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just by what is written, siren does not effect your models. it removes the siren model from being a valid target. he has not affected your models. they simply dont have a choice to target him.

now if an inquisitor lord uses hammerhand (doubles his strength), then in your world the COK will negate his strength bonus ?

what about that eldar power to re-roll a miss ? can they not reroll when firing at COK units ?

come on, lets stick to what is written. i alway see these screwballs like bloodyT agrue about the intent of the power/rule or whatever. but here is clearly written rule with a clearly written intent, yet he is still arguing against it.  It's hard to believe he beat 100,000 other sperm.

So you're saying that making my models unable to assault a unit that is 1" away has no effect on my models?

hammerhand is different.  it only modifies your strength  it doesn't affect anyone other than the inquisitor.

same with the eldar power, it only affects the unit. not the enemy.

"just by what is written, siren does not effect your models. it removes the siren model from being a valid target."

Oh yeah... God I have been so stupid all along!!! Thanks for your razor keen sense of infallible logic. [/sarcasm]

 

^^|^^

So you're saying that making my models unable to assault a unit that is 1" away has no effect on my models?

yes that is what im saying. you dont get  to target them because it is no longer a VALID target, but you are not effected by the actual power.

hammerhand is different.  it only modifies your strength  it doesn't affect anyone other than the inquisitor.

siren only effects my model, not yours. it does effect the models getting hit with ST8 instead of st4

same with the eldar power, it only affects the unit. not the enemy.

it does too affect the guys getting hit!!!

this is one of the few clearly written rules that follws its own fluff and is powerful. i think bloddyt's brain burst when this question first came up.there is no loop-hole , its just a punchy power.

What interests me, Sun Tzu, is how exactly you come to the conclusion that Hammerhand is "different".  How?  Your argument here seems to be that indirect effects (as opposed to targeted effects) are subject to nullification by CoK.  Hammerhand may "only double the str of the user", but Siren "only removes the model as a valid target".

Okay... so Siren makes it so opponents cannot target you.  Hammerhand makes it so that opponent's models are struck at Str x 2.  How are these different?

As for Mahu... you use the phrase "direct effect" without defining it.  I think the real question here is "What constitutes an 'effect', as that concept pertains to 'area of effect'."  If you can prove that an "effect" in this context is exactly what Siren produces, then of course CoK may negate it.  No further discussion necessary.

As for the folks that have lowered themselves to insulting people who've taken the time to voice their opinions, please read the stickies for the forum.  Refute the argument, not the arguer.

Pelarr.

To me, it's different because hammerhand targets self and only affects self.  It would be the same if when you cast hammerhand on yourself all opponents toughness dropped by half.

Even though siren only targets self, it affects opposing models, even if it doesn't say it does.

so, yes I think that if a minor psychic power  affects all units im my army, I should get to dispel them.

Is there actually a definition for area of effect?

I don't think that "area of effect" needs to be defined, as it seems to be defined quite nicely by logic and by the (pending) definition of "effect" -- it is the area within which said effect occurs.  We can talk about that if you'd like, but it seems a safe assumption to make.

What is the effect of Siren on opposing models, in your opinion?  I don't see a change in opponent statline from Siren, so while I acknowledge your Hammerhand response, I don't see how your example pertains: Hammerhand and Siren both effect, by their rules, only the caster.  Siren does not halve an opponent's str or reduce their leadership.  It removes the caster as a valid target.  How does this effect the opponent's models any more or less than your doubling your own strength?

I agree with your saying that if models are effected by a minor psychic power, you can use CoK to dispel them.  No problem there.

Pelarr.

It affects the casters oponents by denying them shots or assaults against him. Look how the power is worded, it doesn't say that it removes the model as a valid target, it says that the model may not be targeted. That is a direct affect on your oponents model because they are prohibited from doing anything against you.

If the power prevents your oponents models from doing something or alter their statline, that is a direct effect against those models. Period. If it wasn't effecting them than they should be able to do anything they would normally do, which negates the reason for taking Siren.

