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2017/04/12 06:48:56
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Give it up Col, you are admitted that your method is RAI in your own words. Maybe find or start another thread with another one of your RAI stances veiled with RAW labels that will garner another 20 pages of your trolling.
2017/04/12 06:49:40
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 06:49:57
12,000
2017/04/12 06:52:15
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Give it up Col, you are admitted that your method is RAI in your own words. Maybe find or start another thread with another one of your RAI stances veiled with RAW labels that will garner another 20 pages of your trolling.
Where did I admit that?
I pointed out that you were confusing a lack of rules in a given area with RAI.
For my argument, I am strictly adhering to the Rules As Written.
Feel free to point out anything that is illegal according to the rules . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
2017/04/12 06:53:00
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Klowny wrote: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
You should probably read the Rules As Written and not take anything that Col says as RAW. He tends to flavor his discussion with bias towards a RAI stance on the rules. If you don't have the rules, it is then probably best that you not contribute at all and instead just enjoy the show.
2017/04/12 06:53:39
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You are not taking your options top to bottom.
The codex is written in english.
We read english from top to bottom.
We have been reading english in the rules and codex's for 7 editions, this is precedence.
Are you proposing an alternative way to read the rules?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 06:55:03
2017/04/12 06:55:58
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Klowny wrote: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
The rules are in an awkward state.
Per RAW Cataphractii terminator armour is not Terminator armour.
However, for the purchase of Terminator Weapons it seems to count as Terminator armour.
This leads to being able to buy a bike with Cataphractii armour and to have a chainfist (provided you can swap the power sword for the chainfist on the model)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Yes I will point out something illegal.
You are not taking your options top to bottom.
The codex is written in english.
We read english from top to bottom.
We have been reading english in the rules and codex's for 7 editions, this is precedence.
Are you proposing an alternative way to read the rules?
You need to point to a rule that states we must purchase options top to bottom.
If you cannot you have nothing more than a house rule.
I don't play by that house rule. I can purchase options in any order I choose since the rules don't dicate an order.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 06:59:18
2017/04/12 06:58:11
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Klowny wrote: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
You should probably read the Rules As Written and not take anything that Col says as RAW. He tends to flavor his discussion with bias towards a RAI stance on the rules. If you don't have the rules, it is then probably best that you not contribute at all and instead just enjoy the show.
Oh I am
But your right, it seems this argument is an extremely pedantic rules interpretation, and I don't have the rules on me. I just felt that even something of this level of nitpicking should be easily explained to a layman. I've found people who know what they are talking about can explain things to dumbos like me, not just rehash the same point over and over again.
12,000
2017/04/12 07:00:51
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Give it up Col, you are admitted that your method is RAI in your own words. Maybe find or start another thread with another one of your RAI stances veiled with RAW labels that will garner another 20 pages of your trolling.
Where did I admit that?
I pointed out that you were confusing a lack of rules in a given area with RAI.
For my argument, I am strictly adhering to the Rules As Written.
Feel free to point out anything that is illegal according to the rules . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
I already went through this list of yours highlighting in red your use of RAI in making the decisions you make in this futile exercise. I will say this, I am not even arguing against you wanting to do this, only that you continue to claim it is RAW when it is almost entirely RAI. You can try and call your sequenced method of purchasing/choosing gear laissez-faire, but the very fact that you have zero permission to do so in such a manner and you yourself assume that it is the best method to get the results you desire, proves it is a RAI stance and thus invalidates any claim to RAW that you could have.
The only claim to RAW that I have never denied you is that Cataphracti armor on its own does not prohibit also buying a bike because of vague wording in the rule. Even that has been conditional since it has been GW's stance that armor that is described as terminator armor, has the same stats, has the same rules, etc, and etc, is effectively terminator armor when it comes to restrictions.
2017/04/12 07:01:29
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Klowny wrote: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
The rules are in an awkward state.
Per RAW Cataphractii terminator armour is not Terminator armour.
However, for the purchase of Terminator Weapons it seems to count as Terminator armour.
This leads to being able to buy a bike with Cataphractii armour and to have a chainfist (provided you can swap the power sword for the chainfist on the model)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Yes I will point out something illegal.
