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So marinse. They're the army by which other armies are measured. When you build your army, you usually think about how easily you can kill marine equivalents. When discussing armies, one tends to compare an army's speed, offense, defense, special abilities, fluff, and so on to that of marines. I feel that, as a result, marines have become the "balanced" army. They're not really great at anything. They're not terrible at anything. They have special toys that let them be shooty or stabby, but they're generally less shooty or stabby than xenos factions that specialize at those things. They're durable, but they're not necron durable. They're not bad at shooting, but they're not bad at melee either.

Having a jack-of-all-trades army is a fine thing, and I'm glad it exists in 40k. That said... I don't think the marine aesthetic is really served by being "balanced generalists." In the books...

*keeps talking over the audible groans...*

...In the books, marines don't fight by being "balanced." They fight by being walking tanks with devastating, brutal weaponry. Two guys shake off volleys of incoming lasfire, then tear apart entire platoons in hand to hand To me, marines make less sense standing between the abilities of various xenos and more sense simply being better than everyone else.

Now let's be clear, I'm not primarily a marine player. I play with my various flavors of eldar way more than my marines. I'm collecting tyranids, and I have my eyes on daemons. Much as I like my marines, they were mostly gifts, not purchases. So when I say, "make marines better than everyone else," I'm not speaking from fanboyishness. In the 40k universe, marines are, essentially, Gary Stues. They're scary even to the eldar who are centuries (or millenia) more experienced and more technologically advanced. They're the guys who send a squad or two to rescue an entire planet from an ork invasion. does it make sense for them to kick as much butt as they do? Probably not, but kicking that much butt is their *thing*. They're defined by their plot armor and implausible level of badassery. As a player who faces marines more often than I use them, I'm fine with this. But marines don't feel that way on the battlefield.

Eldar are fast. Orks are numerous and silly. 'Crons are implacable and durable. IG have big guns but die in droves. 'Nids are monsters surrounded by endless swarms. But marines? They don't feel like walking tanks or legends who can take on impossible odds. They feel like guard vets in mildly better armor.

So, what I'm getting around to asking is this: What are your thoughts on someone homebrewing pseudo movie marines? Not quite so pricey, low in number, or potent as movie marines, but dramatically better than normal marines are right now. I'm imagining something like marines with multiple wounds, bolters with more shots and rending, FNP as a default rule all around, that sort of thing. Maybe let characters be especially powerful (making sergeants comparable to HQs) so that the guys the camera zooms in on are consistently imposing. You know. As opposed to being like my power fist sergeant who can't seem to down a single necron. The idea isn't to boost the overall power of marines as an army. It's to boost the power (and points cost) of each individual marine so that they actually feel like plot-armored nightmares who shrug off enemy fire with ease rather than just being slightly better shots in slightly better armor compared to IG vets.

What makes your Movie Marines army list better/more valid than any of the ten thousand others you will find digging back through Proposed Rules?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
What makes your Movie Marines army list better/more valid than any of the ten thousand others you will find digging back through Proposed Rules?

The point of this thread is less to discuss specific tweaks and changes. I'm well aware that there are plenty solid efforts to that effect on these very forums. The reason I created this thread is to discuss if such an effort is even reasonable/necessary/sound like something that would be fun to play with. I can see many people arguing for marines who are more potent on an individual basis. I can also see many people handwaiving it as an effort to make marines better at winning games. That's why I'm not asking *how* you'd make marines more powerful. I'm asking if they *should* be more powerful. Y'know. On a model-by-model basis. Not as an army.

Could be worse.

Could be CSM, where it's "Cheaper, but worse"

Make marines base stat 5 for same price
Inb4 worst idea evar.

I don't think marine should be more «elite», maybe a little bit better by extanding their gear a little bit and some funky one use only special rules like prefered ennemy, furious charge, split fire or for tactical, devastator and assault squads (close combat weapon and pistols). I have two main argument for this.

The first one is based on perspective. In Space Marine piece of fictions, Space Marines are awesome. The same is true for all the other factions. In Gaunt Ghosts, guards are awesome and can even kick Space Marine butt. Thus Space Marines incredible feets is more a question of perception distorted by the massive numbers of shorts and novels featuring them. By all account, all the other xenos species have their own brand of awesome, plot armored elite. Space Marines are very powerful warriors who fight equally supernaturally strong foes and are, on an individual basis, stronger than all of them.

