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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Loyalist marines don't need to be more elite, non-Marines just need to be weaker.

Now listen here, Marines were T3 in 1st edition, they have gotten more elite over time, guard has had the same dang statline for 7 freakin editions. quit your gubbin.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Loyalist marines don't need to be more elite, non-Marines just need to be weaker.

Now listen here, Marines were T3 in 1st edition, they have gotten more elite over time, guard has had the same dang statline for 7 freakin editions. quit your gubbin.

And you could give every guardsman a grenade launcher with vortex grenades, the Emperor was never "killed" he just went to sleep.

Seriously, lots of things have changed drastically since 1st and 2nd.

Also Chaos had aspiring champions rise from the grave as Skeleton Champions in order to purge themselves of their failure...Kinda want those back, they were kinda awesome.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And yes, Cain killing a Zerker on his own is a terrible thing. He would die to the first attack. He is far far slower so dodging is not an option, and he lacks the physical strength necessary to parry a blow from the Berzerker.

He compensate being a bit slower by a way, way better martial talent, and he did not stop the blow, he deflected it. Requires way less strength.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't read that book (I think, it's been like 8 years since I've read one of those books), but, just going off "Imperial Commissar kills Berzerker", that's the type of "heroic" achievement one can expect, where it's rare and extremely impressive, without being so absurd as to be unbelievable.

You know the saying : a Melta a day keeps the SM away.
(Ciaphas Cain does taunt and humiliate the berserker though, I think this is what is annoying Ashiraya so much. But he is freaking Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, so he could just as easily juggle with primarchs, date a Culexus assassin, or win a drinking contest against a space wolf if his survival was at stake!)

 Ashiraya wrote:
In truth, handwaving the topic with 'it's all ridiculous' is just ignoring the problem. SM fluff has outliers. As does the fluff of all races. But that does not really make it difficult to see an average, or perhaps a median, forming anyway. One in an area that looks at least somewhat possible physically.

Just for your interest, every time you speak about outliers, I remember that time you called some source about the marine's height an outliers, while a few days later some other user made a thread listing all reference to marines height and showing actually the height you were presenting was coming from outliers .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

He compensate being a bit slower by a way, way better martial talent, and he did not stop the blow, he deflected it. Requires way less strength.

He is not a 'bit' slower. He is way way way slower. As for martial talent, he went up against a superhuman champion of the Lord of Battle. I dare say he'd be very much matched in terms of skill...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spoiler:

Well, Cain does not even kill the berserker. Just distract him long enough for Jurgen to melta the CSM away.

You know the saying : a Melta a day keeps the SM away.
(Ciaphas Cain does taunt and humiliate the berserker though, I think this is what is annoying Ashiraya so much. But he is freaking Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, so he could just as easily juggle with primarchs, date a Culexus assassin, or win a drinking contest against a space wolf if his survival was at stake!)

Well yes, he has plot armour. That's what I am saying.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Just for your interest, every time you speak about outliers, I remember that time you called some source about the marine's height an outliers, while a few days later some other user made a thread listing all reference to marines height and showing actually the height you were presenting was coming from outliers .

Making this into a height debate, are we?

You guys got it all wrong. Instead of elevating marines, everything else should be nerfed! grots should be 1s across the profile. Guardsmen should be 2s across the profile and lasguns s2. Eldar need to be 2s on profiles except for ws and bs of 3 and their guns s2. Orks get ws3 and bs1 and t3. crons are too good n need to be nerfed too with lower profile stats.

Work out what you are truly wanting:

1) Individual Marines should be more powerful
2) SM codex should rise in relative power within the meta

Number one entails a points increase. Imagine if you made Marines more 'elite' by turning each Tac Marine into the equivalent of a GK Paladin, with all the appropriate points increases. Would that in any way 'fix' the 'problem' which you are perceiving? The answer is no, it wouldn't, because you'd have fewer models on the table and therefore gain disadvantages in proportion to the advantages. If you really mean number one, then ask yourself if you would rather play GK.

