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Hey I don't think there's been a recent discussion about this with the new dex. Most units in the army have this upgrade option available to them. It is interesting for 10 points you get a dude who is LD9 and has an extra attack. So what units should be taking this upgrade? Obviously combat units that by default give the sergeant a special cc weapon should take the upgrade for the extra attack alone. I'm really more interested in what squads would benefit from the ld bonus and how ATSKNF affects the decision to take the upgrade.

So here's some reasons I think there are to take the upgrade, please add onto or argue against the list

-MSU tac squads who don't want to run off objectives after losing a couple models

-Any squad meant for CC

-MSU dev and cent dev squads because you don't want all your heavy weapons running off the table after losing 1 or 2 models

Basically, you're paying 10pts for an 83% chance of passing a morale test vs a 72% chance of passing a morale test.

You get twice as many base attacks, but to take advantage of that you have to buy an overpriced power weapon. You're better off just buying a combiplasma.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Basically, you're paying 10pts for an 83% chance of passing a morale test vs a 72% chance of passing a morale test.

You get twice as many base attacks, but to take advantage of that you have to buy an overpriced power weapon. You're better off just buying a combiplasma.

in all situations with every unit who can take a vet sergeant?

72% to 83% means that you will pass 1 in 3 of the morale tests you would have otherwise failed. And the 10 points may be worth it on say a 250 point dev/ cent dev unit. Or a large tac squad that you want to tarpit some deathstar with?

Only assault units get vet sarges in my army for the most part. So assault marines, the occasional bike, and scouts with CC weapons.

As a general rule I avoid them, but I have put them on units that are designed to hang around eing a pain for a while such as a flamer/pod Assault squad

Here's my reasoning behind it. Any unit that you want to assault with or hold objectives with. I generally do veteran sergeant on all my marine squads apart from scouts anyway as I think the benefit outweighs the points cost. With the amount of tests you have to do from being the target of witchfire psychic powers, losing models in a unit etc I think it is too risky not to do the vet sgt upgrade.

You could use those 10 points to grab a combi weapon on a normal sarge or melta bombs for more assault geared squads. When put like that, I'd rather extra offence over an extra attack in cc and pip of LD.

I used to put the vet sergeant on my devastators to help keep them from running off the table if I lose 2 or 3 to shooting.

Now I put the sergeant up front so that he dies first (protect the heavy weapons), so the leadership doesn't matter to me anymore.

I haven't used a Vet Sergeant upgrade in a long time.

Depending on how many HQs/ Inquisitors you have in your army the leadership point may be moot. Plus marines can auto rally so falling back isn't always the end of the world.

The main problem is assault is weak this addition and most marine units are not great in assault anyway. I don't want most of my scouts or tac marine units in combat so sarge having an extra attack is a waste. I would rather take another combi weapon.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I would rather take another combi weapon.

as in a second combi-weapon so he gets 2 one-use-only shots? Never heard of anyone doing that but sounds interesting

Rx8Speed wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Basically, you're paying 10pts for an 83% chance of passing a morale test vs a 72% chance of passing a morale test.

You get twice as many base attacks, but to take advantage of that you have to buy an overpriced power weapon. You're better off just buying a combiplasma.

in all situations with every unit who can take a vet sergeant?

72% to 83% means that you will pass 1 in 3 of the morale tests you would have otherwise failed. And the 10 points may be worth it on say a 250 point dev/ cent dev unit. Or a large tac squad that you want to tarpit some deathstar with?

It's not much of a deathstar if it can't chew through a bunch of tactical marines in one phase. Most deathstars have Hit and Run or Gate of Infinity so tarpitting doesn't really work either most of the time. I do agree with your reasoning that an expensive dev squad could benefit from the upgrade and that might be the only time the upgrade is really worth it. Assault marines aren't very scary so upgrading the sarge into something slightly less embarrassing doesn't sound very appealing either.

Maybe on an Assault Squad or Biker squad, but even then it's an iffy upgrade.

A Combi-Weapon is going to give you more mileage in the long run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe if they were like Eldar sergeants and got two wounds and stupid stuff like that...

I generally don't take them, but I think for my Ravenwing bike squads I might start doing it to see how the extra attack plays out.

What's the math on just adding another body to the dev vs the upgarde. Doesn't seem worth the upgarde

Those points are better used somewhere else.

Assault Centurions should always have it, Dev Cents should take it if they are running without a librarian or tank character.

