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What is the area of effect for the slaanesh super cheese minor psychic power siren?  I know the target is self, but area of effect is what, all my troops?  If so, if some of my troops have say collars of khorne, can they try to dispel the effect?

man that is really bothering you! sorry i cheesed you with it.

anyways there is no area of effect. its range is "self" so a collar of khorne wont stop it, because its not affecting the collars wearer.

and your army is not affected be the power , it simply removes the model from being a valid target. its still in the game so you can drift a template onto it. or use librarians.

The target is self, so unless you can negate any power cast(ala physic hood) deal with it. EC doesn't have a whole lot going for it other then that.

EC doesn't have a whole lot going for it other then that.

Sorry, this statement made me laugh. My EC are undefeated with only a few ties thrown in. EC is the strongest of the cult lists, infact with the exception of IW, its probably the strongest army in the book.

Anyway, no color of Khorne wont help you. You need psychic hoods, or witchhunter/deamon hunters to stop Siren.

I'd like to see a Khornate Librarian.  So that leaves templates.  They wouldn't work either, because you infiltrate and fleet them right next to me.  I could wait for you to fail a psychic test, but how often does that happen?

I can live with the init 10 power fist, or the rending attacks, but the infiltrating, siren power move is plain abusive...  If it only worked against one unit, that would be fine, but the entire army sucks

Of course Siren has an AoE... it covers every enemy model in LOS of the siren bearer. Now of course only a punk is gonna take six minor psychic powers anyways so don't sweat it. So CoK does indeed negate siren on a 2+.

BloodyT, I don't follow. The range of the power is "Self," not "every model that can draw LOS."

How can you say the model is not affected when it can neither shoot or launch an assault while siren is in effect against it? It seems to obvious to me that the AoF covers all models affected by this MPP.

if someone who takes six MPP is a punk, then what would you call someone who takes two Lts. with six MPP each?  I played against it on sunday, it was not very fun.

I agree with you, BT, but my ruling was overruled last time i played this.

but it affects every model in my army.  it has no actual effect on his model.

but it affects every model in my army. it has no actual effect on his model.

So not being shot or assaulted has no affect on his models? I beg to differ.

However, I'd personally let a collared unit ignore its affects based on intent and fairness (not RAW as I agree with ohers in that regard). Then again, i'd never play the siren prince either.

Posted By winterman on 05/10/2006 12:39 PM
So not being shot or assaulted has no affect on his models? I beg to differ.

In the same vein, any psychic power can be shown to affect any model on the board.

"Well, I was going to move my Unit A over here next turn, but if you use FotA on my Unit B and they get pinned, you will force me to move my Unit A over here instead to protect that flank. See you affected Unit A and they have a CoK! 2+ cancel, sucker!"

Thats a dangerous road to travel.

blue loki

Your very existence is a bane to all who play fairly and are on the square.

This is an interesting rules discussion, I think this came up with Sisters (they ignor Minor Powers used against them).

Here is how I view it, and I don't have any RAW to back it up and I am probably wrong. But basically Siren affects your models in that they are prohibited from Shooting or Assaulting it. Therefore that power is affecting those models and if they can cancel it, they should have the ability to.

I have seen it argued that Siren only effects the model who has is directly, but if that was the case, I should be able to shoot or assault it as normal because Siren only effects that model. You see the circular reasoning there.

Codex: Witch Hunters, Page 18

"Minor psychic powers have no effect on Adepta Sororitas units or characters at all."

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Page 56

"Effect: The psyker assumes the appearance of..."

The only problem I see is that it can be claimed the effect is on the psyker, not the Adepta Sororitas.  However, I would have to say that Siren does have an effect on the opponent via the restriction of their shooting and assaulting, and in this case the Siren would have no effect on Adepta Sororitas units or characters.

 

And CoK says targetted or area of effect.  My entire army is under the area of effect for the power, as once it's cast no one in my army can shoot or assault them.  therefore if I have one model in my army with CoK they should be able to nullify it. 

I can see how that would work, Khorne is supposed to be the bane of all psykers (don't consider this a fluff justification, just stating my opinion).  However, I think that CoK nullifies the effects on the model with CoK.  The Adeptas Sororitas can shoot at a model with Siren, but the Storm Troopers in the same list can't.  This is probably a similar situation.

So, models wearing a COK would be unaffected, but everyone else would be?

so what if an AC had a collar, would he be the only one able to attack, or would the entire unit be able to?