You are not taking your options top to bottom.
The codex is written in english.
We read english from top to bottom.
We have been reading english in the rules and codex's for 7 editions, this is precedence.
Are you proposing an alternative way to read the rules?
You need to point to a rule that states we must purchase options top to bottom.
If you cannot you have nothing more than a house rule.
I don't play by that house rule. I can purchase options in any order I choose since the rules don't dicate an order.
You need to point out a rule that states you may purchase options in any order.
If you cannot you have nothing more than a house rule.
My stance at least has precedence, no one has argued that we do not read rules from top to bottom. That is how English is read and how we have been reading codex's and rules since the game came out.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:03:19
2017/04/12 07:04:49
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: But you notice he has changed his argument since the beginning to account for his initial failure. It is now a sequencing argument to get around wearing Cataphracti armor, that isn't terminator armor, yet wielding terminator only weaponry.
col_impact has so far argued his case with:
1)ambulances
2)girlfriends pitbull (or some other dog breed, don't remember, don't care!)
3)"specific permission over general rule" which is not supported by anything
4)history
5)process, which is special case of history
All his arguments have been discredited, and often several times as he keeps on repeating his claims and disregarding other peoples opposing arguments, dodging questions and demanding other people produce rule quotes with page numbers while at the same time failing to produce rule quotes himself.
Looks like you are refusing to take up the challenge . ..
I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Feel free to point out something illegal. If you cannot then you must accept it as legal.
Ghorgul wrote: col_impact, you are the one dodging and ignoring other people.
The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataprachtii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
The Roster you provide is convoluted, let me tidy it up to follow the:
BRB, pg. 117, The Force Roster:
"Write down the details of the models that make up your army... This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game."
Terminator Captain
Cataprachtii Terminator Armour
Chainfist/Power Fist (you switched it 2nd time midway with no mention, but lets not worry about that!)
Bike
1) Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is legal choice
2) Bike is legal choice because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
3)Chainfist/power fist choice is Illegal. See the justification and rule entry below:
In Codex Space Marines, Space Marines Wargear List, Terminator Weapons
entry:
"A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Power fist X pts, -Chainfist X pts."
A model, as recorded in Force Roster I kindly provided for you, is not wearing a Terminator armour so therefore cannot replace his power weapon with Power fist or Chainfist. This is because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator armour by definition.
You failed to record your models Force Roster entry in clear manner and you failed to follow the rule set in Terminator Weapons [list] entry. Therefore you ended up with illegal choices for you models.
Ghorgul wrote: As all claims in support of Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour being able to choose options within Terminator Weapons list have been discredited and arguments against the claims stand unchallenged, even outright ignored, we can conclude that:
[list]Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour can have a bike or jump pack.
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour has access to Terminator Weapons, but cannot make any legal choices from the said list.
Quite dodging.
Point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Unless you can point out rules that I break, I am doing something perfectly legitimate and legal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.
Why? The process I outline is thoroughly legal and end results in a 100% legal combination.
Meanwhile, you mention FAQs but fail to deliver as far as posting them.
You have to show a rule being broken here.
Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Your argument has been discredited, by rule quotes in very clear manner. You are ignoring arguments and dodging. You are acting in very disruptive manner. You do not provide rule quotes in support of your claims, yet you demand others to provide rule quotes. When they are provided you ignore them completely and continue repeating your discredited claims.
Man you have gotten sidelined hard! Influx of new posters combined with the col_impact's purposefully convoluted way of presenting buying as a process/sequence where there is no need for that. See above quote, somewhere there is in spoilers the BRB quote for need to provide Force Roster. The Process/Sequence claim has been discredited. And he only brought up Process of buying after he was pressed on about the main issue, which explained in next paragraph.
col_impact's claim boils down to his own assumption that permission in the Army List Entry in Angels of Death Supplement giving Terminator Captain access to Terminator Weapons in Codex Space Marines overrides/allows him to ignore restrictions in Terminator Weapons. Which is incorrect and col_impact has failed to produce rule quote which would indicate permission in Angels of Death to override restrictions in Terminator Weapons [list] in Codex Space Marines. Instead he keeps on spamming the same sequence for buying and same line from Army List Entry for Terminator Captain saying "may take items from Terminator Weapons".
