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Hi Dakka,
I just got the Blood Angels codex (mainly for the fluff and to read it), and something struck me: there isn't any "paint-made" crap in it, but good quality illustrations to show the chapter and his successors !!!
Immediately, it appealed to me, and I began to read it.
So, at the beggining, I was just interested by the fluff and the fact I have the Terminators from Space Hulk.
But,I have always been interested by them, their classic/Roman look, etc...
As some of you know, I'm doing an armored guard right now, so it is an absolut no, I won't began a new SM army. I must resist temptation !

However, reading the list, wargear etc...
They don't seem SO bad. I mean, maybe for big tournaments etc they can't stand but, they seems solid for casual gamers (disclaimer: I didn't played them, so I may miss something).
They miss thunderfire and centurions, but the demie company/ gladius don't allow it anyway in the SM codex, for example.

I see some clear drawbacks (command squad with stock champion and stock Sanguinary Novitiate instead of veterans, bad scouts, few formations...).

Is there any Space Marine AND Blood Angel player here, who can talk about them ?
Maybe they are better if you take them just as allies for theirs benefits, without theirs bad things (just 500pts of DC, SG, priests etc) ?

So basically ignoring math and what other codices have is what you do.

Blood Angels are JUNK outside a few specific units.
1. Death Company
2. Dante
3. Priests (and to be honest that's from putting the FNP in anything outside the codex)
4. Melta on Assault Squads
5. The formation that gives free stuff to Vanguard and Sternguard

That's really it. Sanguine Guard are entirely too expensive and need a babysitter character, you can get better Bikers from other codices, their Captains are entirely outdone by equivalents from the other Loyalist Scum codices, Fast Rhinos is nice until you learn a small squad of Scatterbikes or Destroyers can Glance it in one go, and their Scouts didn't receive the most welcome BS4/WS4 buff that once again makes Tacticals even more outclassed than they already were.

It's a bottom-quarter book on the competitive scale. That doesn't mean it can't still win a game here and there, even against top tier stuff. (Against say, competitive eldar, this generally involves heavy reserves, jumping out to objectives, then losing most of your army while you pray for a turn 5 end.)

As far as funsies games go, my only gripe is not being able to take all jumpers anymore. (Well you can, but it requires a specific detachment from a supplement and using the extremely high cost raphen's death company.)

So if you just want to hang and toss some dice, or like having a tough challenge, have at it. If you want to be on an even footing with other competitive lists, look elsewhere.

People like to whine because it's not the same or better than Codex: Space Marines. BA are perfectly fine, especially if you're not into a tournament scene. Regardless, I still think they're fun and in the games I've played (against SM, CSM, and Tau primarily) they've done fine typically.

Cue Martel

It's fine for 2014 Codexes.

The problem lies within 2015 Codexes being on a different power level to them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically ignoring math and what other codices have is what you do.

Blood Angels are JUNK outside a few specific units.
1. Death Company
2. Dante
3. Priests (and to be honest that's from putting the FNP in anything outside the codex)
4. Melta on Assault Squads
5. The formation that gives free stuff to Vanguard and Sternguard

That's really it. Sanguine Guard are entirely too expensive and need a babysitter character, you can get better Bikers from other codices, their Captains are entirely outdone by equivalents from the other Loyalist Scum codices, Fast Rhinos is nice until you learn a small squad of Scatterbikes or Destroyers can Glance it in one go, and their Scouts didn't receive the most welcome BS4/WS4 buff that once again makes Tacticals even more outclassed than they already were.

This except Dante and melta assault squads are bad too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 troa wrote:
People like to whine because it's not the same or better than Codex: Space Marines. BA are perfectly fine, especially if you're not into a tournament scene. Regardless, I still think they're fun and in the games I've played (against SM, CSM, and Tau primarily) they've done fine typically.

Actually, I'd be happy with as good as chaos marines at this point. Get it right.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
Hi Dakka,
I just got the Blood Angels codex (mainly for the fluff and to read it), and something struck me: there isn't any "paint-made" crap in it, but good quality illustrations to show the chapter and his successors !!!
Immediately, it appealed to me, and I began to read it.
So, at the beggining, I was just interested by the fluff and the fact I have the Terminators from Space Hulk.
But,I have always been interested by them, their classic/Roman look, etc...
As some of you know, I'm doing an armored guard right now, so it is an absolut no, I won't began a new SM army. I must resist temptation !

