ask people you play against.
Also a lot depends on what army will be the ally or main for the knights.

A house rule I have is that Knights are counted as LOW in all Imperial armies.

In a fun game yes, competitive tournament no. I mean if you want to run adlance someday then go for it.

 Toofast wrote:
I have 18 melta, 2 twin linked multi melta, a twin linked lascannon and 3 invisible, shrouded grav cannons that ignore cover and re roll misses. My other list has 6 WS, 2 with fire dragons and exarch with fire pike. Nope, not really scared of IK.

Cheese versus Cheese is likely ok.............but if you are not excepting to play that sort of game then its a whole load of no fun for both sides unless one player is the unpleasent sort who just likes winning at all costs - they are about........

That would be a bit unfair if the opponent doesn't know they are facing it.
But i recon it would be a great laugh if your're facing another imperial knight list.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
IKs are very rock paper scissors. If you have the tools to deal with them, they're fine. If not, you lose.

^This. Knights are not broken, Knights are skew. If you brought all the melta you're fine, if you built a TAC list you're boned. It exacerbates the rock-paper-scissors skew list problem that's prevalent in 40k today.

I would suggest that their Take All Comers list doesn't live up to it's name.

I don't even build lists with IK's in mind and I have a solution to them any T.A.C. list I field.