"Okay... so Siren makes it so opponents cannot target you.  Hammerhand makes it so that opponent's models are struck at Str x 2.  How are these different?"

@ Pelarr - I hope your question was rhetorical. So I see you like to use intent to decipher rules and that is very interesting.

BYE

There are really only two ways to logically interpret this. One is H.B.M.C.'s which is probably the more correct way based on the customary way that things work in 40K. Equally rationally valid, although not customarily so, is that all minor psychic powers instantly become unavailable/completly unusable in the face of Grey Knights/Sisters. This is based on the definition of affect and the logical chain that it must have if one does not use the assumptions (which are valid) of H.B.M.C. One should note that it only affects specifically defined minor psychic powers, and not psychic powers as a whole. Unfortunately I do not have a Chaos Codex on hand to look at the exact wording of Collar of khorne, but if someone could post a quote, we should be able to sort it out quick.

let all agree on a few things.
1. siren is has no area affect, its range is self.

your arguments seem to be "because i cant do something, i am being targeted" but you cant prove a negative. you were not allowed to target the model, so you were not denied the chance to attack it because it was never a valid target for your unit to select.


If it wasn't effecting them than they should be able to do anything they would normally do, which negates the reason for taking Siren.


again, the rule is clearly written from a rules and fluff point a view. this should be one of the easy questions to answer.

cok: fluff,fluff etc etc

"psychic abilities that target the wearer or include him in their area of effect are nullified and will not work on a d6 roll of 2+ "

does siren target him ? no
does it include him in the area of effect ? no
does it stop him from shooting at the model with siren ? yes
is this becoming a bad post ? yes

I think area of effect does need to be defined.  CoK says targetted or in area of effect.  is it a template, a models base, the entire board?  Is it a term from 3rd ed?

OK, if you want to stay on the hammerhand/siren debate.  hammerhand is cast on self as is siren.  hammerhand enhances strength, siren does what to the model casting? nothing, unless he fails his psychic test.  it cannot be targeted by my army, therefore if I'm not allowed to target him, then I am affected. 

maybe we're both affected?

BloodyT: I was asking how they were different. I haven't said one word about intent.

Mahu: That's a fair start -- now we've got a definition. Can you think of any other examples of your exact definition for "direct effect" with which to support it? I think that would be the next logical step.

DarkHellion: HBMC's interpretation seems to be the best supported by previous / extant rules. If someone could find the paragraph(s) for CoK and let everyone see them, that would be great.

Are your models affected? Certainly.

Are they effected? No.

Therefore, no save.

feear of the darkness = area effect 12"

siren has no area effect . effect on the game ? yes , but not an "area effect" in fact are models that are across the board behind cover effected by siren ? no because its not an area effect. if they had listed it as area of effect = "the whole board" then we would have to agree with you. but agian, you cant prove a negative.

"1. siren is has no area affect, its range is self."

Sorry I don't agree with you here. This is your opinion and you have not provided any factual basis to support this claim. Any enemy model in LOS of the siren character that is unable to target it or launch an assault against it is affected, so the area of effect covers all such enemy models. This is the RAW and correct interpretation.

BYE

other then the chaos codex stating that the range = self , i guess you're right. i would say that is what is written so thats how its played here in the real world, no matter how you play it in your happy little world.

Just an FYI Mr. Cobert please read the Siren power again. The Target is self. The description of the effect follows. So yes it can be defended against by certain items of wargear like a CoK or the SOB shield of faith and the DH Aegis. You keep saying the range is self, when infact the power has no range. However it does have an area of effect. That area of effect is any model within LOS and attempting to target the caster. Either way, this post is getting lame and I have no idea why I jumped in on it again when I said I wouldn't. This issue has been raised and disputed over and over again. If you claim your arguement is correct, then by that logic, the Aegis and the SoF don't work against it, when they clearly do...

Capt K

Here is the difinative question of this thread.

Does Siren have a direct effect on models with the ability to regate it?

That's not the question at all.