Number two entails a more complex argument, which would require a greater weight of evidence to show that the SM Codex was somehow inferior to other codexes. This argument might fly with DA, but most people probably don't accept it for SM. Consider for example the number of highly placing SM army lists at well attended tournaments- that suggests that the people who have the greatest eye for sheer power consider SMs to be capable of competing fairly, and therefore aren't at the lower ended of the meta for power. If you *still* think number 2, then it is not impossible that all you're actually asking for is 'why can't I be the special snowflake who gets to roflstomp everyone?' This is perhaps motivated by reading SM fiction, and then having your intended kicks of curbstomping people on the tabletop thwarted by the better play of your opponent.

Also, for the record, the 'you' here doesn't mean the original poster, but any hypothetical person to whom the description would apply.

 Filch wrote:
You guys got it all wrong. Instead of elevating marines, everything else should be nerfed! grots should be 1s across the profile. Guardsmen should be 2s across the profile and lasguns s2. Eldar need to be 2s on profiles except for ws and bs of 3 and their guns s2. Orks get ws3 and bs1 and t3. crons are too good n need to be nerfed too with lower profile stats.

Guardsmen being 2 across the board seems okay. Eldar, not so. If Marines stay as they are, Eldar need no changes either.

I go back to the 5th ed grey knights codex when playing 5th ed. A whole army consisted of 20-30 models tops, and usually wecked face. Many people found this army unfun to play against. There is very little satisfaction gained for finally killing one when half your army has already been devastated and you notice you still have 29 more models to go.

Heck just look at playing against IK now. For the most part bringing anymore than 1 makes the battle pretty much one sided.

Its also why people hate playing against Necron Decurion. Its just no fun when the other guy doesn't die no matter what you do.

And while some of this might sound fine in theory and actually fit the idea of forging a narrative that GW is trying to force down our throats, the table top is ultimately about having fun and I really don't think that true Fluff powered marines would be fun to play against.

 Ashiraya wrote:
He is not a 'bit' slower. He is way way way slower.

He is a bit slower.

 Ashiraya wrote:
As for martial talent, he went up against a superhuman champion of the Lord of Battle. I dare say he'd be very much matched in terms of skill...

Nah. He is just that good, the 'serker simply cannot match up.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Making this into a height debate, are we?

Nope, just bringing up we should not overlook the fact that was constitute an outlier can become quite… subjective at times .

Anyone who thinks sergeant upgrades are worth much just demonstrared how little they play 40k. ESPECIALLY powerfists and plasma pistols! Go ahead and bring three or four sergeants with PWs and PPs and see how real marine players look at you.

Otherwise i am disgusted with GWs treatment of SMs. Constantly making them cheaper instead of better. It loudly contradicts all of the fluff. Realistically SMs are there best sellers, making SMs a smaller more elite army would translate into a huge sales loss. So we lovers of SMs as a more elite style army need to line up with the people hoping for another chaos 3.5 codex, or a new Sisters book.

 Red Marine wrote:
Anyone who thinks sergeant upgrades are worth much just demonstrared how little they play 40k. ESPECIALLY powerfists and plasma pistols! Go ahead and bring three or four sergeants with PWs and PPs and see how real marine players look at you.

Otherwise i am disgusted with GWs treatment of SMs. Constantly making them cheaper instead of better. It loudly contradicts all of the fluff. Realistically SMs are there best sellers, making SMs a smaller more elite army would translate into a huge sales loss. So we lovers of SMs as a more elite style army need to line up with the people hoping for another chaos 3.5 codex, or a new Sisters book.

It's been ages since PF's on sarge's was a thing, that hasn't been around since 5th.

 Ashiraya wrote:


And yes, Cain killing a Zerker on his own is a terrible thing. He would die to the first attack. He is far far slower so dodging is not an option, and he lacks the physical strength necessary to parry a blow from the Berzerker.

In the same vein, Guardsmen can't parry Carnifex attacks, because they lack the physical strength to do so. CSM are not as strong as Carnifex, but they are still strong enough to effectively prevent parrying by mortal men.

