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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/31 23:36:13
Subject: Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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300 ppm is almost Knight level. I do not think anyone has seriously argued for that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/31 23:49:32
Subject: Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Ruthless Interrogator
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Peregrine wrote:
My point is that your preference for modern-era marine fluff isn't any more objectively accurate than someone else's preference for RT-era marine fluff. GW has never established any kind of policy for determining what is or isn't canon, or under what conditions a source replaces a conflicting source. You can pick and choose what you want to use to establish your Ashiraya- 40k canon and try to make it as consistent as possible, but there's nothing inherently better about Ashiraya- 40k than about my Peregrine- 40k that chooses different sources and interpretations. In this case you prefer modern-era written fluff for defining the power level of marines in Ashiraya- 40k, while I happen to prefer the general performance of the army on the tabletop for defining the power level of marines in Peregrine- 40k. And until GW gives us a canon policy for resolving these conflicting sources there's no way to say that either version of space marine power is the "correct" one.
Ashiraya wrote:There is no Imperium, actually. There's only humans left on Terra. Everything else is lies told by the government to distract humanity.
So I see you're going with the "extreme reality" version of the fluff, where the truth is we're all real people in 2015 and the 40k setting is just GW's attempt to distract us while they take our money.
DoomShakaLaka wrote:Although if there is no official cannon in 40k, then why stop with nerfing space Marines into imperial propaganda? Who's to say that literally everything that you believe to be true about the 40k universe isn't just the lies of the inquisition and the high lords of terra?
Two reasons:
1) Other armies don't have that role in the story. Space marines are larger-than-life heroes and martyrs, much like the heroes of other myths. We know as a reader that the "real" Achilles (if he in fact existed) wasn't invulnerable everywhere but his foot, and the tales of his invulnerability exist because that's just how myths work. Same thing with space marines. Everything about them is deliberately heroic, in ways that the background characters (guardsmen, the anonymous hordes of orks that only exist to be killed by the heroes, etc) aren't.
2) Those other things you listed don't have conflicting sources to resolve. The reason for using "marines are Imperial propaganda" to explain their fluff is that there are fundamental conflicts between the various descriptions of marines. One story has a marine being stabbed to death by a baby with a plastic knife, another story has a titan firing shot after shot at a marine with its main guns and only succeeding in annoying the marine a bit by burning his purity seals. The two examples obviously can't both be true, but "throw out one source entirely" isn't a very satisfying alternative and should ( IMO) be used as a last resort. One alternative way to resolve the conflict is to set the "real" power level of marines somewhere around tabletop level and explain the extreme examples as heroic myths that are exaggerated in their details but still generally true (the titan shot didn't happen, but the battle did). But you don't need to do that unless there's a conflict that needs to be resolved. There's no disagreement over the fact that Tyranids are invaders from outside the galaxy and have unimaginably huge numbers, so there's no reason to claim that "real" Tyranids number in the thousands at most.
I did make up mostof it, but I was just making a point. Although you didn't mention there is old "oudated" fluff for every faction that conflicts with the current state. You made some very good points though. Also to be fair your theory is pretty grimdark as well.
The problem with your theory though is that many of the things that are space marine"fluff" would never be something that the people of the imperium would allow them to know about.
It is safe to assume that the space marine fluff that states their awesome feats to be god-like are correct, but that GW decided to lower their power level game wise for the same reason DC lowered Supermans abilities in JLA... Because otherwise they would be too overwhelming on the tabletop and steal the show ( not to mention sell less models.)
Either way I have a new personal head canon now.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/31 23:51:34
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page
It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/31 23:50:35
Subject: Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Peregrine wrote: Xenomancers wrote:I want to add something constructive to the topic. I'll ask a question - why is it not okay to make marines actually function as elites on the table top? How does it hurt the game? Why does it so offend you?
Marines already function as elites on the tabletop, and the only reason they seem like they aren't is that they're the most common army. Some people seem to want a version of marines where a 1500 point army is a 5-man tactical squad.
That's imperial knights you are talking about. I think people want marines at the terminator points range - but actually do something useful and appear to have a good chance to make their points back. Then Terminators functioning more like ork killa kans in the 80-100 point range and ofc making them ballanced for their point cost.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/31 23:59:04
Subject: Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Ruthless Interrogator
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My suggestion was just to up cost every single space marine model 12-14 ppm and give them wound, attack, weapon, and toughness upgrades as seems appropriate.
It's really not that hard people, its just a matter of agreeing on what's right for each unit.
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Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page
It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 01:22:27
Subject: Re:Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Hallowed Canoness
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Darkblade died a definite death?
In the future, when the evil sadistic elves dies, they just go not-dead. Cannot the old evil elves do that too? Like his daemon sword did something daemonic or whatever?
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 05:55:31
Subject: Re:Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I think a good way to make them feel elite without interfering with the power balance is to let them infiltrate, outflank and deep-strike en-masse on the first 1-2 turns. Gives them the feel of elite troops making precision strikes, which is what elite troops does anyway. Of course, this will come with a corresponding point increase. I wouldn't mind going 17-18 points per marine if I can outflank+deepstrike my entire army in on the first turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 06:49:41
Subject: Should Marines Be More "Elite?"
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Disbeliever of the Greater Good
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Marines do act as walking tanks,but it's in the background...
You know,40k is a table game,which means its need balance,just imagine an AT with hammer and shield walking to a group of fire warriors,ignore all the plasma fire shooting to him,then smash them down like kill a bug....Well,that won't makes me feel enjoyable....
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