However, reading the list, wargear etc...
They don't seem SO bad. I mean, maybe for big tournaments etc they can't stand but, they seems solid for casual gamers (disclaimer: I didn't played them, so I may miss something).
They miss thunderfire and centurions, but the demie company/ gladius don't allow it anyway in the SM codex, for example.

I see some clear drawbacks (command squad with stock champion and stock Sanguinary Novitiate instead of veterans, bad scouts, few formations...).

Is there any Space Marine AND Blood Angel player here, who can talk about them ?
Maybe they are better if you take them just as allies for theirs benefits, without theirs bad things (just 500pts of DC, SG, priests etc) ?

I wouldn't sink a dime into a single BA model. No help is coming for years, and everything they can field is done better somewhere else. It's the only truly useless codex in the game, as codex:space marines can do everything BA does better.

I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Melta squads and Dante. The Melta allows engagement of targets they cannot ordinarily hurt, and if Raven Guard had access to them it would be bonkers. Dante has EW and 4 wounds and hits stuff fairly well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Melta squads and Dante. The Melta allows engagement of targets they cannot ordinarily hurt, and if Raven Guard had access to them it would be bonkers. Dante has EW and 4 wounds and hits stuff fairly well.

Unfortunately, to Martel732, all units must be compared in effectiveness vs. cost against the Windrider Jetbike with Scatter Laser and the humble Wraithknight. However, as both of those examples are severely undercosted, the analysis is bound to be favored against the comparison unit.

Also, for the record, Blood Angels have a much better codex than Chaos Marines. Saying they don't is objectively inaccurate, as the Blood Angels codex was not designed for 5th edition and does not include Mutilators or Warp Talons.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's fine for 2014 Codexes.

The problem lies within 2015 Codexes being on a different power level to them.

Exactly this. They perform admirably against stuff like Orks, Dark Eldar, Guard, and Grey Knights (Space Wolves are a unique exception in that they are still pretty good against the 2015 codexes). It is when you look at stuff like Eldar, Necrons, Tau, and SM/DA(Especially the other JP heavy army, Raven Guard), they are left in the dust.

If the basic updates to vanilla filtered into the BA codex, I would be happier to run them in basic games. Four Attack Dreads, Tank Squadrons, Scouts with proper stats, Terminator price, Formations that actually did something. Can you imagine a Demi-Company with Objective Secured AND the +1 Ini charge bonus. That would be so fun.

Competitively, or even on a low week and I want to win at a game so I can get a bit of a pick-me-up, Blood Angels are the last army in my list of armies I play. They are a blast to play when we are talking about fun and friendly games. They take a lot of work and usually win or lose depending on the movement phase.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I'd be happy with as good as chaos marines at this point. Get it right.

You really want your codex to be worse? At least you have Grav and IoM shenanigans.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I'd be happy with as good as chaos marines at this point. Get it right.

You really want your codex to be worse? At least you have Grav and IoM shenanigans.

I only have BA, so no IoM stuff. I have grav guns, but not cannons. Grav guns are proving to be rather underwhelming compared to the cannons. CSM has better FW support, so that's why I give them the nod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Melta squads and Dante. The Melta allows engagement of targets they cannot ordinarily hurt, and if Raven Guard had access to them it would be bonkers. Dante has EW and 4 wounds and hits stuff fairly well.

Melta is so unreliable now. Dante is super overcosted for his in-game benefits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Melta squads and Dante. The Melta allows engagement of targets they cannot ordinarily hurt, and if Raven Guard had access to them it would be bonkers. Dante has EW and 4 wounds and hits stuff fairly well.

Unfortunately, to Martel732, all units must be compared in effectiveness vs. cost against the Windrider Jetbike with Scatter Laser and the humble Wraithknight. However, as both of those examples are severely undercosted, the analysis is bound to be favored against the comparison unit.

Also, for the record, Blood Angels have a much better codex than Chaos Marines. Saying they don't is objectively inaccurate, as the Blood Angels codex was not designed for 5th edition and does not include Mutilators or Warp Talons.

You can compare BA units to the things that make space marines or Space Wolves win and they're crap there, too.

If by better Forge World support you mean more unique Super Heavies then I agree with you.

