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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Compared to tac marines:
St7 or lower ap5 or worse. Necron - 20.8% chance of fail. SM -33.3%.
St7 or lower ap4. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 33.3%.
St7 or lower ap1-3. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap1-3. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap4. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 33.3%.
St8 or higher ap5 or worse. Necron 30.6%. SM - 33.3%.

The only time a Meq has less of a chance of failing a save is at ap4. Even then it's a 8.1% difference one time and a 22.2% difference the other. When its the other way around and the SM has a worse chance of surviving, its upto a 58.6% difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry - just wanted to do the maths and post the results lol.

Fair enough, tends to be more useful.

As it is though, I really do hope an actual 7th edition codex comes for CSM eventually...And that daemonkin are updated as well, I would not wish 6th edition defilers upon any one.

I wouldn't wait...I think their strategy to "fix" CSM (and sell more Daemon models) looks like it will be through the various Daemonkin codices.

 jasper76 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Compared to tac marines:
St7 or lower ap5 or worse. Necron - 20.8% chance of fail. SM -33.3%.
St7 or lower ap4. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 33.3%.
St7 or lower ap1-3. Necron - 41.4%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap1-3. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 100%.
St8 or higher ap4. Necron - 55.5%. SM - 33.3%.
St8 or higher ap5 or worse. Necron 30.6%. SM - 33.3%.

The only time a Meq has less of a chance of failing a save is at ap4. Even then it's a 8.1% difference one time and a 22.2% difference the other. When its the other way around and the SM has a worse chance of surviving, its upto a 58.6% difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry - just wanted to do the maths and post the results lol.

Fair enough, tends to be more useful.

As it is though, I really do hope an actual 7th edition codex comes for CSM eventually...And that daemonkin are updated as well, I would not wish 6th edition defilers upon any one.

I wouldn't wait...I think their strategy to "fix" CSM (and sell more Daemon models) looks like it will be through the various Daemonkin codices.

I've been waiting since the tragedy that was the deconstruction of the 3.5 codex into the awful thorpe dex, and then the awful kellydex, at least the Daemonkin are interesting and fluffy.

If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Yeah I don't buy that one for a minute , Eldar for example have a hero that dragged an entire craftworld out of the Warp on his own, and defeated an entire Tyranid Swarm on his own.

Most Faction has things like this for the most part, an Ork Warbiker rammed through a Titan On Fire, survived, killed the crew, and took their forever flaming heads with him as trophies.

I think the most nuanced are those of the Tyranids (Who can be beaten slightly), and Tau (And even then Farsight defies that)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Yeah I don't buy that one for a minute , Eldar for example have a hero that dragged an entire craftworld out of the Warp on his own, and defeated an entire Tyranid Swarm on his own.

Most Faction has things like this for the most part, an Ork Warbiker rammed through a Titan On Fire, survived, killed the crew, and took their forever flaming heads with him as trophies.

I think the most nuanced are those of the Tyranids (Who can be beaten slightly), and Tau (And even then Farsight defies that)

The Tyranid book has them losing basically every meanigful battle (of course with a good show). It's funny, even all the art in the book where they are against another army shows the other army winning.

Art imitates life?

Oh the universe would be much more peaceful if Movie Marines never existed, that gak is on part with Ork fluff.

Is this We can probably find a better phrase here, yes ? reds8n really comparing Warriors with Tactical Marines and thinking he comes off worse? Let me guess, the new Necron codex was a total nerf too, right?

Power fists and plasma pistols are so OP? Go ahead and try taking them and see what happens.

Protip: You get punked by Warriors and Wraiths.

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Agree 100% it gets really tiring to hear how awesome marines are in the background and how that horrible writing should translate to easy wins on the table. Seriously just read something like Brotherhood of the Snake to see how absurd marines can get. Assuming we use this type of fluff to make marines more powerful how fun would playing a game where one player brought 5-10 models that utterly crushed 10 times their numbers be for the non-marine player?

