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now i see it, you can not be effected by the siren model because you can not select the siren model as a target.

Really? The prohibition of a model targeting another model because of a Power is not an effect of said power. Wow.

Posted By Mahu on 05/12/2006 9:55 AM

This whole "well ever model effects every model" arguement is stupid, because it is abstract and has no bearing in a logical rules discussion.

I see you do not claim that argument to be illogical, which is good: H.B.M.C.'s point is entirely logical and is the only logical result of this matter.

I am sorry that you are unable to logically work through slightly abstract matters. Do I understand you to be saying that if you cannot immediately see the direct results of something, that we cannot logically work through what is occurring? I am extremely glad that people don't follow your view, because if they did, we would never have higher math, or quantum physics, or environmental sciences, or [fill in the blank].

What I am saying (and why an I still posting in this thread, I would have more fun shooting myself in the foot) is that abstract matters have no purpose in a rules discussion. Either the power effects the model or it doesn't. HBMC was saying something that has nothing to do with the RAW. It was an invalid arguement because it wasn't even discussing the way to two rules interact. CoK has the ability to negate powers that "include it within it's area of effect". Siren effects other models by denying them the ability to shoot or assault this model "removed as a valid target". Therefore CoK can negate Siren. Flesh hounds go to assault a model with Siren, Siren is a power that says they can't, they are effected by a power that is preventing them from doing something so they try to negate it, if they do than they charge. Its that simple.

"H.B.M.C.'s point is entirely logical and is the only logical result of this matter."

Just because it is logical does not make it valid. For instance if you are hungry you could eat your neighbor's baby but no one does this. Just so we can listen to load of donkey dung here (which is so often the case) but we do not have to accept it either.

BY(T)E (ME)

I think one thing that people are confusing is Range and Area of Effect. They are two different things. If they were the same then Tiggy's Hood could double the range of the Fear of Darkness power, when that was clearly shown in a different post according to the RAW that you can't? So Mr. Cobert do you acknowledge that and agree or disagree. If you agree, then your argument doesn't hold. The bottomline is that Target: Self is different than the next set of sentences in the rule which is the effect. Notice the description of the effect has nothing to do with the caster and everything to do with preventing units from targeting... Capt K

Just as an additional FYI, as a Slaneesh player myself, I think Siren is a crutch that people use in games because they know that they can spring it on people in games that their may not know how contentious it is. Sort of a "Gotcha!" type of stunt. As a Slaneesh player if you need Siren to win your games you need to work on your tactics and strategies...Slaneesh works just fine without it and I for one am glad that the majority of the tournies I go to do not allow minor psychic powers at all...unless of course you play in the Gladiator at Adepticon....hehe. Capt K

here is what i am saying.

you can not  be affected by the siren "power"  because you can not select the siren caster/model as a valid target.

in the normal sequence of the game, its impossible for you to select it as a target and make yourself effected by it. can you use a collar of khorne to cancel siren if you unit is behind terrain with no LOS ? nope.
could you then move that unit through the terrain close to the siren and then use COK ? i say nope, but you guys are saying yes. i am not targetting you, i dont have an area affect for you to cancel and you cant select me as a target if the power is inactive. all 3 things work against your arguments.

here is what we agree on
1) it does not target your model.
2)it does not have an area of affect listed. if it had an area of affect it would be listed as such. like other powers in the same codex are.
3) it sucks to be on the recieving end of a demon with siren

but nowhere in the rules does it say what/how or if it has an area effect. until it does we can assume that the rules as written stand.

and yes i admit siren is lame, but its very funny

Posted By BloodyT on 05/12/2006 10:50 AM
"H.B.M.C.'s point is entirely logical and is the only logical result of this matter."

Just because it is logical does not make it valid. For instance if you are hungry you could eat your neighbor's baby but no one does this. Just so we can listen to load of donkey dung here (which is so often the case) but we do not have to accept it either.