He is trolling, and has been trolling for many pages already after his increasingly imaginative arguments were discredited one at a time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:10:55
2017/04/12 07:06:47
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I already went through this list of yours highlighting in red your use of RAI in making the decisions you make in this futile exercise. I will say this, I am not even arguing against you wanting to do this, only that you continue to claim it is RAW when it is almost entirely RAI. You can try and call your sequenced method of purchasing/choosing gear laissez-faire, but the very fact that you have zero permission to do so in such a manner and you yourself assume that it is the best method to get the results you desire, proves it is a RAI stance and thus invalidates any claim to RAW that you could have.
It's not RAI though. There has to be actually rules in place for a person to take a Rules As Intended approach with them.
With regards to purchasing items, there are no definitive rules telling us how to go about that business.
The only thing that is required of players is that they produce legal combinations for their Army Lists.
So Rules As Written is literally "do what you want" there.
For work I have a rule that I need to show up at 9 AM.
The rules for work don't specify how I get to work. So I am free to get to work however I want.
Man you have gotten sidelined hard! Influx of new posters combined with the col_impact's purposefully convoluted way of presenting buying as a process/sequence where there is no need for that. See above quote, somewhere there is in spoilers the BRB quote for need to provide Force Roster. The Process/Sequence claim has been discredited.
I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This process produces a perfectly legal build which is all that is required for the Force Roster.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:13:56
2017/04/12 07:12:39
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: But you notice he has changed his argument since the beginning to account for his initial failure. It is now a sequencing argument to get around wearing Cataphracti armor, that isn't terminator armor, yet wielding terminator only weaponry.
col_impact has so far argued his case with:
1)ambulances
2)girlfriends pitbull (or some other dog breed, don't remember, don't care!)
3)"specific permission over general rule" which is not supported by anything
4)history
5)process, which is special case of history
All his arguments have been discredited, and often several times as he keeps on repeating his claims and disregarding other peoples opposing arguments, dodging questions and demanding other people produce rule quotes with page numbers while at the same time failing to produce rule quotes himself.
Looks like you are refusing to take up the challenge . ..
I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Feel free to point out something illegal. If you cannot then you must accept it as legal.
Ghorgul wrote: col_impact, you are the one dodging and ignoring other people.
The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataprachtii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
The Roster you provide is convoluted, let me tidy it up to follow the:
BRB, pg. 117, The Force Roster:
"Write down the details of the models that make up your army... This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game."
Terminator Captain
Cataprachtii Terminator Armour
Chainfist/Power Fist (you switched it 2nd time midway with no mention, but lets not worry about that!)
Bike
1) Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is legal choice
2) Bike is legal choice because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
3)Chainfist/power fist choice is Illegal. See the justification and rule entry below:
In Codex Space Marines, Space Marines Wargear List, Terminator Weapons
entry:
"A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Power fist X pts, -Chainfist X pts."
A model, as recorded in Force Roster I kindly provided for you, is not wearing a Terminator armour so therefore cannot replace his power weapon with Power fist or Chainfist. This is because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator armour by definition.
You failed to record your models Force Roster entry in clear manner and you failed to follow the rule set in Terminator Weapons [list] entry. Therefore you ended up with illegal choices for you models.
Ghorgul wrote: As all claims in support of Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour being able to choose options within Terminator Weapons list have been discredited and arguments against the claims stand unchallenged, even outright ignored, we can conclude that:
[list]Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour can have a bike or jump pack.
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour has access to Terminator Weapons, but cannot make any legal choices from the said list.
Quite dodging.
Point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Unless you can point out rules that I break, I am doing something perfectly legitimate and legal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.
Why? The process I outline is thoroughly legal and end results in a 100% legal combination.
Meanwhile, you mention FAQs but fail to deliver as far as posting them.
You have to show a rule being broken here.
Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Your argument has been discredited, by rule quotes in very clear manner. You are ignoring arguments and dodging. You are acting in very disruptive manner. You do not provide rule quotes in support of your claims, yet you demand others to provide rule quotes. When they are provided you ignore them completely and continue repeating your discredited claims.