The other reason is game wise. If Space Marines get much stronger than everybody else while still remaining well balanced, their army, already the one with the largest unit selection, special character list, customisation and attention will became even more tentalising. This will transform all the other armies in either sandbags villains or support cast of cheerleaders and shmucks. Thats why I am very wary of those kinds of suggestion. Maybe you can dissipate my doubts, but I will need some good argument to be convinced.

They have the Marines you're thinking about, they just made them something like 6.5" tall and called them "Imperial Knights". But you could paint them like your favourite Marine's colours. They even have the giant pauldrons to paint Chapter markings on.

Sad that your chainsword doesn't eviscerate everything it touches? Knights don't have that problem! And a couple of Knights probably could chop through a platoon.

I think it is fun. I use movie marine rules a lot for narrative games. It makes games feel more fluffy.

Make ALL the factions movie!

epronovost wrote:
I don't think marine should be more «elite», maybe a little bit better by extanding their gear a little bit and some funky one use only special rules like prefered ennemy, furious charge, split fire or for tactical, devastator and assault squads (close combat weapon and pistols). I have two main argument for this.

The first one is based on perspective. In Space Marine piece of fictions, Space Marines are awesome. The same is true for all the other factions. In Gaunt Ghosts, guards are awesome and can even kick Space Marine butt. Thus Space Marines incredible feets is more a question of perception distorted by the massive numbers of shorts and novels featuring them. By all account, all the other xenos species have their own brand of awesome, plot armored elite. Space Marines are very powerful warriors who fight equally supernaturally strong foes and are, on an individual basis, stronger than all of them.

The other reason is game wise. If Space Marines get much stronger than everybody else while still remaining well balanced, their army, already the one with the largest unit selection, special character list, customisation and attention will became even more tentalising. This will transform all the other armies in either sandbags villains or support cast of cheerleaders and shmucks. Thats why I am very wary of those kinds of suggestion. Maybe you can dissipate my doubts, but I will need some good argument to be convinced.

Very good points here. That said, I'd like to play devil's advocate and pick at those points a bit.

Giving marines some small offensive buffs like limited use furious charge or an improved profile on the bolter or better gear options in general would certainly help give them more teeth. That said, an unlucky marine getting dropped by a single lasgun round still feels a bit... off. I don't want marines to be unkillable, but I *do* think they should feel tough as nails when you're playing with them. As I mentioned above, my eldar feel fast. On a good day, they even feel skilled with their weapons. I can't say that my marines generally feel tough and durable except maybe for that terminator with FNP who had some tremendous luck once. Once marines get within range of the enemy, they start dropping fast. Not as fast as, say, guardsmen, but pretty fast.

As for each faction having their own plot armored elites, that is an excellent point. However, marine, as the favored sons of GW, are at their core a bit more special than the other super cool guys out there. My beloved exarchs are multiple millenias old, completely obsessed with war, have inhuman reflexes and advanced alien technology, yet they don't feel like the types to come walking out of a burning building the way marines do. Coming out on top when they shouldn't is just part of who they are. I can read about Joe Schmoe the Tac marine going toe to toe with a dark eldar archon and coming out on top and be fine with it (points costs and logic be darned) because that's just a part of the marines' character. Which is completely "unfair," but rather than see it as atrocious Gary Stuery, I see it as a potentially fun type of army. Currently, marines don't really feel like that.

As for an increased power level being a problem, I really don't see this being an issue. Remember, the idea isn't to make marines better as an army or to make them better at winning games. It's just to make each individual model better so that the army as a whole feels more appropriate to its fluff. Making marines better means upping their points cost means fewer marines on the table means the army is (hopefully) still balanced against other armies out there. Think of, for instance, grey knights. Grey knights are harder to kill than normal marines, have better weapons than normal marines, have extra special powers over normal marines, etc. They also bring a lot fewer models to the table. A given grey knight might treat a few ork boys as "sandbags," but he should. Boyz/gaunts/guardsmen are meant to be the mooks that get killed in droves by more powerful enemies. And that's fine. They cost less, so you don't mind losing them as much. A unit of boyz can still beat a unit of grey knights. It's just that each individual grey knight comes closer to *feeling* more appropriately durable and powerful than the average marine does. Enemy heavy hitters would still hit heavily. It's just that the marines would (theoretically) feel a bit more appropriately powerful.