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Agree 100% it gets really tiring to hear how awesome marines are in the background and how that horrible writing should translate to easy wins on the table. Seriously just read something like Brotherhood of the Snake to see how absurd marines can get. Assuming we use this type of fluff to make marines more powerful how fun would playing a game where one player brought 5-10 models that utterly crushed 10 times their numbers be for the non-marine player?

Wait, are you talking about imperial knights?

I do not know. The problem of more elite marines to me is that the fluff is way too inconsistent, but since most novels are written from a space marine perspective that point of view is often taken to describe how things should be. If I look at, say, the necron codex. Warriors should now probably have ap3 or even ap2 for gauss to live up to how it is described, tearing holes in any armour. And 4+ reanimation? Necrons just keep getting up. Perhaps it should be 2+, and instead of units dying, when squads are wiped they should perhaps end up in reserves again demonstrating how they are transfered into new bodies and teleported back.

The point is, this would be awful to incorporate into the table top. One could even make a case for there being as much necrons as humans in the galaxy (even though all have not awakened), so perhaps it would make sense from a fluff perspective to keep the units cheap. The fluff is inconsistent, and sometimes too exaggerated for my tastes wandering into the realm of juvenile power fantasies, the novels especially. The novels are inconsistent, the codexes are inconsistent, the novels and codexes are inconsistent with eachother. Until the lore makes sense, I do not think Marines should all be turned into elite units even from a fluff perspective and less so from a gameplay point of view.

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

This.

40k's Marine fluff has gotten continually more ridiculous and outrageous over time, to a point where there's no way to reflect them on a table short of giving them the statline of a Dreadknight (only slightly exaggerating in some cases...)

Really, whatever problems some Marine units may have, there's really not a problem with their relative power next for what they're really supposed to be as long as you're not assuming a single Tac squad to engage 12,000 points of Dark Eldar and emerge victorious.

AAA! HE HAD A DOG! That changes the situation entierly!
The writer had obviously just seen Taken.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Edit: Before IG fans come and bite my throat off, this is just my opinion that I've formed after years of observation - most of my life, in fact.

Hey, what about Sisters fans ? We bite your throat too !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Edit: Before IG fans come and bite my throat off, this is just my opinion that I've formed after years of observation - most of my life, in fact.

Hey, what about Sisters fans ? We bite your throat too !

r-r-r-reset the clock!

 Vaktathi wrote:
40k's Marine fluff has gotten continually more ridiculous and outrageous over time

I find just as outrageous things in other novels such as Ciaphas Cain - the Berzerker duel was just outright jarring to read.

In truth, handwaving the topic with 'it's all ridiculous' is just ignoring the problem. SM fluff has outliers. As does the fluff of all races. But that does not really make it difficult to see an average, or perhaps a median, forming anyway. One in an area that looks at least somewhat possible physically.

Space Marine's cooperative multiplayer portrays that average somewhat well, I feel, and I can assure you that said average does not constitute a lot of 3+ to hit...

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Agree 100% it gets really tiring to hear how awesome marines are in the background and how that horrible writing should translate to easy wins on the table. Seriously just read something like Brotherhood of the Snake to see how absurd marines can get. Assuming we use this type of fluff to make marines more powerful how fun would playing a game where one player brought 5-10 models that utterly crushed 10 times their numbers be for the non-marine player?

I think you're missing the part where I mentioned that the idea wasn't to make "easy wins" for the marines. Unless you just mean in general rather than here specifically. The idea is to change the way they "feel" as you play them on the tabletop. As someone pointed out, making them more effective on a guy-by-guy basis but more pricy stands a good chance of actually being less effective. Obviously, you don't want to make it a no-win scenario for the marines, but I'd be fine with them taking a minor dip in overall effectiveness if each individual marine felt satisfyingly badass.