Here's another similar example:

Hive Tyrants can take the Warp Field psychic power.  Does the Collar of Khorne affect this when fighting a Hive Tyrant? 

Fuel for the fire.

Posted By winterman on 05/10/2006 12:39 PM
So not being shot or assaulted has no affect on his models? I beg to differ.



In the same vein, any psychic power can be shown to affect any model on the board.
"Well, I was going to move my Unit A over here next turn, but if you use FotA on my Unit B and they get pinned, you will force me to move my Unit A over here instead to protect that flank. See you affected Unit A and they have a CoK! 2+ cancel, sucker!"
Thats a dangerous road to travel.

I was mearly pointing out that it was erroneuous to say that the siren prince wasn't affected. Of course there's a slippery slope we can slide on without knowing what 'affect' really means in game terms. RAW doesn't really help so we are kinda stuck with either the goofy dice-off or hopefully a simple discussion on what is the logical intent of the rules.

Personally, your example of affect is to broad to be even considered. In game terms, an affect should be immediate and direct, otherwise you delve into the realm of possible effects that you can 't be sure if they will have an actual affect (like your pinning example). If a power or ability protects them from the affects of a psychic power, it should be a direct affect to the model itself (damage, ability to move or attack, affect to its stats, etc) and not indirect (like the Iorek's HT example). Again, this isn't a RAW interpretation, merely a logical viewpoint.

GW does not define what they mean when they say AoE unlike other games such as WM. I think the rules for CoK are the one instance where GW actually uses the term AoE. It should be easy enough, but of course that is not the case.

Will this ever go away??? This is a pandora's box of a thread just waiting to explode. What about Grey Knights. And someone taking siren then prompts another player to take his grey knights when he normally wouldn't, and on to infinity!!! Somebody help me out dragging this out to the ridiculous!

Nevermind...

We've been over this topic a million times. The truth of the matter is that everything you do in a game will have an effect on any other model.

Eg.

I use Siren, stopping your Guard squad from killing my Prince. Next turn the Prince charges and kills the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen were standing before a unit of GK's, and now the GK's are exposed - the Siren has had an effect on them, so should they get a save against it?

The answer is no. The only way to determine effect is by who the power is targeting. If you are the target of a power, you are in its area of effect. The only target with Siren is 'self', therefore the only person Siren has any effect on is the caster.

It's the same as Fueled by Pain. GK's don't get extra saves against attacks given by Fueled by Pain now do they? Fueled by Pain only affects the caster, much like Siren.

Personally, you could fix Siren by making the target 'Entire Board', but it is not that way. It is Self, therefore the only person who gets a save against it, is the caster, and why the caster would want to save against it is another story...

BYE

I have to disagree with you there. I have already stated my opinion as to why. Simply stating a power effects everything is no a valid reason to say siren cannot be negated by CoK, plus you have even admitted siren does indeed include the wearer of CoK in its AoE. Sorry.

Here is the difinative question of this thread.

Does Siren have a direct effect on models with the ability to regate it?

I am of the opinion that it does. What is Siren doing essentially, stopping the other players models from shooting or assault it. That is a direct effect. If you where to argue that Siren only effects the model that has it, than what is stopping models from shooting and assaulting that model. The arguement that every action effects everymodel is ludicrous. We are not talking about round-about changes in the battlefield, we are talking about one unit versus one model on a individual basis.

there's no denying that the target is self, that is in black and white. 

I'm just saying that if my my models are affected by the power (ie not being able to shoot at or assault siren unit), then they are in an area of affect.  And since it affects every model in my army, every model with a CoK should get to dispell it-for instance if I had a unit of 5 flesh hounds, I'd get 5 tries.

"I have to disagree with you there. I have already stated my opinion as to why. Simply stating a power effects everything is no a valid reason to say siren cannot be negated by CoK, plus you have even admitted siren does indeed include the wearer of CoK in its AoE. Sorry."

because you don't like it, doesn't mean you're right. if a model is wearing the Cok, he's still not the target of "siren".
the caster is the target, not the model with Cok.

Posted By BloodyT on 05/10/2006 12:58 PM
Drivel

Hmm, I didn't mean to wound you so Mr T.  Please accept my apology.

Next time we play I'll be sure to first pick up a copy of Codex: Bloody Snoog.

 

GAH! Not this damn topic again!!! *Hits the escape button to avoid the black hole* Capt K