I think if you run skyhammer it's pretty damn good on the assault squads but otherwise it's limited use imho, even when you do run as a marine it's normally not an issue

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maybe if they were like Eldar sergeants and got two wounds and stupid stuff like that...

Eldar Exarchs can cost a lot more than 10 points to upgrade. They get more than just that A and W, but could cost 2 more bodies to get it.

 Skinnereal wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maybe if they were like Eldar sergeants and got two wounds and stupid stuff like that...

Eldar Exarchs can cost a lot more than 10 points to upgrade. They get more than just that A and W, but could cost 2 more bodies to get it.

An extra wound would make Veteran Sergeants a way more compelling option. But even then, Eldar Exarchs have a better statline, better weapon options, and can be cheaper than a Vet Srgt. To put it into context: a Howling Banshee Exarch /w an Executioner is WS5, strikes at I6 with S5 AP2, has 2 wounds, and is 6 points cheaper than a Vet Sgt with a power weapon. Space Marine sergeants wish they were as good as Exarchs... and still, Exarchs are sort of a questionable choice (the only time I take them is as required choice in the Aspect Host).

If a vet sergeant came with 2 wounds for +10 points, I'd take one in every squad.

If a plasma pistol cost 5 points, I'd also take on on every sergeant.

 kronk wrote:
If a vet sergeant came with 2 wounds for +10 points, I'd take one in every squad.

If a plasma pistol cost 5 points, I'd also take on on every sergeant.

Yeah, I never saw the reasoning for making plasma pistols and plasma guns costing the same amount. PGs have 2 shots (potentially) and double the range. PPs add an extra attack and can be used before charging. Doesn't seem like they are equal at all.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Basically, you're paying 10pts for an 83% chance of passing a morale test vs a 72% chance of passing a morale test.

You get twice as many base attacks, but to take advantage of that you have to buy an overpriced power weapon. You're better off just buying a combiplasma.

unless the game shifts back to cc oriented power in which case hes actually superior to the combi in every way. and with more ignore overwatch/charge from deepstrike nonsense combing out not to mention the best cc armies being saved for last with codex updates like orks and tyranids id find it hard to believe that in the future not taking cc upgrade in tandem with our shooting upgrades in some kind of balanced collection might be a lot more practical. otherwise those armies are just going to steamroll over you. your welcome to shoot all you want he will be unavailable for you to shoot at the whole fething game.

If you think that taking a vet sarge upgrade is going to save your tac marines from being obliterated once they are in combat with orks or nids, then I have some news for you and you're not going to like it...

Vet sarge is a waste of points. Hell, as a chaos player, I begrude the forced 10 point upgrade, and I don't automatically rally regardless of situation in my phase nor am I unable to be swept!

I run a skyhammer with maxed out assault squads when I get the urge to play vanilla marines, and even then, I don't bother taking any upgrades on the sarge beyond melta bombs 'cause he's going to get his gak pushed in the second anyone challenges him and I'd rather not waste the points. +1 Ld doesn't matter if you're marines and +1 attack doesn't matter when it's at str 4 ap-.

 Drasius wrote:
If you think that taking a vet sarge upgrade is going to save your tac marines from being obliterated once they are in combat with orks or nids, then I have some news for you and you're not going to like it...

Vet sarge is a waste of points. Hell, as a chaos player, I begrude the forced 10 point upgrade, and I don't automatically rally regardless of situation in my phase nor am I unable to be swept!

I run a skyhammer with maxed out assault squads when I get the urge to play vanilla marines, and even then, I don't bother taking any upgrades on the sarge beyond melta bombs 'cause he's going to get his gak pushed in the second anyone challenges him and I'd rather not waste the points. +1 Ld doesn't matter if you're marines and +1 attack doesn't matter when it's at str 4 ap-.

If I’m springing for the vet upgrade, odds are I’m also handing out a power weapon. As for the challenge issue, marine CC units are often used as bodyguard squads in my lists, so there should be a beatstick HQ there to take the challenge. This leaves the sarge free to work the opposing squad over.

There was a time when a veteran sergeant wasn't just viewed through the meta lens of points-efficiency or cost-effectiveness. It used to be a cool opportunity to add a bit of character to a tac squad.

 the_Armyman wrote:
There was a time when a veteran sergeant wasn't just viewed through the meta lens of points-efficiency or cost-effectiveness. It used to be a cool opportunity to add a bit of character to a tac squad.