I personally don't see a well done elite marine army featuring as few as 10 bodies in a "normal" sized 40k game, though movie marines were fun. That said, what's wrong with a smaller number of models beating up on a larger number of models? Ten to one might be a bit extreme (except perhaps in the case of swarmy armies), but actually killing each of those marines would theoretically feel much more rewarding for the non-marine player (such as my various eldar). And what's the cut off there? Is a given model not allowed to kill 10 guys? How about 5? Is he allowed to kill more than one enemy? I'm being a bit ridiculous now.

As for over the top shenanigans being "silly" and looking at marine performance realistically, why? In a game about cartoonish space orks and superhumans fighting with chainsaw swords, I will always support humor and rule-of-cool over realism.

What if these "hyper-elite" rules were presented as a variant to standard space marine rules? Something like Codex: Plot Armored Astartes? Have it be something like Move Marines, but with a bit more emphasis on badassery rather than humor. And probably tone down the rules a bit compared to Movie Marines.

When I face marines and wipe out a squad with small arms fire or a squad of incubi or what have you, I never really go, "Oh man! I just took out a space marine! Truly my space elves are powerful!" Instead, I generally go, "Huh. That was surprisingly easy. Why are these astartes such a big deal?" Similarly, when playing with my marines (which is usually as part of a Zone Mortalis game these days), I find myself picking up most of my models as ablative wounds rather than legends of the galaxy. Obviously it would be nice to feel that my army of space marines are the badasses they're made out as, but it would also be nice to feel like I was taking down a truly intimidating threat on a man-by-man basis when fighting against them.

I don't want plot-armoured Astartes. Brothers of the Snake, where a tactical squad tears down thousands of DEldar (who themselves are supposed to be extremely good soldiers, hilariously outclassing IG) doesn't at all result in something good IMO.

Something more sensible like Death of Antagonis makes for a better basis.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't want plot-armoured Astartes. Brothers of the Snake, where a tactical squad tears down thousands of DEldar (who themselves are supposed to be extremely good soldiers, hilariously outclassing IG) doesn't at all result in something good IMO.

Something more sensible like Death of Antagonis makes for a better basis.

I'm only partway through Antagonis right now, so there hasn't been a lot of marine vs non-marine action yet. Zombies not counting because of their strange behavior. That said, I get the impression that the Black dragons as presented in Antagonis are about where I want marines to be. Not unkillable, but not prone to dying to the first volley of lasfire either. You mentioned the Space Marine game earlier, and that's roughly where I want marines to be. They can die after a few good hits, but they never die to the first lucky ork projectile to find them. Though four marines taking on several hundred orks is a bit much. ^_^

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't want plot-armoured Astartes. Brothers of the Snake, where a tactical squad tears down thousands of DEldar (who themselves are supposed to be extremely good soldiers, hilariously outclassing IG) doesn't at all result in something good IMO.

Something more sensible like Death of Antagonis makes for a better basis.

I'm only partway through Antagonis right now, so there hasn't been a lot of marine vs non-marine action yet. Zombies not counting because of their strange behavior. That said, I get the impression that the Black dragons as presented in Antagonis are about where I want marines to be. Not unkillable, but not prone to dying to the first volley of lasfire either. You mentioned the Space Marine game earlier, and that's roughly where I want marines to be. They can die after a few good hits, but they never die to the first lucky ork projectile to find them. Though four marines taking on several hundred orks is a bit much. ^_^

Mind you, they never take on more than a dozen or two Orks at once, so it's understandable that the Orks get wrecked.

As for Death of Antagonis, here is the passage I refer to. Mind you, spoilers.



That is what CSM are about, and SM are entirely on par.

Funny you find something like Cain killing a zerker on his own a terrible thing, but you keep quoting that utterly stupid scene over and over, thread wiping? Really the hell you gotta smoke to come up with that gak

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Agree 100% it gets really tiring to hear how awesome marines are in the background and how that horrible writing should translate to easy wins on the table. Seriously just read something like Brotherhood of the Snake to see how absurd marines can get. Assuming we use this type of fluff to make marines more powerful how fun would playing a game where one player brought 5-10 models that utterly crushed 10 times their numbers be for the non-marine player?