Cain is a plot-armoured mess and the setting would have been far better off if the original Cain story had been canned.

No, the 40K setting would definitely not be better off without Cain. The Cain books are funny and entertaining, over the top. That's what 40K should be and was always intended to be because when you look at it as anything that is meant to be realistic or serious it falls apart due to all the inconsistency and bad writing.

For people who have read the book in question or don't mind a mild spoiler:
Cain has well trained reflexes from years of combat against Tyranids, Orks, Necrons and other chaos forces. He has fought alongside Space Marines clearing a space Hulk and survived. Parrying does not require raw strength but a force in the direction you want the strike to go at the right time of the swing. It's like firing a tank shell at sloped armour, even though the round has more than enough momentum to go through if it were to hit it straight, that angle allows the shell to be redirected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
As for martial talent, he went up against a superhuman champion of the Lord of Battle. I dare say he'd be very much matched in terms of skill...

Rage and bloodlust does not a skilled fighter make. Berzerkers are ferocious and very strong but they are also single minded and predictable, kind of like an Ork. Cain's killed plenty of Orks, the principle is the same, just with a lot more armour to get through.

Cain is a fencer, a Berzerker is a barbarian.

Hey, do not forget to use spoiler tags ! Some people have not read this duel yet.
But yeah, Cain is awesome. We should rename the Rule of Cool into the Rule of Cain. And Ciaphas Cain runs so much on the Rule of Cain that he truly is a HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!!!

Rage and bloodlust does not a skilled fighter make. Berzerkers are ferocious and very strong but they are also single minded and predictable, kind of like an Ork. Cain's killed plenty of Orks, the principle is the same, just with a lot more armour to get through.

Cain is a fencer, a Berzerker is a barbarian.

Except for the fact that Bezerkers are actually skilled fighters, one needs a bit of it to tear from skilled opponents with bladed skill..

There's a reason they are WS5 on the tabletop.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Hey, do not forget to use spoiler tags ! Some people have not read this duel yet.
But yeah, Cain is awesome. We should rename the Rule of Cool into the Rule of Cain. And Ciaphas Cain runs so much on the Rule of Cain that he truly is a HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!!!

 Torga_DW wrote:

Spoiler:

Isn't that how cain wins every fight though? He fences a bit until jurgen can get the melta gun out?

But yeah, direct melta to the face is the solution for about any enemy you can encounter in 40k short of a bio-titan. Ork big boss? Melta to the face will take care of it! Greater deamon? Melta to the face will take care of it! Hive Tyrant ? Melta to the face will take care of it! (Demon) Primarch? Melta to the face will take care of it! C'tan? Melta to the face will take care of it!
The only real problem is to take the melta close enough without dying, and getting the time to line up the shot. And also cleaning up afterward .
So a mere marine has no chance whatsoever to survive this.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

Spoiler:

Isn't that how cain wins every fight though? He fences a bit until jurgen can get the melta gun out?

Spoiler:

Except when it is Cain himself burrowing the melta .

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Rage and bloodlust does not a skilled fighter make. Berzerkers are ferocious and very strong but they are also single minded and predictable, kind of like an Ork. Cain's killed plenty of Orks, the principle is the same, just with a lot more armour to get through.

Cain is a fencer, a Berzerker is a barbarian.

Except for the fact that Bezerkers are actually skilled fighters, one needs a bit of it to tear from skilled opponents with bladed skill..

There's a reason they are WS5 on the tabletop.

And Cain, for all intents and purposes, is basically a Lord Commissar who is also WS5.

Marines need to be tougher - there is no question about this. We are willing to pay for it. Realistically we don't take our armor save half the time anyways - we will pay more to get some durability.

I think the best solution is 2 wounds at a 5-6 point increase across the board on all walking PA. At T5 or a 2+ save it should be a 8-10 point increase.

Maybe it's because I'm middle-aged with grey hair and stuff now (oh god no!), but I just find a lot of the marine fluff infantile. They're not depicted as supersoldiers, but as the power fantasies of children.