Man you have gotten sidelined hard! Influx of new posters combined with the col_impact's purposefully convoluted way of presenting buying as a process/sequence where there is no need for that. See above quote, somewhere there is in spoilers the BRB quote for need to provide Force Roster. The Process/Sequence claim has been discredited. And he only brought up Process of buying after he was pressed on about the main issue, which explained in next paragraph.
col_impact's claim boils down to his own assumption that permission in the Army List Entry in Angels of Death Supplement giving Terminator Captain access to Terminator Weapons in Codex Space Marines overrides/allows him to ignore restrictions in Terminator Weapons. Which is incorrect and col_impact has failed to produce rule quote which would indicate permission in Angels of Death to override restrictions in Terminator Weapons [list] in Codex Space Marines. Instead he keeps on spamming the same sequence for buying and same line from Army List Entry for Terminator Captain saying "may take items from Terminator Weapons".
He is trolling, and has been trolling for many pages already after his increasingly imaginative arguments were discredited one at a time.
Thanks dude, I was genuinely confused as to what was actually being argued!
12,000
2017/04/12 07:15:27
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Give it up Col, you are admitted that your method is RAI in your own words. Maybe find or start another thread with another one of your RAI stances veiled with RAW labels that will garner another 20 pages of your trolling.
He does this every single thread. See a thread over 10 pages in ymdc? It's cause of this stuff and the only way to stop it is simply to not bother replying to him. I mean he doesn't seem to even acknowledge responses 90% of the time anyway and mindlessly drones out his point ad infinitum despite being shot down sometimes up to 10 times in a single page.
Klowny wrote: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
Automatically Appended Next Post: AH ok, my bad, I assumed cataphractii armour disallows chainfists. So what is everyone's complaint then? If your allowed to bring cataphractii armour and chainfists, and cataphractii armour doesn't disallow chainfists then it's cool yes?
You shouldn't need a confusing procedure of buying wargear?
You should probably read the Rules As Written and not take anything that Col says as RAW. He tends to flavor his discussion with bias towards a RAI stance on the rules. If you don't have the rules, it is then probably best that you not contribute at all and instead just enjoy the show.
Oh I am
But your right, it seems this argument is an extremely pedantic rules interpretation, and I don't have the rules on me. I just felt that even something of this level of nitpicking should be easily explained to a layman. I've found people who know what they are talking about can explain things to dumbos like me, not just rehash the same point over and over again.
So the break down is..
This spec armour technically isnt termi armour. So can be placed on a bike or use a jumppack.
Col wants to use a chain fist aswell.
His arguement is that the termi cpt has access to the fist so all is g
But the fist requires termi aroumr to buy..
Col argues he buys the fist while he still has termi then swaps to the spec armour.
While the majority argue that it cant be done as it is based on final product not nessasry the order of purchase
2017/04/12 07:16:09
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I already went through this list of yours highlighting in red your use of RAI in making the decisions you make in this futile exercise. I will say this, I am not even arguing against you wanting to do this, only that you continue to claim it is RAW when it is almost entirely RAI. You can try and call your sequenced method of purchasing/choosing gear laissez-faire, but the very fact that you have zero permission to do so in such a manner and you yourself assume that it is the best method to get the results you desire, proves it is a RAI stance and thus invalidates any claim to RAW that you could have.
It's not RAI though. There has to be actually rules in place for a person to take a Rules As Intended approach with them.
With regards to purchasing items, there are no definitive rules telling us how to go about that business.
The only thing that is required of players is that they produce legal combinations for their Army Lists.
So Rules As Written is literally "do what you want" there.
For work I have a rule that I need to show up at 9 AM.
The rules for work don't specify how I get to work. So I am free to get to work however I want.
Man you have gotten sidelined hard! Influx of new posters combined with the col_impact's purposefully convoluted way of presenting buying as a process/sequence where there is no need for that. See above quote, somewhere there is in spoilers the BRB quote for need to provide Force Roster. The Process/Sequence claim has been discredited.
I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This process produces a perfectly legal build which is all that is required for the Force Roster.
You need to point out a rule that states you may purchase options in any order.
If you cannot you have nothing more than a house rule.