BY(T)E (ME)

Dude: it's a discussion on an internet board about a minor rule in 40k, not a debate over how we're going to cure cancer. Enhance your calm and your manners. Go get a soda, hang with some friends, and find yourself some cope.   

Look syr8766 I am not mad about it. I just say what I think. If you think I am outspoken and very opinionated then pls feel free to join the club.

Bloody, you are confusing intent based ruling with customary basis of ruling. When we read a rule, by custom we do not use archaic definitions of the words used but use the modern definitions. This is very different from saying that the author intent somehow plays into it. And actually being logical implicitely makes it valid, what it does not make it is practical, which is exactly why H.B.M.C.'s view should be used, as the other valid viewpoint is completely impractical.
And Jerehmy, www.dictionary.com, search for affect. Please come back after that, because even bloody is schooling you, and that's just sad.

And Jerehmy, www.dictionary.com, search for affect. Please come back after that, because even bloody is schooling you, and that's just sad.

i assume you mean me JEREMY, but yeah if bloddy is schooling me then that is sad if not a bit "inconceivable" effect or affect who cares ? im still right.

1. If a Flesh hound has LOS to the Siren model, and is not able to charge the model, the flesh hound is being affected by the power.

2. If the Flesh hound is being affected by the power the flesh hound is in the power's AoE.

3. CoK is able to negate any power that include the CoK model in it's AoE.

4. Therefore CoK is able to negate Siren.

I don't see the problem here.

Range and AoE are two different things.

*Edited to be explicit

Mahu said it best.

Mine vantage from this fence seems ever more precarious...

So you claim that "being affected by a power" is the same as being "in the power's AoE." Interesting. Not a direct correlation. Now, please rebut (With Logic!) H.B.M.C.'s point. If you can rebut his point, then we'll have a discussion.

I already have addresseded HBMC's point. What the power targets is not the same as what the power effects. And argueing that every model effects another doe not effect this arguement. What do the two rules say? How do they interact? Those are the questions that should be first and foremost on your mind and I, as well as others, have already answered those questions.

You have come nowhere close to addressing his point. His point is that the "area of effect" of Siren is "self". The power changes certain characteristics of that "area of effect" so that "self" may no longer be targeted, but is after the effect of the spell has occurred.

Your theory is based on the premise that "area of effect" is equivalent to "all areas that the power has an effect on." As demonstrated, all powers have an effect on everything on the table, so under your theory the area of effect for every power is the entire table. This turns a CoK into an uber force hood, and in all other ways does not comport with the rules of the game.

I have a wonderful example of this type of situation, in law. "Consumer Fraud" is equivalent to "fraud" in the same way that "area of effect" is to the "area that is effected by a power." Equate the two at your peril - they may intersect, but not necessarily.

So we're split, with no definitive answer, great... God I hope I don't have to play Jeremy tomorrow, we'll both end up with 0 sportsmanship...

You have come nowhere close to addressing his point. His point is that the "area of effect" of Siren is "self". The power changes certain characteristics of that "area of effect" so that "self" may no longer be targeted, but is after the effect of the spell has occurred.

The area of effect is not "self". The target of the power is "self" but that has nothing to do with which models are affected by Siren and whether those models can negate it.

Your theory is based on the premise that "area of effect" is equivalent to "all areas that the power has an effect on." As demonstrated, all powers have an effect on everything on the table, so under your theory the area of effect for every power is the entire table. This turns a CoK into an uber force hood, and in all other ways does not comport with the rules of the game.

That is no where near what I said. Your argueing a phrase out of a rule and not the whole rule. In order for the Color of Khorne to work, it has to have one of two things: be targeted by a Psychic power or be in a Psychic powers "area of effect". So that equates to whether or not the model is affected by the Psychic power. I argue that Sirens area of afect are the models that can no longer shoot or assault that model. They are affected by the power, if they weren't they could do anything they would normally be able to do.