I don't think Space Marines need to be tougher. They already are very tough. Only Necron can surpass them in that field and even then not by mutch. Considering who they are, it makes perfect sense from a fluff point of view. The problem isn't the Marines themsleves, it's the constant rise in firepower since the game was rebooted in 3rd eddition. Each eddition has added toys of greater devastating power in larger numbers to the table.

From a fluff perceptive, all Space Marines fans and lovers (which is most people in th hobby) will tell you that in books Space Marines can walk throught Guards and PDF without any problem and they are right. Yet when they see on tabletop their marines getting shot down by guards like turkeys this sometimes come to shock. In books, how many times did the Space Marine heroes fighting against elite trained and experimented guardsmen squad in carapace armor with three plasma guns and an autocannon supported by Chimera crewed by good drivers or worst a Valkyrie?

That's a pretty regular sight on the tabletop. I have yet to see a guard army that doesn't feature at least one squad like this yet in the fluff you almost will never see it. These guys we can reasonnably believe would make Space Marine sweat a lot more and they do on the tabletop. What the game really need to feal more fluffy isn't stronger and tougher Marines (thow I would agree on them having a little boost worth around 2 or 3 points), but less superweappons and more little guys.

My gaming club at my local GW store has actually devised a little house rules for tournament-like games that revolves completly on unit selection. It allows us to make very balanced games with varied list in which Space Marines are tough to crack while allowing all the other armies to remain true to themselves. Strength and toughness are relative to what you face.

Marines are tough, but lack firepower on their staple units because of low model count. This caps the maximum firepower they can deliver, so they end up taking more fire over the course of a game, making them net LESS durable than a list with high firepower. The best defense in this game is a truly a good offense.

-> Marines need 2 wounds
-> Banshees need double the attacks
-> Orkz need to come in pairs
-> Guardsmen need to be half the cost
-> Marines need 3 wounds
...

And arond and around we to.

Doesn't change the fact that marines have only a few viable units and the BA and DA can't even get those. Even the DC are a complete joke in the current meta. Completely outclassed by real assault units like Wraiths and TWC.

Honestly I think that GW has a poor design philosophy, whereby at the same time

1) they expect players to use mainly volume of fire of small arms (bolters, lasguns, etc.), against which marines are actually quite durable

and

2) they make low-AP weapons, especially low-AP Blast weapons, cheap.

2 results in 1 not actually holding.

If you increased the price of AP1-3 weapons, especially blast ones, marines would look a lot tougher.

AP 1-3 aren't the problem. The problem is Tau and Eldar going "LOLZ eat 60 S6 attacks Astartes!" T4 means nothing. Cover means nothing. Storm shields mean nothing. All that matters is how many points you lose when each "2" or "1" is rolled. The more gear your give you guys, the more points you lose when the power lists rain death.

The AP 2 problem is the gravstar, which also completely dominates marine lists without access to grav cents.

you are looking at it the wrong way. When you complain about a marine getting 1-shot by a lasgun, the other player is getting his wish fufullment over yours.
you also seem to forget that everything in black library is easily considered imperial propaganda, hence the 2 marine gods, gaunts ghosts, and more

I don't care about the Black Library fluff at all. The BL fluff is total crap and has nothing to do with the table top game.

My objection is that most marine units don't do anything like what their OWN CODEX claims they do. But Xenos want to point out frag and krak grenades while they are destroying me from 36" away.

Marine fluff is actually quite realistic if they are in something called "power armor" which shrugs off dmg and makes them punch as hard as their .77 cal explosive bolts. Take them out of that and put them in plot armor and give them ak 47's- then yeah - they are pretty well represented on the tt.

I'm all for tinkering with the rules in your local games if you can find someone who agrees. Sure, make them S5, T5, W2, 5+FNP, and bump their points up. They'll get less powerful as an army if the points go high enough (as has already been stated). Whatever you like that makes the game more fun and fluffy to you and your opponent is fine, the rules in a friendly game are nothing but a shared social contract anyway.

Las guns would be a Kalashnikov. A bolter is very powerful, it's just that many armies use weapons equal to or greater.