The rest, however are just IoM units in spikes. Indeed, almost all the good ones ARE IoM units in spikes, and BA get them too (without Allies). The other other chaos stuff are a separate faction (Renegade Guard), so can be discounted since you're discounting IoM shenanigans.

And at least you have Grav-something. Sure, they aren't Cannons but it's something, not none at all like with Chaos.

BA are not the worst. They're better overall than CSM and at least on par if not better than Orks.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
If the basic updates to vanilla filtered into the BA codex, I would be happier to run them in basic games. Four Attack Dreads, Tank Squadrons, Scouts with proper stats, Terminator price, Formations that actually did something. Can you imagine a Demi-Company with Objective Secured AND the +1 Ini charge bonus. That would be so fun.

Competitively, or even on a low week and I want to win at a game so I can get a bit of a pick-me-up, Blood Angels are the last army in my list of armies I play. They are a blast to play when we are talking about fun and friendly games. They take a lot of work and usually win or lose depending on the movement phase.

I don't know why you guys are so hung up on a lot of this stuff?

"Oh, dread don't have 4 attacks base!" - Doesn't matter, nobody takes them anyway because they're AV12 and die to scatbikes
"I don't have Tank Squadrons!" - Doesn't matter, squadrons are crap because they transfer excess wounds and make you stuff easier to destroy
"I don't have scouts with WS/BS4!" - Doesn't matter for you since you can't have storms anyway, unless you're running sniper scouts, then yes, you can righly feel gipped.
"My terminators are too expensive!" - No gak, all terminators are too expensive, even in the marine dex. Even if you got the same discout vanilla termies got, they'd still be gak in the BA dex because ones with lightning claws only have a 5++ and ones with a stormshield aren't any cheaper and don't get +1 I because hammers.
"But what if my gladius had +1 I!" - Wouldn't matter, they're still marines and as such, the instant they're out of their transport, they're dead

All the things you whinge about (not that they're not entirely valid gripes mind you, they are) wouldn't make BA any more competative than they already are. When was the last time you saw dreads, termies or a squad of tanks in a competative marine list? Never? Hmmm...

You should be asking for your unique stuff to be better, not asking for the same useless junk that has no effect on vanilla marines competativness, since the only thing keeping them in the game is free pods or 20 point razorbacks, librarius conclave and grav cents. Without those, marines fall way back down the line into obscurity behind Codex:Thundercav.

Right, which is why I said about three times 'basic games' 'friendly games' and so on and so forth. Blood Angels are not going to be competitive until Assault Phase gets an update. Vanilla will always do better because of how damaging the shooting phase will be.

Tanks in Squadrons with Fast is a valid strategy. It would make Armor into a major BA playstyle. There's no doubt how damaging that could be.

Codex: Blood Angles? Are you sure you didn't mean Codex: Taxi Service? That's all I see anyone play blood angels for is that detachment with 1HQ, 1Troop, 1Fast minimum and 5 fast optional and they take as many non-dedicated drop pods for units that cannot get them as possible.

Well, I actually like the codex. It's not over the top but playable.
Take a few full Tacticals with heavy flamer, flamer and combi weapon in Rhinos or Pods backed up by the Death Company. This should give you a solid core. Expand from there.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Right, which is why I said about three times 'basic games' 'friendly games' and so on and so forth. Blood Angels are not going to be competitive until Assault Phase gets an update. Vanilla will always do better because of how damaging the shooting phase will be.

Tanks in Squadrons with Fast is a valid strategy. It would make Armor into a major BA playstyle. There's no doubt how damaging that could be.

No matter what happens to the Assault Phase, the interval between C:SM and BA would likely remain the same. BA needs an overhaul from the ground up to be viable. As of right now, I am considering just running mine as Raven Guard with the Kauyon formations. If there was a Death Company formation that didn't suck, I would just change Sanguinary Guard to Vanguard Veterans and call Dante "Shrike". But counts as isn't nearly as fun as having a Codex that is actually good.

I would love to see what a squadron of Baal Predators could do. At least then they wouldn't eat up as many slots in Heavy Support if you wanted to run more than one.

At this rate, I kinda just wish they would fold Blood Angels into the Codex: Space Marines. Just make Death Company an analog to the Crusader Squad by making them Blood Angels only, and have their Chapter Tactics make all Rhino-pattern Vehicles Fast.