When marines come at me, I want to see a handful of small squads that refuse to go down and hit hard. I want to feel like each one of these mon-keigh abominations I'm fighting with is a truly impressive threat that gives even my aspect warriors trouble. Currently, their model count is somewhat comparable to mine, and a guardsman who gets lucky can drop a marine with a single punch.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Make ALL the factions movie!

A great idea in theory, but impossible unless you:

1. Rework the entire ruleset from ground up. You won't have enough granularity unless you move to a more complex system (D10? D20?). The current 40k game breaks extremely fast as you try to make it fluffy, as I found to my chagrin in a Proposed Rules thread from a time back. You'd need to redesign the whole game for it to be able to contain the variety.

2. Rework the hobby design. As it is currently, you can have two armies where one consists of more Tactical Space Marines than the opponent has Imperial Guardsmen and it's still a fair fight (because the latter has transports, upgrades...). The hobby is designed accordingly, with Guardsmen not really being that much easier and less time-consuming to build and paint (and cheaper) than Space Marines. The inevitable consequence is that when two players have invested equally into 40k, the Guard player won't have that many more models than the Marine player. If you reworked the game to become lore-correct, it would no longer be compatible with its own hobby (and let's be honest, the game is designed around the models and their sales, not the other way around, so there's definitely that reason for things being the way they are). The solution would be to rework the models too. Make Space Marine squads small and expensive and IG squads big and cheap. SM models could be truescaled (7'6"-8' ish to keep it average between depictions so that the fans of each interpretation can cry equally) and thus be like just a few guys per box, with plenty of options, while IG could get their ridiculous proportions toned down and be changed to cheaper 20-man squads.

This all assumes that we are just talking IG and SM. Compared to the former, Eldar are also a damn sight more powerful in the lore than they are in the game, so they would need adjusting too. Actually, pretty much all armies would. Some armies are better balanced against each other than others. Eldar and SM for example; their battlefield combat matches their lore combat well, once you account for what is obviously broken (hi wave serpents). IG, however, really throw a spanner in that - they are superpowered FPS-protagonist humans for some reason, and the only reason they don't kick more butt than they do in-game is because they are going up against figurative demigods of war.

Naturally, this all is a fethton of work and would require redesigning EVERYTHING in 40k, rules and models. That is why it won't happen. 40k does gradual changes. Marines now are different from Marines of second edition, but changes have all been comparatively subtle and gradual. A Tactical Squad of 2nd ed is not that far from their brothers in 7th.

I have often argued for more powerful Marines (and Eldar, and certain Tyranids, and certain Orks, and Necrons, and Daemons...). Say what you want about the consistency of the background, I can safely say that the perfect average (and/or median?) would put a Marine in PA as far more powerful than his current incarnation. But over time I have realised that 40k has become a game that can't contain its own lore. That is why I have mostly moved to RPGs these days, because they can.

TL;DR: It would be cool and I'd like it. But it's too much change, too much work, for GW, and for the people who are already in 40k. So perhaps the status quo is better after all - once you acknowledge that it's basically an 'arcade' game that has no relation or link to its own background whatsoever, it becomes easier to enjoy it. It has more in common with a TCG than an RTS.

Edit: Before IG fans come and bite my throat off, this is just my opinion that I've formed after years of observation - most of my life, in fact.

 Rippy wrote:
Make marines base stat 5 for same price
Inb4 worst idea evar.

CSM are only worse because their lackluster upgrades cost points and usually include a drawback, whereas loyalists get straight upgrades for free.

The problem is if you made space marines better and adjusted the points appropriatly they would actually become a worse army game play wise. Counter intuitive I know, but take a list of only captains and chapter masters, even give them access to heavy and special weapons lists. Then see how many games you win.
Even lists which are sternguard heavy aren't exactly optimal and that's only giving them a veteran stat line and special issue ammo. If you wanted them upgraded further than that the problem exacerbates.


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MarsNZ wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Make marines base stat 5 for same price
Inb4 worst idea evar.

CSM are only worse because their lackluster upgrades cost points and usually include a drawback, whereas loyalists get straight upgrades for free.

And lack of ATSKNF. That's the biggie.

Really, CSM's crappy rule that forces them to always challenge should come with the benefit of never fleeing from combat (as Sweeping Advance is the main reason people complain about CSM not having ATSKNF).

Loyalist marines don't need to be more elite, non-Marines just need to be weaker.

Necron Player answering "Should Necron Warriors be more elite?"