My stance at least has precedence, no one has argued that we do not read rules from top to bottom. That is how English is read and how we have been reading codex's and rules since the game came out.
2017/04/12 07:18:50
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Give it up Col, you are admitted that your method is RAI in your own words. Maybe find or start another thread with another one of your RAI stances veiled with RAW labels that will garner another 20 pages of your trolling.
He does this every single thread. See a thread over 10 pages in ymdc? It's cause of this stuff and the only way to stop it is simply to not bother replying to him. I mean he doesn't seem to even acknowledge responses 90% of the time anyway and mindlessly drones out his point ad infinitum despite being shot down sometimes up to 10 times in a single page.
I think it has to do more with the fact that some RAW arguments are unpopular and so take a lot of beating from people.
You need to point out a rule that states you may purchase options in any order.
If you cannot you have nothing more than a house rule.
My stance at least has precedence, no one has argued that we do not read rules from top to bottom. That is how English is read and how we have been reading codex's and rules since the game came out.
I do not. The lack of rule guidance means I can do what I want as long as I produce a legal result for the Force Roster.
There are no rules for what footwear you need to wear to a game of 40k. Therefore you are on your own with regards to footwear.
You are free to come up with your own odd house rules though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:21:42
2017/04/12 07:27:49
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I already went through this list of yours highlighting in red your use of RAI in making the decisions you make in this futile exercise. I will say this, I am not even arguing against you wanting to do this, only that you continue to claim it is RAW when it is almost entirely RAI. You can try and call your sequenced method of purchasing/choosing gear laissez-faire, but the very fact that you have zero permission to do so in such a manner and you yourself assume that it is the best method to get the results you desire, proves it is a RAI stance and thus invalidates any claim to RAW that you could have.
It's not RAI though. There has to be actually rules in place for a person to take a Rules As Intended approach with them. [b]So none of the options for wargear are actually rules? How you tend to read them versus how someone else might read them, in the absence of clear directions, is an assumption on both parties were each party forms their own opinion on what the writers intended the player to do when reading them. That is RAI by the book, which you continue to do and then proclaim it is RAW. Even assuming that reading the options from top to bottom is an assumption on which that party is saying the rules writers intended the player to do when reading them. Again, RAI by the book, albeit much stronger argument then yours.[/b]
With regards to purchasing items, there are no definitive rules telling us how to go about that business. At which time YOU make an assumption on what the rules writers intended for you to do aka RAI!
The only thing that is required of players is that they produce legal combinations for their Army Lists.RAI assumption since I have yet to actually see you cite the RAW for this statement. When you post in absolutes such as "only" and "must", chances are that you absolutely need to be able to cite the RAW that allows you to make such an absolute statement. From what I have seen, you have not once done so.
So Rules As Written is literally "do what you want" there. Another RAI assumption.
For work I have a rule that I need to show up at 9 AM.
The rules for work don't specify how I get to work. So I am free to get to work however I want. Exactly, the rule does not care how you get to work. You assumes the train is the fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Your coworker assumes an Uber is fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Neither of your are wrong and yet neither of you are correct because with the lack of specific clear direction, your boss has left it up to you to assume how he intended you to get to work by 9am. You cannot claim that your boss meant to get to work by 9am via the train as you have nothing to back up that claim just like your coworker cannot claim that your boss meant for you to get to work by 9am via Uber.
Man you have gotten sidelined hard! Influx of new posters combined with the col_impact's purposefully convoluted way of presenting buying as a process/sequence where there is no need for that. See above quote, somewhere there is in spoilers the BRB quote for need to provide Force Roster. The Process/Sequence claim has been discredited.
I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This process produces a perfectly legal build which is all that is required for the Force Roster.
2017/04/12 07:33:36
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This process produces a perfectly legal build which is all that is required for the Force Roster.
The points where it is illegal were pointed out in the quote in my post you just replied to. Also once again, as many times before, you have failed to record Force Roster as demanded by BRB (also quoted in to post you just replied to).
You are ignoring people. You are spamming same claims over and over. You are purposefully disrupting the debate by spamming, grasping on weak arguments while ignoring strong ones. You are not posting rule quotes yourself with clear source markings (bookb, page etc.) but you demand everyone else to post rule quotes. You have broken atleast the tenets 1. and 3. of YMDC.