At least in my opinion it wouldn't necessarily be all that fluffy. In regular C:SM chapters, if you've achieved the veteran status of a Bad Enough Dude, you are already in the veteran company. It would, however, make sense with the Unforgiven because of the different company and chapter structure. In addition to the usual 10 squads that the 3rd to 9th companies have, there are squads of Company Veterans. These are the guys who have seen maybe centuries of battle but haven't for one reason or another made it into Deathwing or the Ravenwing Black Knights. Maybe they aren't seen trustworthy enough by the Inner Circle or something as shady as that but they definitely are a group of veteran warriors within the battle and reserve companies. Regular SM companies have a few veterans who make up the company command squad but I don't think that there's enough of them to form any more units by themselves or take the command of a squad if need should arise.

Of course people will have different opinions about this but I just see the veterans and the regular battle brothers being mostly separate in more codex-adherent chapters. Being a company veteran in these chapters would be a bit of an oddity really an would be an example of freedom of choice that I don't feel marines have in their line of duty. People can play their game however they wish and maybe this desire of being in a way excepted from rising through the chapter ranks is part of the character you mean. There are of course varying degrees of veterancy (not sure if that's a real English word) but I don't think that those can really be properly described by +1 A and Ld.

It made sense in previous editions to take the Vet, but now that the regular Sgt can take all the same weapons, its moot point unless you are giving him a combat weapon.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maybe if they were like Eldar sergeants and got two wounds and stupid stuff like that...

Eldar Exarchs can cost a lot more than 10 points to upgrade. They get more than just that A and W, but could cost 2 more bodies to get it.

An extra wound would make Veteran Sergeants a way more compelling option. But even then, Eldar Exarchs have a better statline, better weapon options, and can be cheaper than a Vet Srgt. To put it into context: a Howling Banshee Exarch /w an Executioner is WS5, strikes at I6 with S5 AP2, has 2 wounds, and is 6 points cheaper than a Vet Sgt with a power weapon. Space Marine sergeants wish they were as good as Exarchs... and still, Exarchs are sort of a questionable choice (the only time I take them is as required choice in the Aspect Host).

Having said that, the veteran sergeant is toughness 4, has 1 more attack than the exarch and has a better armour save. Naturally, in a 1v1, she'd still give him a good kicking, but I'd actually advocate sergeant models for ALL races jumping up to 2 wounds. I think it would make them much more attractive options. They might even stand a chance in a challenge! (gasp)

 Btothefnrock wrote:
It made sense in previous editions to take the Vet, but now that the regular Sgt can take all the same weapons, its moot point unless you are giving him a combat weapon.

I hated the days where if you wanted to give wargear to a sarge, you needed to pony up the points for the vet upgrade first. I just wanted to give the dev sarge an auspex, not turn him into a CC machine!

 Tarvitz77 wrote:

Having said that, the veteran sergeant is toughness 4, has 1 more attack than the exarch and has a better armour save. Naturally, in a 1v1, she'd still give him a good kicking, but I'd actually advocate sergeant models for ALL races jumping up to 2 wounds. I think it would make them much more attractive options. They might even stand a chance in a challenge! (gasp)

Exarchs have 2 base attacks, so the vet sergeant doesn't have an advantage there.

I would advocate 2W Vet Sergeants, if only because it would make them a lot more effective in challenges. A 1W sergeant gets minced by a banshee with an Executioner. A 2W vet sergeant has an almost 50% chance of surviving the first round of fighting, and so fighting back himself (the rest of his squad will get murdered by the banshees, but the one veteran would be able to hold his ground - which makes sense to me thematically).

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tarvitz77 wrote:

Having said that, the veteran sergeant is toughness 4, has 1 more attack than the exarch and has a better armour save. Naturally, in a 1v1, she'd still give him a good kicking, but I'd actually advocate sergeant models for ALL races jumping up to 2 wounds. I think it would make them much more attractive options. They might even stand a chance in a challenge! (gasp)

Exarchs have 2 base attacks, so the vet sergeant doesn't have an advantage there.

I would advocate 2W Vet Sergeants, if only because it would make them a lot more effective in challenges. A 1W sergeant gets minced by a banshee with an Executioner. A 2W vet sergeant has an almost 50% chance of surviving the first round of fighting, and so fighting back himself (the rest of his squad will get murdered by the banshees, but the one veteran would be able to hold his ground - which makes sense to me thematically).

Would making vet sergeants 2W also apply to Sternguard and Vanguard since both of those squads are just made up of veterans? What about terminators?

I'm certainly not against the idea, but it could change more than just the sgt in tactical squads.