A: Hell yes! They should make Necron Warriors more elite by giving them access to a S9 AP1 Melta Pistol- Or - a S7 AP3 Rapid Fire weapon (maybe we could tone that madness down with the Gets Hot special rule) - Or - a Grav Weapon, - OR-, at the very least, give them a Flamer or a Combi-Weapon, for the love of things holy. And now for the stuff that won't pass muster at my flgs: for kicks, lets give 1 in 10 of them a laundry list of Heavy Weapons to pick from. 3+ armor save sounds pretty tough, make it happen! Then lets give them grenades, not one kind, but two kinds. But that's not enough: then we should give them And They Shall Know No Fear. That's a gak-ton of special rules! Let stop while we're ahead, looks pretty Elite to me![

Oops...not done yet.

Lets give 1 of them access to a Power Weapon or Power Fist, and at least a Plasma Pistol.

There...now we are done./quote]

 jasper76 wrote:
Necron Player answering "How do I make my Necron Warriors more elite?"

They should make Necron Warriors more elite by giving them access to a S9 AP1 Melta Pistol- Or - a S7 AP3 Rapid Fire weapon (maybe we could tone that madness down with the Gets Hot Special rule) - Or - a Grav Weapon, - OR-, at the very least, give them a Flamer, for the love of things holy. And now for the stuff that won't pass muster at my flgs: for kicks, lets give 1 in 10 of them a laundry list of Heavy Weapons to pick from. 3+ armor save sounds pretty tough, make it happen! Then lets give them grenades, not one kind, but two kinds. But that's not enough: then we should give them And They Shall Know No Fear. That's a gak-ton of special rules! Let stop while we're ahead, looks pretty Elite to me!

Aside from the reply being unnecessarily snarky, I agree that Necrons would need some degree of power (and price...) increase if Marines get one.

A Necron Warrior should still not be a match for a Tactical Marine 1v1, but once you get into Immortal+ territory, it gets less easy.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Necron Player answering "How do I make my Necron Warriors more elite?"

They should make Necron Warriors more elite by giving them access to a S9 AP1 Melta Pistol- Or - a S7 AP3 Rapid Fire weapon (maybe we could tone that madness down with the Gets Hot Special rule) - Or - a Grav Weapon, - OR-, at the very least, give them a Flamer, for the love of things holy. And now for the stuff that won't pass muster at my flgs: for kicks, lets give 1 in 10 of them a laundry list of Heavy Weapons to pick from. 3+ armor save sounds pretty tough, make it happen! Then lets give them grenades, not one kind, but two kinds. But that's not enough: then we should give them And They Shall Know No Fear. That's a gak-ton of special rules! Let stop while we're ahead, looks pretty Elite to me!

Aside from the reply being unnecessarily snarky, I agree that Necrons would need some degree of power (and price...) increase if Marines get one.

A Necron Warrior should still not be a match for a Tactical Marine 1v1, but once you get into Immortal+ territory, it gets less easy.

Snark apologized for. I get a little put off by SM players saying their basic 13 ppm troops aren't elite enough, when they already have a gazillion special rules.

Also necrons have ld10, a 4+/5+ extra special save, which in most cases will be in a list with access to reroll 1's, guns which cause auto glances and wounds on 6's so don't need to pay extra for special weapons, access to 2 of the best transports in the game. Oh and have accessbto relentless from an almost always taken formation.
Necron warriors with 4+ rp and a reroll of 1's are only slightly less durable overall than terminators.


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Also marines are 14ppm. Melta is st8 and plasma is ap2.

Edit - found the maths I did in another thread:
Against ap5 st7 or lower warriors only have a 20.8% chance of failing a save which is far closer to a termis 16.7% chance of failing than a powerarmoured 33.3% chance of failing. 
Against ap3 and 4 they have a 41.4% chance of failing (this is their weak spot). 
Against ap2 st7 or lower they have a better chance than termis (41.4% against 66.7% chance of failing) 
Against ap2 st8 or higher they again have a better chance than termis (55.5% against 66.7%). 
They are slightly less durable than termis overall I'd say due to the ap3-4 gap, but cost less than a 1/3 of the price.

Termis have arguably worse firepower due to gauss but much better close combat ability and usrs such as ATSKNF and deepstrike. Warriors have access to Nightscythes and Ghost Arks.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Necron Player answering "How do I make my Necron Warriors more elite?"