I think you're missing the part where I mentioned that the idea wasn't to make "easy wins" for the marines. Unless you just mean in general rather than here specifically. The idea is to change the way they "feel" as you play them on the tabletop. As someone pointed out, making them more effective on a guy-by-guy basis but more pricy stands a good chance of actually being less effective. Obviously, you don't want to make it a no-win scenario for the marines, but I'd be fine with them taking a minor dip in overall effectiveness if each individual marine felt satisfyingly badass.

I personally don't see a well done elite marine army featuring as few as 10 bodies in a "normal" sized 40k game, though movie marines were fun. That said, what's wrong with a smaller number of models beating up on a larger number of models? Ten to one might be a bit extreme (except perhaps in the case of swarmy armies), but actually killing each of those marines would theoretically feel much more rewarding for the non-marine player (such as my various eldar). And what's the cut off there? Is a given model not allowed to kill 10 guys? How about 5? Is he allowed to kill more than one enemy? I'm being a bit ridiculous now.

As for over the top shenanigans being "silly" and looking at marine performance realistically, why? In a game about cartoonish space orks and superhumans fighting with chainsaw swords, I will always support humor and rule-of-cool over realism.

What if these "hyper-elite" rules were presented as a variant to standard space marine rules? Something like Codex: Plot Armored Astartes? Have it be something like Move Marines, but with a bit more emphasis on badassery rather than humor. And probably tone down the rules a bit compared to Movie Marines.

When I face marines and wipe out a squad with small arms fire or a squad of incubi or what have you, I never really go, "Oh man! I just took out a space marine! Truly my space elves are powerful!" Instead, I generally go, "Huh. That was surprisingly easy. Why are these astartes such a big deal?" Similarly, when playing with my marines (which is usually as part of a Zone Mortalis game these days), I find myself picking up most of my models as ablative wounds rather than legends of the galaxy. Obviously it would be nice to feel that my army of space marines are the badasses they're made out as, but it would also be nice to feel like I was taking down a truly intimidating threat on a man-by-man basis when fighting against them.

The thing is that while Warhammer 40k is full of crazy stuff, it like any other fictional setting needs to maintain a state of disbelief in order for the audience to enjoy it. There a difference between badass super soldiers who in the right situation are worth 10 regular men each and having marines do things that would put superman to shame. Yes they are the best mankind has to offer, however in this setting mankind is supposed to be at a serious disadvantage when facing the many threats that threaten mankind. (Compare a guardsmen to a Necron warrior, the warrior is essentially eternal, has a weapon capable of killing anything, a frame that not is only incredibly resistant but can also rapidly repair itself from weapons that would leave a tank destroyed.) I feel forge world typically does the best job in portraying marines in a badass manner without going into fan boy territory. (Fall of Orpheus versus Brotherhood of the Snake) After all this is a setting were multiple player factions are involved and only having one factions getting to be super awesome at everyone’s else expense is not cool.
Gameplay wise I feel marines are fine durability wise they typically need multiple small arms shots or heavy weapons to be killed (compare how they fare from being hit by a flamer compared to dark Eldar trueborn). It just the game itself has become incredibly hostile to all infantry. Back in 4th the worst you ever had to worry about was battle cannons and Carnifexes, now we have monstrous creatures with plasma battle cannons blowing away squads from across the table or giant super heavies with strength D close combat weapons stomping across the board along with a general increase in available in squad wiping firepower.

Dawn of War had 10 man tactical squads - the marines died relatively easily, just as on tabletop.

Dawn of War 2 has 3 man tactical squads - they're tougher individually but are fewer in number. It felt more 'right' even if the game in general wasn't anywhere near as fun as the first DoW.