I have a wonderful example of this type of situation, in law. "Consumer Fraud" is equivalent to "fraud" in the same way that "area of effect" is to the "area that is effected by a power." Equate the two at your peril - they may intersect, but not necessarily.

What are you even saying, Consumer Fraud is a specific type of the greater category fraud, yet "area of effect" and "area that is effected (by a power)" are the exact same thing.

What you haven't proven yet, is that models with a CoK aren't effected by Siren. There are all these arguements how Siren only effects the model using it, whether the target is "self" or the area of effect is "self". If you want to play it that way, fine, as long as I can shoot and assault that model as normal, because effectively what you are saying is that Siren only works on your own model and doesn't effect mine at all, so why would mine be restricted at all.

"1. If a Flesh hound has LOS to the Siren model, and is not able to charge the model, he is being affected by the power.

2. If the Flesh hound is being affected by the power he is in the power's AoE.

3. CoK is able to negate any power that include the CoK model in it's AoE.

4. Therefore CoK is able to negate Siren.

I don't see the problem here."

the target of the fleshound was affected by the siren "power".
the siren "power" makes the target, an invalid target.

i agree. i don't see a problem, either.

I only added the qualifier, because your whole arguement is ludicrous.

Translation:

I don't agree with you, but I have no actual rules-based argument so I am going to make things up to support my case.

Just flaming people because you have nothing better to say is one thing, but having to do what essentially amounts to lying to make a point is another.
 

Basically what you are saying is that Siren only have one target, the model using in and then not saying anything else

Well... yes. Because that's what the rules say.

Target: Self.

It does not get more cut and dry than that. You not liking that has nothing to do with it.,

No power has a clearly defineded area of effect.

Lie.
 

So there is only one question, does the power effect models with the ability to negate it.

Your conclusion is following a false premise. Powers do have clearly defined targets, areas of effect, ranges, etc. In the case of Siren, it is SELF. How hard is this to understand?

If the power is preventing a model from doing anything that it couldn't normally do, I would call that an effect, wouldn't you?

Then wounds caused by a model using Fueld by Pain can be saved against? What about Veil of Time? What about other minor powers that grant new abilities to the owner (like Siren) that affect/have an effect upon enemy troops?

When I get home and actually have my Codex on hand I'm going to find every minor power that functions like Siren and show you just how absurd your (untruthful) argument is... not that I need to, you are, after all, claiming that no power has a clearly defined targets. Anyone with eyes and basic comprehension skills can see that that is false.

This whole "well ever model effects every model" arguement is stupid, because it is abstract and has no bearing in a logical rules discussion.

Of course it's stupid. It's the reason I brought it up. But just because it hampers your 'argument' doesn't mean you can just dismiss it out of hand.

As we have been over before, everything in 40K affects everything else, so if we go by what you're saying Siren (and any Minor Power for that matter) would never be able to be used against a force including Grey Knights because the use of the power, no matter its actual effect, would still have an effect on the Grey Knights.

This is, of course, completely idiotic. You cannot just include one model in your army and stop all minor powers from being used, so we have to look at the area of effect/target of each power to work out who the power has an effect on. Siren has one target - Self - and once the power is active it grants its user a new ability, the ability to not be targeted by other people in much the same way as, say, Fueld by Pain grants an ability that turns hits/wounds/whatever in close combat into additional attacks.

The whole "siren only targets the model using it" arguement is shallow because it doesn't even address the issue of the term effect.

Shallow or not it is better than simply inventing evidence to suit your argument.

BYE

I never invented evidence, and I never disagreed with you that Siren Targets self.

The problem is, CoK gives two stipulations on whether or not you can use it Here they are for the third time:

1) Any power that targets the model wearing the CoK

2) Any power which includes the model in its area of effect.

Siren is not like Fueled by Pain or several of the other powers you listed. Those powers do in fact target the user and only modifies the user. As you say Siren does.

If the power is preventing a model from doing anything that it couldn't normally do, I would call that an effect, wouldn't you?