They should make Necron Warriors more elite by giving them access to a S9 AP1 Melta Pistol- Or - a S7 AP3 Rapid Fire weapon (maybe we could tone that madness down with the Gets Hot Special rule) - Or - a Grav Weapon, - OR-, at the very least, give them a Flamer, for the love of things holy. And now for the stuff that won't pass muster at my flgs: for kicks, lets give 1 in 10 of them a laundry list of Heavy Weapons to pick from. 3+ armor save sounds pretty tough, make it happen! Then lets give them grenades, not one kind, but two kinds. But that's not enough: then we should give them And They Shall Know No Fear. That's a gak-ton of special rules! Let stop while we're ahead, looks pretty Elite to me!

Aside from the reply being unnecessarily snarky, I agree that Necrons would need some degree of power (and price...) increase if Marines get one.

A Necron Warrior should still not be a match for a Tactical Marine 1v1, but once you get into Immortal+ territory, it gets less easy.

Snark apologized for. I get a little put off by SM players saying their basic 13 ppm troops aren't elite enough, when they already have a gazillion special rules.

That's just people wanting the models they use a lot to be better, even if you play for fun, it's still fun to win ya know? But it is annoying. I think Marines are fine where they are, the bolter is a great weapon, but the options is why they're worth it. It's not like the Necrons, where you have warriors who all have to use the same Gauss weapons. At the same time, complaining that the marines can take a heavy weapon, and a plasma pistol, and a power sword, and a plasma gun isn't really the best thing to take issue with. I can give a guardsmen unit the same thing.

 jasper76 wrote:
Necron Player answering "Should Necron Warriors be more elite?"

A: Hell yes! They should make Necron Warriors more elite by giving them access to a S9 AP1 Melta Pistol- Or - a S7 AP3 Rapid Fire weapon (maybe we could tone that madness down with the Gets Hot special rule) - Or - a Grav Weapon, - OR-, at the very least, give them a Flamer or a Combi-Weapon, for the love of things holy. And now for the stuff that won't pass muster at my flgs: for kicks, lets give 1 in 10 of them a laundry list of Heavy Weapons to pick from. 3+ armor save sounds pretty tough, make it happen! Then lets give them grenades, not one kind, but two kinds. But that's not enough: then we should give them And They Shall Know No Fear. That's a gak-ton of special rules! Let stop while we're ahead, looks pretty Elite to me![

Oops...not done yet.

Lets give 1 of them access to a Power Weapon or Power Fist, and at least a Plasma Pistol.

There...now we are done./quote]

The one in ten heavy weapon tends to clash, it's why grey hunters tend to be better.

Adding extra combi weapons is rather expensive, plasma pistols are so horrifically overpriced that one thinks they were still thinking of second edition, 3+ save is worth jack half the time.

Also it's funny how you think think all that is "Special Rules" when it's just wargear options.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Necron Player answering "How do I make my Necron Warriors more elite?"

They should make Necron Warriors more elite by giving them access to a S9 AP1 Melta Pistol- Or - a S7 AP3 Rapid Fire weapon (maybe we could tone that madness down with the Gets Hot Special rule) - Or - a Grav Weapon, - OR-, at the very least, give them a Flamer, for the love of things holy. And now for the stuff that won't pass muster at my flgs: for kicks, lets give 1 in 10 of them a laundry list of Heavy Weapons to pick from. 3+ armor save sounds pretty tough, make it happen! Then lets give them grenades, not one kind, but two kinds. But that's not enough: then we should give them And They Shall Know No Fear. That's a gak-ton of special rules! Let stop while we're ahead, looks pretty Elite to me!

Aside from the reply being unnecessarily snarky, I agree that Necrons would need some degree of power (and price...) increase if Marines get one.

A Necron Warrior should still not be a match for a Tactical Marine 1v1, but once you get into Immortal+ territory, it gets less easy.

Snark apologized for. I get a little put off by SM players saying their basic 13 ppm troops aren't elite enough, when they already have a gazillion special rules.

That's just people wanting the models they use a lot to be better, even if you play for fun, it's still fun to win ya know? But it is annoying. I think Marines are fine where they are, the bolter is a great weapon, but the options is why they're worth it. It's not like the Necrons, where you have warriors who all have to use the same Gauss weapons. At the same time, complaining that the marines can take a heavy weapon, and a plasma pistol, and a power sword, and a plasma gun isn't really the best thing to take issue with. I can give a guardsmen unit the same thing.