There is no such thing as 'direct' and 'indirect' effects - that exists no where in the rules. There is only 'effect'. Now, as we've said, everything affects everything, so the only thing we can look to, is who the target of the power is. We can only assume that the model/s that will be under the effects of any given power will be the target of that power. In the case of Siren, the target is 'Self'.

You don't get more cut and dry than that, unless you begin adding imaginary qualifiers such as 'direct' and 'indirect'.

BYE

"I think area of effect does need to be defined."

You're right - the area of effect does need to be defined. Luckily for us, it has. Its area of effect is 'self'.

BYE

I think that from now on, instead of our motto being "Dakka Toughguy, Just play better!" we should adopt this new slogan.

Siren Area of Effect, All of Dakka

Does that mean I get a save against it?

BYE

The problem of Siren comes from the simple definition of affect, which literally means to influence. A model, logically, does not have to be in the area of affect of another models powers to be affected by it. Quite literally the existence of another model on the board has some affect on any other existant model. IE any time I shoot a model of yours, it has some minor, but clearly existing affect on every other model in that it races the probability of them being fired upon in the future. The problem with this, as H.B.M.C. lays out is that it is the ultimate slippery slope, as you then end up with a deterministic chain that goes completely haywire. Taken to the logical, but absurd conclusion, the simple fact that the Demonhunters codex is written means that Siren cannot work, as it would affect whether or not a Grey Knight will be played upon the table or not. As this is so patently absurd, H.B.M.C.s interpratation is clearly the preferable.

What really cracks me up is reading all the replies from the self righteous who are always carrying on about how great RAW is but then they turn around use intent to explain something the way they want it to be. I am laughing so loud snot shot out me nose!

BYE

maybe we all have a different version of the codex. mine does not have anything listed as "area of effect" for siren. so just going by what is written, there is not "area of effect" no matter how much you want it to be.
at least in my codex.

Okay now it is obvious you do not have a clue what is going on so I will just ignore you from now on.

BYE

Oh.
Snap.
He told you.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/11/2006 10:19 PM
Here is the difinative question of this thread.

Does Siren have a direct effect on models with the ability to regate it?

That's not the question at all.

There is no such thing as 'direct' and 'indirect' effects - that exists no where in the rules. There is only 'effect'. Now, as we've said, everything affects everything, so the only thing we can look to, is who the target of the power is. We can only assume that the model/s that will be under the effects of any given power will be the target of that power. In the case of Siren, the target is 'Self'.

You don't get more cut and dry than that, unless you begin adding imaginary qualifiers such as 'direct' and 'indirect'.

BYE

I only added the qualifier, because your whole arguement is ludicrous. Basically what you are saying is that Siren only have one target, the model using in and then not saying anything else. No power has a clearly defineded area of effect. So there is only one question, does the power effect models with the ability to negate it. If the power is preventing a model from doing anything that it couldn't normally do, I would call that an effect, wouldn't you?

This whole "well ever model effects every model" arguement is stupid, because it is abstract and has no bearing in a logical rules discussion.

The whole "siren only targets the model using it" arguement is shallow because it doesn't even address the issue of the term effect.

Notice the CoK discription, it mentions two conditions that it can be used. The first is when a power targets a model with one, which doesn't apply to this arguement because Siren targets the model that uses it. The second is any power which includes those models within the area it effects. That is the arguement, Siren effects those models because it prevents them from doing what they would normally be able to do, therefore they can negate it.

That is why I said it before and I will say it again, If Siren does not effect other models than they should be able to shoot and assault  normally. You can't have it both ways.

No power has a clearly defineded area of effect

really ?
fear of the darkenss: 12 inch area of it effect.
psychic duel :battlefield area of its effect
weaver of fates: battlefield

i could go on and on.... so yes we see what the range/area is in each instance

now your argument is that anyone who choses to target the siren model is effected by siren. i assume this is what you mean? models who didnt have LOS to the siren model are uneffected. yes ?


now i see it, you can not  be effected by the siren model  because you can not select the siren model as a target.

rules as written support this, intent with the lame fluff as written supports this.