Tenets.
1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.
Right in this quoted post of yours, you make a statement: "I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules."
You make a statement without prodiving clear support for you claims. You have been pointed out where it is wrong, right in quotes on the post you replied to. Then you were asked to produce rule quote to support you claim against my argumentation but you fail to do that.
2017/04/12 07:34:48
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Exactly, the rule does not care how you get to work. You assumes the train is the fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Your coworker assumes an Uber is fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Neither of your are wrong and yet neither of you are correct because with the lack of specific clear direction, your boss has left it up to you to assume how he intended you to get to work by 9am. You cannot claim that your boss meant to get to work by 9am via the train as you have nothing to back up that claim just like your coworker cannot claim that your boss meant for you to get to work by 9am via Uber.[/b]
Right. So long as I produce a legal build for the roster I have satisfied the Rules As Written.
Keep in mind that I am not telling anyone how to produce a legal build for their rosters. There are no rules so there is no set way to produce a legal build for rosters. If I started forcing people to do it a certain way then I would be trying to implement some house rule of my own. This is what Ceann is doing by telling people to purchase items in a left-right top-down order. However, obviously Ceann is making his stuff up so at best Ceann has his own odd house rule.
The points where it is illegal were pointed out in the quote in my post you just replied to.
Point out where exactly you see something illegal in the process enumerated below . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:46:32
2017/04/12 07:37:40
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: The rules are permission based.
If you are not told how to buy items, then you cannot buy items.
You are told to buy items. The rules don't go into complete detail how you buy items. You are left to work the details out on your own.
Where are you told to buy items?
Spoiler:
To use points limits, you will need to reference each unit’s points value, which you can find in its Army List Entry. Simply add up the points values of all the units in your army, and make sure that the total does not exceed the limit agreed upon for the game.
2017/04/12 07:43:52
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The points where it is illegal were pointed out in the quote in my post you just replied to.
Point out where exactly you see something illegal in the process enumerated below . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
The points where it is illegal were pointed out in the quote in my post you just replied to prior.
You are still spamming same lines of text without providing any rule quotes to support your claim to be allowed to override restrictions in Terminator Weapons [list].
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:46:44
2017/04/12 07:44:19
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Exactly, the rule does not care how you get to work. You assumes the train is the fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Your coworker assumes an Uber is fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Neither of your are wrong and yet neither of you are correct because with the lack of specific clear direction, your boss has left it up to you to assume how he intended you to get to work by 9am. You cannot claim that your boss meant to get to work by 9am via the train as you have nothing to back up that claim just like your coworker cannot claim that your boss meant for you to get to work by 9am via Uber.[/b]
Right. So long as I produce a legal build for the roster I have satisfied the Rules As Written.
With that jump to conclusion you could literally make the next Special Olympics Team! This gaming system is based on RAW and RAI when it comes to rules. You cannot make an assumption on what the rules writers intended, follow that assumption, and then champion it as RAW because you made an assumption of what they intended, not what was written. Just like you could not walk into the office the next day at 9am and declare that riding the train is how your boss intended you to get to work by 9am.
2017/04/12 07:44:26
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: The rules are permission based.
If you are not told how to buy items, then you cannot buy items.
You are told to buy items. The rules don't go into complete detail how you buy items. You are left to work the details out on your own.
Where are you told to buy items?
Spoiler:
To use points limits, you will need to reference each unit’s points value, which you can find in its Army List Entry. Simply add up the points values of all the units in your army, and make sure that the total does not exceed the limit agreed upon for the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is the thing col.
We READ the rules, top to bottom, left to right.
That is how you read in English.
If you ask me to quote a rule we may as well shut down the forum and website because then we are breaking the game.
If a rule is required to read the rules then we could never read the rules, or read the rule about how the rules were to be read.
So unless you want to start making arguments about how we are all reading english incorrectly.
You choose the armor you wear before you choose terminator weapons, special wargear. You will not have an opportunity to choose both the chainfist and bike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:47:47
2017/04/12 07:48:54
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
12,000 