The fact they are supposed to be a "Codex-Compliant" Chapter, but get nothing in return besides the, admittedly, pretty cool Death Company, is just irritating. They need to stop pretending BA are "Codex-Compliant". Let them deploy with Assault Marines as Troops. The reason they removed this is because of the new Blood Angels Tactical Marine kit. They wanted to maximize sales. Now we have a new Assault Marine kit (that Blood Angels can't even use all the options from, because F-U BA) and a Blood Angels upgrade kit. The BA Tactical kit is $43. The upgrade kit is $13.50 and the Assault Marines are $41 for a total of $54.50, the smart money would be lead people to buy the Assault Marines. Heck, you could pack them together for $50 and people would still buy them. We have an exclusive Terminator kit, but our Terminators are worse than any other Terminators in the game (save MAYBE Chaos Space Marines, but I am not familiar with their rules).

Honestly, this is just making me want to go back and do some work on my BA Errata thread in Proposed Rules.

EDIT: wuestenfux brings up the only saving grace of our Tacticals. We can bring Heavy Flamers, which are pretty awesome. Paired with a Flamer and either a Combi-Flamer or a pair of Hand Flamers, you are the bane of anything that wants to charge you. Too bad everything just shoots you to death from outside template range.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

At this rate, I kinda just wish they would fold Blood Angels into the Codex: Space Marines. Just make Death Company an analog to the Crusader Squad by making them Blood Angels only, and have their Chapter Tactics make all Rhino-pattern Vehicles Fast.

You'd just end up with people telling you that your rules are fine because Codex: Space Marine is really powerful... when run as another Chapter than the one you're playing.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The fact they are supposed to be a "Codex-Compliant" Chapter, but get nothing in return besides the, admittedly, pretty cool Death Company, is just irritating. They need to stop pretending BA are "Codex-Compliant". Let them deploy with Assault Marines as Troops. The reason they removed this is because of the new Blood Angels Tactical Marine kit.

Or--and bear with me here, because this is gonna blow your freaking mind--they were never really intended to have Assault Marines as Troops.
I mean hell, Raven Guard were supposed to be masters of stealth and ambush, and it wasn't until Kauyon that they got anything at all for the latter.

Additionally, I find it reaaaaaaally hard to be sympathetic to Blood Angels players considering the kinds of comments that many Blood Angels players often made regarding Dark Angels when they were in this same situation.

I really would like the codex to be updated to include the basic balancing done in the DA and SM codex.

It was bad enough that the Storm Raven got stolen, but even now a space marine dreadnaught can wipe the floor in CC with a Furioso.

What they did to the Blood Talons was awful. Who cares about shred when you are already S10? I had a blast charging in at S7 with a boatload of growing attacks. And if you needed that S10, you could simply use the fists option.

Also, Mephiston is now a chump, and the Wings of Sanguinius psychic power is useless.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The fact they are supposed to be a "Codex-Compliant" Chapter, but get nothing in return besides the, admittedly, pretty cool Death Company, is just irritating. They need to stop pretending BA are "Codex-Compliant". Let them deploy with Assault Marines as Troops. The reason they removed this is because of the new Blood Angels Tactical Marine kit.

Or--and bear with me here, because this is gonna blow your freaking mind--they were never really intended to have Assault Marines as Troops.
I mean hell, Raven Guard were supposed to be masters of stealth and ambush, and it wasn't until Kauyon that they got anything at all for the latter.

Additionally, I find it reaaaaaaally hard to be sympathetic to Blood Angels players considering the kinds of comments that many Blood Angels players often made regarding Dark Angels when they were in this same situation.

Cut it however you want, Blood Angels are supposed to be the masters of Jump Pack combat. It has always been their thing. The issue was that people were taking their Assault Marines, running them in free Razorbacks, and not doing what BA are supposed to do. I would be perfectly okay with giving BA the ability to purchase a second CCW the way Space Wolves can. I would totally pay the 2 pts per model to get a full squad running around with more attacks.

As for Dark Angels players, I was a big proponent of giving them a buff. Hell, I was in favor of giving them an even bigger buff than they already received. I am talking stuff like rerolling Gets Hot (they are the undisputed masters of Plasma weaponry among the Space Marines), giving the Nephilim the REAL Avenger Mega Bolter from the Fire Raptor, giving their Terminators 2 Heavy Weapons per 5, etc. And here's the kicker, my most common opponent plays Dark Angels.

