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Made in gb
Guardsman with Flashlight



Winchester University

Is this allowed? in the RaW it doesnt say that it cant be done.

Any thoughts?
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Answer:
Technically yes, but if you try to actually do this you deserve whatever unseemly things your opponent does to you.
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





You like Pie, not cheese. Cmon man. Hmm, though cheesecake is a thing.

I have much to ponder.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






RAI, the captain is suppose to be in Terminator armor that precludes him from taking jump packs of any kind if I remember.

However I also remember that RAW dropped the ball hard and Cataphractii armor isn't technically Terminator armor, which means the exceptions that usually restricts items from being taken with Terminator armor doesn't actually apply to him.

Most people have a gentleman's agreement to adhere to the spirit of the word, even if the actual word is poorly written, so don't try forcing this on people if they don't wish to play against it. However if you are up front with your opponent, you can sometimes be surprised at the response.

I would not recommend trying this at a tournament though. Tournament opinions can vary wildly and generally their rule is the last word on things. Trying to rule-lawyer with them never ends well. If possible, check beforehand and be polite if they turn you down.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Seems pretty straightforward in the rules.

Spoiler:
A model wearing Cataphractii Terminator armour counts as wearing Terminator Armour for the purposes of embarking within Transport vehicles, the use of teleport homers, and for the purposes of Formation Restrictions.


Looks like it's pretty clear that they did not intend for the Cataphractii Terminator armour to count as Terminator Armour for the purpose of Special Issue Wargear restrictions.

The Angel of Death supplement has been out for a while so it's been deemed acceptable as-is by the GW FAQ team since no FAQ has been written for it.

Giving the Cataphractii Captain a jump pack or a bike is perfectly legal according to the rules and intended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/07 06:37:55


 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




col_impact wrote:
Seems pretty straightforward in the rules.

Spoiler:
A model wearing Cataphractii Terminator armour counts as wearing Terminator Armour for the purposes of embarking within Transport vehicles, the use of teleport homers, and for the purposes of Formation Restrictions.


Looks like it's pretty clear that they did not intend for the Cataphractii Terminator armour to count as Terminator Armour for the purpose of Special Issue Wargear restrictions.

The Angel of Death supplement has been out for a while so it's been deemed acceptable as-is by the GW FAQ team since no FAQ has been written for it.

Giving the Cataphractii Captain a jump pack or a bike is perfectly legal according to the rules and intended.

No, it is not. You cannot buy Cataphractii Captains a bike or a jump pack. Not because of any restriction, mind, but simply because the option is not available for them - Cataphractii Captains are a seperate, unique unit from regular Captains, that do not get access to most gear options that regular Captains do. They can't even be Chapter Masters! All they can really do is buy different weapons and relics.

The Raven's Fury creates the conflict since, while regular Termie armor cannot buy Jump Packs and thus cannot buy the Raven's Fury (which counts as a Jump Pack,) Cataphractii armor has no such restriction - They didn't bother adding one, because they never made normal Jump Pack access possible.


It is very clearly a rules oversight.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Waaaghpower wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Seems pretty straightforward in the rules.

Spoiler:
A model wearing Cataphractii Terminator armour counts as wearing Terminator Armour for the purposes of embarking within Transport vehicles, the use of teleport homers, and for the purposes of Formation Restrictions.


Looks like it's pretty clear that they did not intend for the Cataphractii Terminator armour to count as Terminator Armour for the purpose of Special Issue Wargear restrictions.

The Angel of Death supplement has been out for a while so it's been deemed acceptable as-is by the GW FAQ team since no FAQ has been written for it.

Giving the Cataphractii Captain a jump pack or a bike is perfectly legal according to the rules and intended.

No, it is not. You cannot buy Cataphractii Captains a bike or a jump pack. Not because of any restriction, mind, but simply because the option is not available for them - Cataphractii Captains are a seperate, unique unit from regular Captains, that do not get access to most gear options that regular Captains do. They can't even be Chapter Masters! All they can really do is buy different weapons and relics.


Did you actually read the Army List Entry for the Terminator Captain in the Angels of Death supplement?

Spoiler:
A Terminator Captain can be included in any Space Marines Detachment or Formation that lists 'Captain' as part of its composition, subject to the Formation Restrictions.


Spoiler:
OPTIONS:
May replace Terminator armour with Cataphractii Terminator armour (pg 57) ..............free
May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists (see Codex: Space Marines.


The Terminator Captain who replaces his Terminator armour for Cataphractii Terminator armour can clearly access Special Issue Warger without the Terminator armour restriction.

So according to the rules you can give a Cataphractii Captain a bike or jump pack.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/07 07:40:19


 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Terminator armour is terminator armour no matter which version it is. If there is a restriction on terminator armour then it also applies to cataphracti "terminator armour"
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




col_impact wrote:

Did you actually read the Army List Entry for the Terminator Captain in the Angels of Death supplement?