If marines were tougher, but fewer in number I would think tabletop would feel closer to the fluff. Is this realistic to do? Well, that's another question entirely

 Bobthehero wrote:
Funny you find something like Cain killing a zerker on his own a terrible thing, but you keep quoting that utterly stupid scene over and over, thread wiping? Really the hell you gotta smoke to come up with that gak

There is nothing stupid with that at all. Space Marines have repeatedly and extremely consistently been proving themselves as strong enough to tear through metal with ease.

A ripped-off chunk of tank treads is not a practical weapon, but then that was sorta the point of them doing it.

And yes, Cain killing a Zerker on his own is a terrible thing. He would die to the first attack. He is far far slower so dodging is not an option, and he lacks the physical strength necessary to parry a blow from the Berzerker.

In the same vein, Guardsmen can't parry Carnifex attacks, because they lack the physical strength to do so. CSM are not as strong as Carnifex, but they are still strong enough to effectively prevent parrying by mortal men.

Cain is a plot-armoured mess and the setting would have been far better off if the original Cain story had been canned.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Could be worse.

Could be CSM, where it's "Cheaper, but worse"

Cheaper, but worse? Man our CSM codex is more expensive and worse just look at Berzerkers vs. Blood Letters when they made daemonkin, Its a mess!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
40k's Marine fluff has gotten continually more ridiculous and outrageous over time

I find just as outrageous things in other novels such as Ciaphas Cain - the Berzerker duel was just outright jarring to read.

I haven't read that book (I think, it's been like 8 years since I've read one of those books), but, just going off "Imperial Commissar kills Berzerker", that's the type of "heroic" achievement one can expect, where it's rare and extremely impressive, without being so absurd as to be unbelievable.

For a hero character worthy of writing amongst the untold billions of the 40k universe, that's not all that unreasonable going off just the feat in and of itself (can't comment to the specifics of the actual fight). Not something you'd expect, but not completely outside the realm of possibility either. Having a Commissar slay a Berzerker in a 40k game is not outside the realm of realm of possibility, even though he'd be at a major disadvantage. That's not particularly hugely egregious, that's certainly possible in a game.

Certainly nothing like Brothers of the Snake where a single "run of the mill" tactical squad slays literally thousands of Dark Eldar with nary a scratch.

In truth, handwaving the topic with 'it's all ridiculous' is just ignoring the problem. SM fluff has outliers. As does the fluff of all races. But that does not really make it difficult to see an average, or perhaps a median, forming anyway. One in an area that looks at least somewhat possible physically.

The problem is that SM fluff has bloated rapidly in ways the other factions have not, and this has coincided with a general fall in fluff quality & quantity for the past in recent years from mainline codex books as well (compare Waaargh! Da Orks to 7E Codex: Orks and you'll see exactly what I mean).

Space Marine's cooperative multiplayer portrays that average somewhat well, I feel, and I can assure you that said average does not constitute a lot of 3+ to hit...

It's a hack-n-slash no different from dozens of others except the skins of the characters. I would hesitate to use anything from that game (fun though it was) as being hugely accurate.

Particularly when most enemies literally do zero damage, manage to miss wildly with automatic fire from standing positions from a few feet away, and in many instances are staring at rocks half the time doing nothing or just track the player character for long periods of time without shooting...or when other SM's show up and the player character cleaves through them too. That Chainsword was certainly far more effective against the Space Marines than their Power Axes were against the Player Character.

It's a muppet mower challenge, as exists in dozens of other game like Unreal, Mass Effect 3, etc, nothing more.

I'm gonna be honest, I can't ever take these complaints seriously. Marines not being good enough, I can sort of agree with, but that's caused by the increasingly devestating weaponry that's become available to many factions.

Marines not living up to their gakky fluff? Just because the majority of 40K novels are badly written and happen to be bolter porn doesn't mean marines should become unstoppable juggernauts.