Then wounds caused by a model using Fueld by Pain can be saved against? What about Veil of Time? What about other minor powers that grant new abilities to the owner (like Siren) that affect/have an effect upon enemy troops?

When I get home and actually have my Codex on hand I'm going to find every minor power that functions like Siren and show you just how absurd your (untruthful) argument is... not that I need to, you are, after all, claiming that no power has a clearly defined targets. Anyone with eyes and basic comprehension skills can see that that is false.

You never addressed my point. The powers you listed have no effect on my models, i.e. stopping them from doing something or hurting them in some way. Sure you could argue that the extra attacks, or re-rolls you get have an effect on said models but as you said that's stupid. Siren is different as it has a direct effect against the models, so in essence the area of effect of Siren is the models that can no longer target them. That is why I added "direct". The powers that you listed do not directly effect my models they only modify the model using it, Siren directly effects my models because I can no longer shoot or assault it. Please list the powers that might help you point, but as you can see you are only wasting your time and not even addressing the arguement.

"2) Any power which includes the model in its area of effect."

the only way it would effect your model is if it was a conjoined twin to the target!
40k ain't your moma. they aren't going to change rules the more you whine about it!

siren does not affect your models.

you the player, can choose to target the siren model and force siren to have a effect on your models.

except for the fact that you cant select the siren model as a target,without breaking the rules, so you cant force your models to become affected. they ignore the model, just as the rules say they do.

You still are having a hard time understanding a very simple concept.

The very fact that I cannot target your SIren model is an effect on my models, that is why CoK can negate it. Yes Siren targets the user and yes it removes the user as a valid target. But that still effects my model, and it is the Psychic power that is doing it, not indirectly like adding more attacks, or anything else that adds to the model using a power. It is effecting models that have the ability to negate it, it is that simple.

Anyway, I am done with this thread. you guys can continue to whine and cry without ever presenting a good arguement, or even countering my arguement. Just randomly try and insult me.

This is just a game and if you guys want to fluster your feathers over it, have fun. Me, I am going to be an adult and not give a damn.

"siren does not affect your models."

jeremy jeremy jeremycorbutt! If a model cannot target or assault an enemy model with siren that it would have been able to otherwise definitely affects said models. As they say you can lead a donkey to the water but you cannot make it drink.

I have already explained succintly why HMBC is wrong and why I am right

That may be the case. I?m honestly not sure, as the thread wasn?t very interesting at that point so I just sort of hummed along and made jazz hands whenever everybody else did. All I know is that HBMC is always right. Note that doesn?t prevent you being right as well, even if your views are diametrically opposed. It?s like wave/particle duality or the mystery of the Trinity; paradoxes exist, so HBMC is right even if he?s wrong.

Regardless, you seem to be misinterpreting my interest in this thread. I?m not looking for answers; the Siren/GK question is an antediluvian conflict that had been tackled by many, many times even before it reached critical mass and caused the Precambrian extinction. No- I?m here for the piss-gargling contest born of that original question. Spastic flailings, gigantic egos, passive-aggressive posturing and wall-to-wall infuriated hambeasts- this thread has everything a discerning gentleman needs for an afternoon?s entertainment. Answers- not so much. But honestly, who cares? I?m here for two reasons, the second of which is giggles.

?go back and read everything I posted here. You'll be glad you did too

You?re quite correct about that.

How about we roll a D6;

on a 4+ BloodyV is right, but gets his eye-sockets turned over to the OT Crowd for untold horrors. (Occulopulation)

and on a 2-3, Triggerbaby mounts the other cheerleaders, and we get some funny pictures and BloodyR heads back to his parent's basement,

On a 1, well you don't want a 1, that's when it becomes my turn, and sure I'd participate on a 4+, but If it's a 1.... well, just you wait and see.

Posts deleted and thread locked thanks to numerous complaints and breaking of Dakka Rule Number 1.

Waaagh_Gonads