Yes, I did!
But I forgot to go back and check under the main codex, I spaced out and thought that bikes and Jump Packs were listed individually, I forgot they were under the 'Special Issue Wargear' umbrella.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Fareham

As it's written, it's actually allowed.
Nothing in the wording prevents this.


Which really is an oversight on GWs part.
Cataphractii is a heavier pattern of terminator armour.
So if a bike or pack can't take the weight of a regular one, it really won't hold a cataphractii.

Nearly every tournament I've seen though has corrected this and prevented them from using bikes/packs.



Also, because a book has been out for a while does not mean they don't think it needs a FAQ.
It just means they haven't done one yet.
There are quite a few issues raised with the book people are waiting on answers for.

   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

Yeah, I'd avoid running it because it's obviously an error and you probably don't want to irritate your opponents.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 rawne2510 wrote:
Terminator armour is terminator armour no matter which version it is. If there is a restriction on terminator armour then it also applies to cataphracti "terminator armour"


Unfortunately in this case, RAW does say it is possible because Cataphractii Armor is never refered to in the rules as being equivalent to Terminator Armor for the purposes of item selection. However, given that even Cataphractii armor is refered to as "Cataphractii Terminator Armor", the two units associated with it are named "Terminator Captain" and "Terminator Squads", the captain himself is restricted to picking weapons from the "Terminator Weapons list" rather than the normal list, and that everything else outside the rules references it as a type of Terminator Armor, it stands to reason that the writers intended for it to be synonymous with Terminator Armor in every form.

Again, this is why it's a gentleman's agreement. There is absolutely nothing in the rules stopping you from doing so, but the general consensus is that it's inappropriate. If you played 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy, this is very much like the Ogre Ironfist on a Slaughtermaster letting him take magic armor (at least until we get a FAQ about it).


Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Also they gathered the questions for the faq a month before AOD came out. Don't let this last round fool you, it tolk ten years for the last FAQs to come out. At this point they'll most likely make 8th instead of fixing it.

Like Minis and sculpts? Check out our Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/themakerscult 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Cataphracti Terminator armor.

Is a type of terminators armor.

You are saying a heavy bolt gun is not a bolt type gun because it has an additional word.

Further claiming that a model has general access to special issue wargear gives them specific access to every special issue wargear on the list is really...Not logical in any regard.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






The problem was that Cataphractii armor specifically refers to itself as being treated as Terminator armor for the purposes of counting for transports, which means that the rules themselves recognize that "Cataphractii Terminator Armor" is technically a different term from "Terminator Armor".

It's that one line that kills it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the camp that says that it is Terminator armor and should be subjected to the same restrictions thereof, but this time RAW dropped the ball.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Terminator captain datasheet does not list melee or ranged weapon options, it lists Terminator weapons as options.

If he's not in Terminator armor, how is it using Terminator weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/07 19:09:15


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Fareham

What terminator weapon options are they specifically?
Because most options aren't terminator only weapons.

   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






He means the "Terminator Weapons" list in the Space Marine Armory.

The weapons themselves aren't terminator-exclusive, but only characters in terminator armor have the option to select from the list (this is because the cost for those weapons are adjusted to account for the storm bolter and power weapon terminator armor usually comes with).

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Jackal wrote:
What terminator weapon options are they specifically?
Because most options aren't terminator only weapons.

I would presume its the fact that he can select from the Terminator Weapons list in Codex Space Marines.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Fareham

Ah right.
So because it's listed as terminator weapons it makes him a terminator?

Heavy flamers are listed and named as heavy weapons, yet are assault type.

The name alone isn't enough.





While I whole heartedly agree it's a dick move to try putting a pack or bike on him, nothing currently stops it sadly.

Scary thing is, you could throw smashfether on a bike in cataphractii and nothing currently stops it.




Edit:

He's also allowed to take special wargear aswell.
Without the list stating any restrictions, people will argue this one until blue in the face.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/07 19:20:12


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He means the "Terminator Weapons" list in the Space Marine Armory.

The weapons themselves aren't terminator-exclusive, but only characters in terminator armor have the option to select from the list (this is because the cost for those weapons are adjusted to account for the storm bolter and power weapon terminator armor usually comes with).


Actually they are Terminator excuse from that list, as the list specifies models in Terminator armor may replace x item for y item at z cost.

If Cataphracti Terminator armor is not Terminator armor they can't upgrade any of their items from that list per the RAW people are stating allows them to use the Ravens fury jump pack.

I.e. a model in Cataphracti Terminator armor has no option to take items from that list by the logic that they can take Ravens fury, so storm bolter and power sword as weapons for cataphracti captains, outside of relics.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/07 19:24:25


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Fareham

I completely skimmed over that and I'll hold my hands up there.


I see the point completely.
The wargear states a model in terminator armour can select the weapons etc, thus giving the wording it is terminator armour.

   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






It's a vicious back and forth because there exists evidence for both arguments since technically it means by RAW he can't swap out his weapons (he doesn't have to select anything from the list, just has permission) but isn't counted as having terminator armor (the cataphractii armor's own rules has to say it counts as terminator armor for various purposes, and specifically did not include item selection restrictions). Note that the Captain starts with normal Terminator Armor, so by a strict reading of RAW he is either choosing Cataphractii armor OR the ability to swap his weapons (he gets the option regardless of which armor he's wearing).