If someone really wants to do movie marines, they could just field an unbound army of all chapter masters/captains. This is exactly the sort of stuff 7th exists for!

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Could be worse.

Could be CSM, where it's "Cheaper, but worse"

Cheaper, but worse? Man our CSM codex is more expensive and worse just look at Berzerkers vs. Blood Letters when they made daemonkin, Its a mess!

It was what someone said about the fire raptor in an earlier post, he expected CSM stuff to be cheaper and worse.

Course yeah many things are just bloated expensive.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't read that book (I think, it's been like 8 years since I've read one of those books), but, just going off "Imperial Commissar kills Berzerker", that's the type of "heroic" achievement one can expect, where it's rare and extremely impressive, without being so absurd as to be unbelievable.

For a hero character worthy of writing amongst the untold billions of the 40k universe, that's not all that unreasonable going off just the feat in and of itself (can't comment to the specifics of the actual fight). Not something you'd expect, but not completely outside the realm of possibility either. Having a Commissar slay a Berzerker in a 40k game is not outside the realm of realm of possibility, even though he'd be at a major disadvantage. That's not particularly hugely egregious, that's certainly possible in a game.

Certainly nothing like Brothers of the Snake where a single "run of the mill" tactical squad slays literally thousands of Dark Eldar with nary a scratch.

You have to remember that there is literally one million Space Marines in the entire gargantuan Imperium. Less than one guy per world. And with continent-spanning cities abound, there's a lot of people in the Imperium. Each and every Space Marine is basically a special character in his own right. They are just that rare. There's likely hundreds of thousands of IG Majors for each Astartes. You must apply the 'special character' thing to Astartes too.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is that SM fluff has bloated rapidly in ways the other factions have not, and this has coincided with a general fall in fluff quality & quantity for the past in recent years from mainline codex books as well (compare Waaargh! Da Orks to 7E Codex: Orks and you'll see exactly what I mean).

Some novels are poorly written, but it does not make them less canon. We can safely ignore Custodes parrying at FTL speeds and Space Marines running fast enough to tear up the metal floor they are running on, but more sensible things can actually still be canon even if they would be found poorly written in a sense of story quality.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's a hack-n-slash no different from dozens of others except the skins of the characters. I would hesitate to use anything from that game (fun though it was) as being hugely accurate.

Not its mechanics, but its balance.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Particularly when most enemies literally do zero damage, manage to miss wildly with automatic fire from standing positions from a few feet away, and in many instances are staring at rocks half the time doing nothing or just track the player character for long periods of time without shooting...or when other SM's show up and the player character cleaves through them too. That Chainsword was certainly far more effective against the Space Marines than their Power Axes were against the Player Character.

It's a muppet mower challenge, as exists in dozens of other game like Unreal, Mass Effect 3, etc, nothing more.

Actually, in that game Shoota Boyz are surprisingly accurate - they do not fire with the wild abandon the fluff usually speaks of, but instead focus fire rather well. While their accuracy is not exactly something to boast with, it's still a far cry from the Orks we know who are more concerned with firing as loudly as possible than hitting their target.

No enemy in the game does zero damage. You can stand next to a Guardsman and let him smack you with the butt of his lasgun, and it will do very very low damage, but it will actually do damage (which it wouldn't lorewise).

The SMs you fight are hilariously resilient (capable of taking something like 9 hits from a Thunder Hammer before going down) but their AI is poorly designed just like CSM in singleplayer; they stand around and fire a burst every now and then, and if you get close they knock you away with their axe occasionally, but otherwise their combat power are accurately portrayed though their behaviour is not.

If they had an advanced AI that sprinted, rolled, charged, hosed you down with concentrated automatic fire when you left cover and all the other things you'd expect of them, they'd be extremely deadly foes and accurate representations of their background, even if you did nothing to touch their stats.