I'm not complaining. I actually think a Necron Warrior vs. a Space Marine with the current rules is a nice balance. Necrons shoot Bolters that can hurt anything on a 6, and are tough as gak with RP, but have 0 options, no Searge or Champ or whatever, and a midling 4+ armor save. Marines can stock up with whatever special weapon/heavy weapon combinitation they like, come with grenades, add a Champion with power weapons and another special weapon, are also very very tough with a 3+ armor save, have something better than Fearless, have Chapter Tactics...

..actually, I'm back to my original point. Space Marines are better at 13 ppm than Necron Warriors.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Also it's funny how you think think all that is "Special Rules" when it's just wargear options.

Fair enough. I was using the term "Special Rules" too freely. Perhaps I should have just said "Bonus Options" or something more generic.

Again -14ppm. Also they are FAR more durable than tactical marines. See above post. They also don't have to pay for extra specials due to gauss.
I'm a necron player as well as a BA player so I'm not being biased.

 jasper76 wrote:

I'm not complaining. I actually think a Necron Warrior vs. a Space Marine with the current rules is a nice balance. Necrons shoot Bolters that can hurt anything on a 6, and are tough as gak with RP, but have 0 options, no Searge or Champ or whatever, and a midling 4+ armor save. Marines can stock up with whatever special weapon/heavy weapon combinitation they like, add a Champion with power weapons and another special weapon, are also very very tough with a 3+ armor save, have something better than Fearless...

..actually, I'm back to my original point. Space Marines are better at 13 ppm than Necron Warrios..

No they aren't, they can't survive nearly as much as a warrior. And, they don't need any sergeant equivalents, I've had groups of warriors survive crazy amounts of dakka, because statistically, a 4+/4+ is about as good as a 2+ anyways. And, they don't need ASKNF. I've fought them in melee several times, and I haven't had them run as much as my marines, because my marines can't take nearly as much punishment. Your problem seems to be with the lack of options, and that's a decent thing to bring up, because it sucks. But I think warriors are better then Space Marines. When your basic guns can shoot down a Great Unclean One, or a Land Raider, they don't need access to plasma, or melta, or heavy bolters, or sergeants.

@Poly: Oh, I thought a CSM was equal in point to an SM at 13 ppm.

In that case, I think 14 ppm for an SM and 13 ppm for a Necron Warrior is fair, if not leaning in slight favor of the SM.

 jasper76 wrote:
@Poly: Oh, I thought a CSM was equal in point to an SM at 13 ppm.

In that case, I think 14 ppm for an SM and 13 ppm for a Necron Warrior is fair, if not leaning in slight favor of the SM.

CSM don't get ASTKNF nor chapter tactics. So are one cheaper

And no it's not, it really is not, tacticals are considered some of the lowest tier of troops there is.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And no it's not, it really is not, tacticals are considered some of the lowest tier of troops there is.

Then we just agree to disagree.

Sounds fair mate.

Compared to tac marines:
St7 or lower ap5 or worse. Necron - 20.8% chance of fail. SM -33.3%.
St7 or lower ap4. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 33.3%.
St7 or lower ap1-3. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap1-3. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap4. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 33.3%.
St8 or higher ap5 or worse. Necron 30.6%. SM - 33.3%.

The only time a Meq has less of a chance of failing a save is at ap4. Even then it's a 8.1% difference one time and a 22.2% difference the other. When its the other way around and the SM has a worse chance of surviving, its upto a 58.6% difference.


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Sorry - just wanted to do the maths and post the results lol.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Compared to tac marines:
St7 or lower ap5 or worse. Necron - 20.8% chance of fail. SM -33.3%.
St7 or lower ap4. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 33.3%.
St7 or lower ap1-3. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap1-3. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap4. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 33.3%.
St8 or higher ap5 or worse. Necron 30.6%. SM - 33.3%.

The only time a Meq has less of a chance of failing a save is at ap4. Even then it's a 8.1% difference one time and a 22.2% difference the other. When its the other way around and the SM has a worse chance of surviving, its upto a 58.6% difference.


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Sorry - just wanted to do the maths and post the results lol.

Fair enough, tends to be more useful.

As it is though, I really do hope an actual 7th edition codex comes for CSM eventually...And that daemonkin are updated as well, I would not wish 6th edition defilers upon any one.