EDIT: I really do wish we had a second flyer. Besides Grey Knights, every other Loyalist Codex has two flyers. Space Wolves get two transports (one leaning more heavily as a heavy fighter), Space Marines get OUR Stormraven and the Stormtalon (which I run two of in my Crimson Fists because they are so much fun), and Dark Angels get the Dark Talon and Nephilim Jetfighter (the Dark Talon is AWESOME, and the Nephilim is at least not terrible). Can we either get the Stormtalon or some variation of it? If you look at all of the GW SM flyers besides the Stormraven, they all share similar characteristics with the Stormtalon. Can we get one of our own? Heck, take the Dark Talon/Nephilim kit and make it Blood Angels-y.

Just wait another year, bet a new BA book will be out before next Christmas at the rate GW's going. Might even see 8th edition before then, then BA can have the honor of being the first ones updated for a new edition. lol

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just wait another year, bet a new BA book will be out before next Christmas at the rate GW's going. Might even see 8th edition before then, then BA can have the honor of being the first ones updated for a new edition. lol

Touché

I might even be done with my Blood Angels by then, lol.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just wait another year, bet a new BA book will be out before next Christmas at the rate GW's going. Might even see 8th edition before then, then BA can have the honor of being the first ones updated for a new edition. lol

Right, because that worked out SO well for Orks . I was REALLY hoping the new BA kits this winter were the sign of something coming, but alas, they were just disconnected releases for no reason.

Oh please... We know that SW's are getting a new book in Feb. The only Xenos book that has a hope in hell of getting a redo this coming year are Orks, and that leaves only Marine varients left to update afterwards.
Odds are that Blood Angels will get their update before the summer's even out.

You know what being truly dumped on by GW is? Try being a Chaos Marine player!

We haven't had a decent book in nearly a freaking decade now. Everything that was unique about us was either stripped away, or else you Loyalist scum have stolen it and one-up'ed it by x10.
Our model line is the gakkiest Marine line in the entire game! Half of it is still Finecrap, half our basic upgrades are entirely missing, we have all of 2 actual plastic kits that are viable...

And guess what we're getting next year? That's right, nothing.



BA's in recent years have had terrible rules for one whole year.
Yet the vocal ones here are acting as if BA's have been the most routinely neglected army in GW history, conveniently forgetting how DA's had been awful for 4 strait editions, while Chaos Marines had their entire identity & character stripped from them for 3 entire editions now.

Everyone at some point gets a turn being the bottom feeder. BA's had the craptastic WD 'dex for just over a year, and now were unlucky enough to be the final book of 2014 prior to GW turning everything up to x10.
DA's & Chaos Marines however are what a truly neglected army look like. 1 shinning moment of glory between a decade or more of polished poo and being everyone's punching bag.

At least BA's now sport what is easily the best looking model line of all the various Marine armies! The rules will come. (and a lot sooner than us poor Chaos players will be waiting...)

Are SW really going to have a new book yet ?
The latest book was from 2014 or 2013 IIRC, how is that even possible ? I thought the 2 years lifetime of the V6 was just an exception...

Friend of mine runs triple Dread with Frag Cannons and Mag Grappels in DP's. They're a pretty effective turn 1 punch in the face. I think a lot of BA players overlook that capability.

 godardc wrote:
Are SW really going to have a new book yet ?
The latest book was from 2014 or 2013 IIRC, how is that even possible ? I thought the 2 years lifetime of the V6 was just an exception...

Yep, apparently so.

The rumors come from two of the most currently reliable sources, with one of them hinting at a multi-week release with new model kits coming as well.

 djones520 wrote:
Friend of mine runs triple Dread with Frag Cannons and Mag Grappels in DP's. They're a pretty effective turn 1 punch in the face. I think a lot of BA players overlook that capability.

The one local BA player I know who's left uses a pair of Fragioso Dreads + a regular Death Co. version. It's downright mean, especially when followed up with a pair of MSU melta Assault squads, and his MSU Tacs w/Heavy flamer + paired Hand flamers.
If you're not running a mechanised army, you tend to remove handfuls of models when that stuff shows up.

Sure it's not GT capable, but then, I daresay that the vast majority of players don't give a rat's fart about the self-styled 40k "pro" circuit, and instead just play to have some fun & socialise in a non-donkeycave fashion.