 Ashiraya wrote:


You have to remember that there is literally one million Space Marines in the entire gargantuan Imperium. Less than one guy per world. And with continent-spanning cities abound, there's a lot of people in the Imperium. Each and every Space Marine is basically a special character in his own right. They are just that rare. There's likely hundreds of thousands of IG Majors for each Astartes. You must apply the 'special character' thing to Astartes too.

Yes, they're rare. That doesn't automatically equate each of them to being a Special Character however, Tau aren't particularly hugely more numerous (a few million fire warriors vs trillions of guardsmen) and otherwise every Sister would be a Lord of War by that logic.

Yes, they're rare. But they're not all Special Characters.

Some novels are poorly written, but it does not make them less canon. We can safely ignore Custodes parrying at FTL speeds and Space Marines running fast enough to tear up the metal floor they are running on, but more sensible things can actually still be canon even if they would be found poorly written in a sense of story quality.

GW has no "canon" really. Everything GW publishes, their stance is everything is true and nothing is true.

Not its mechanics, but its balance.

It's pretty identical in balance, number of enemies, etc that I've seen in a huge number of other games. I've played Unreal games killing far more enemies than that video showed (and largely all armed much better), but I'm not going to take that as the reasonable expectation of something from that universe.

Actually, in that game Shoota Boyz are surprisingly accurate - they do not fire with the wild abandon the fluff usually speaks of, but instead focus fire rather well. While their accuracy is not exactly something to boast with, it's still a far cry from the Orks we know who are more concerned with firing as loudly as possible than hitting their target.

And the guardsmen firing literal laser weapons, hitting their targets at the speed of light, missing wildly? The way all the "shooting" NPC's stand there, fire, pause for 3 seconds, then fire again? We're talking a videogame. Both the Orks and Guardsmen likely use very similar AI in that regard.

No enemy in the game does zero damage. You can stand next to a Guardsman and let him smack you with the butt of his lasgun, and it will do very very low damage, but it will actually do damage (which it wouldn't lorewise)

The SMs you fight are hilariously resilient (capable of taking something like 9 hits from a Thunder Hammer before going down) but their AI is poorly designed just like CSM in singleplayer; they stand around and fire a burst every now and then, and if you get close they knock you away with their axe occasionally, but otherwise their combat power are accurately portrayed though their behaviour is not.

If they had an advanced AI that sprinted, rolled, charged, hosed you down with concentrated automatic fire when you left cover and all the other things you'd expect of them, they'd be extremely deadly foes and accurate representations of their background, even if you did nothing to touch their stats.

In which case the video would be defeated as if it were PC's, not AI's you were fighting, the PC would have been dead long before he ever got to the SM's.

These enemies are also coming in in drips and drabs, very little in the way of any realistic military cohesion (which would at least apply to Imperials if not the Orks), and are spoon-feeding the player.

 jasper76 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
If anything I think the problem is the fluff. I hate marine fluff because its just so over the top that it becomes silly after a point. I have no problem with named marine heros doing what they do. That's epic stuff, but 10 generic marines pasifying a whole planet. Please. Tabletop Marines are pretty close to what they should be if you actually look at them with more realistic standing army numbers.

Yeah I don't buy that one for a minute , Eldar for example have a hero that dragged an entire craftworld out of the Warp on his own, and defeated an entire Tyranid Swarm on his own.

Most Faction has things like this for the most part, an Ork Warbiker rammed through a Titan On Fire, survived, killed the crew, and took their forever flaming heads with him as trophies.

I think the most nuanced are those of the Tyranids (Who can be beaten slightly), and Tau (And even then Farsight defies that)

The Tyranid book has them losing basically every meanigful battle (of course with a good show). It's funny, even all the art in the book where they are against another army shows the other army winning.

Art imitates life?

The Tyranids have to eventually lose. Otherwise the setting ends...


The Tyranids eat all kinds of stuff in the fluff, even in their own books. People not paying attention simply fixate on the fact that they are eventually stopped, rather than all the things they ate along the way, lol.