Again, that's just what RAW states, and we all know RAW can be obtuse at times. I full heartly agree that it SHOULD be that Cataphractii Armor = Terminator Armor in terms of wargear selection, but RAW is decidely non-cooperative in this respect.

Which, again, is why I say it's a Gentleman's Agreement to treat it as Terminator Armor. And we should probably just leave it here before we say some unkind words and the mods have to be involved.

EDIT: When I said "not terminator exclusive" I meant that having terminator armor isn't a requirement for using those weapons, as they can appear on other lists and options (this is because in older editions, there were some weapons that were terminator exclusive, like the thunder hammers). You still need terminator armor to even get access, let alone select anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/07 19:38:31


Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





FWIW I didn't think there was any hostility in the thread

I'm just of the opinion that Cataphracti Terminator armor is Terminator armor, of course the RAW could be that it's not, I understand that for example a power weapon can be on both lists, just that the Terminator weapons list has the stated requirement of having Terminator armor makes the idea that Cataphracti Terminator armor is not Terminator armor very restrictive in options.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






There wasn't any hostility, but it was starting to retread on something that already generated something like 10 pages of discussion (which did devolve into namecalling if I remember, and didn't get anywhere), which is not something the mods look kindly upon. Not to mention most people are already in agreement that it's a poorly written example of RAW so there's not much to be had other than repeat what has already been said.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
When I said "not terminator exclusive" I meant that having terminator armor isn't a requirement for using those weapons, as they can appear on other lists and options (this is because in older editions, there were some weapons that were terminator exclusive, like the thunder hammers). You still need terminator armor to even get access, let alone select anything.
That's a good point. One could argue that he doesn't get weapon options from the terminator list.

...except the stock model has a terminator armor-only weapon. That's a pretty clear sign that he's wearing terminator armor. If you want to get really fiddly with the rules, the unit entry gives him access to terminator weapons, but the weapons list specifies that (once you have access to the list) you can only swap gear if in terminator armor.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






The thing with the stock model is that it technically was not made for 40k. It's made for 30k (and technically for Betray at Calth), which I assume that it has no such conflicts in those books. It is simply repurposed for 40k use. This wouldn't be the first time that a model had equipment it wasn't suppose to (although I forget who the last example was).

However in all cases where a model has a piece of wargear it's not suppose to, it's treated as if that wargear doesn't exist. In essence, the rules restrict what the model has, but the model never restricts what the rules can do.

Once again, we all know it's suppose to be Terminator Armor and there are numerous references to this (the most obvious one is the name is Cataphractii TERMINATOR Armor, not "Cataphractii Armor"). But the rules were poorly written so going *strictly by the word of the rules*, if he has Cataphractii Terminator Armor, he has permission to the list of Terminator Weapons, but cannot actually select anything. He can then select any Relic or Special Issue Wargear he wants, unless a piece of wargear requires Terminator Armor. This is all because the Cataphractii Terminator Armor's own rules says that it's treated like Terminator Armor for the purposes of boarding transports and Relic Terminator Armors all having the line "this is a suit of Terminator Armor" rather than trying to reproduce the wording of Terminator Armor. Since Cataphractii Terminator Armor doesn't have a blanket statement like Relic Armors, but still makes a distinction for a very specific situation, it means that it is indeed treated as a completely different entity. Or at least this is the case until a FAQ can come.

Again, we all know what it's meant to be, which is why I keep referencing the "gentleman's agreement". But if someone really wants to, you can be shouting at him with all the evidence to the contrary till your blue in the face, but nothing written in the rules forbid it.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 spiralingcadaver wrote:
If you want to get really fiddly with the rules, the unit entry gives him access to terminator weapons, but the weapons list specifies that (once you have access to the list) you can only swap gear if in terminator armor.


Incorrect. The general permission allows him to swap a Melee Weapon for one of the weapons on the list Ranged Weapons or a Melee Weapon for one of the weapons on the list of Melee Weapons.

Spoiler:
A model may replace his boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the following:


He is stuck with the stormbolter however. Although that can be swapped for a Chapter Relic.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/07 20:51:10


 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

How do you get access to a chainfist without terminator armor?


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






If you really want to split hairs like that, nothing in the rules says that thing is a chain fist (in fact in most descriptions of Chainfists, they're suppose to be a chainsword attached to a Power Fist, and that ain't no power fist on his hand). It could be a really weird looking relic blade and he's holding the Betrayer's Bane Relic.

Again, we all know the intent, but the rule written in the rulebook does not agree.

@ col_impact: The Terminator Captain entry doesn't give him access to the standard Melee Weapons or Ranged Weapons list in the armory. The only ones he gets access to is Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and Chapter Relics. He does, however, have an option in his entry to take a Relic Blade instead of a Power Sword.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/07 21:06:11


Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
 
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