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2017/04/11 04:37:49
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
That statement is not true, it is some vague statement on the YMDC page.
A logical argument consists of three parts, a premise, an inference and a conclusion.
Now the rules for 40k are not based in logic, arguments are based in logic.
In order to make a logical argument IN 40k then you need to adhere to the RULES of the game WHILE making your argument. Unless you are telling me that you are ignoring the rules of the game and merely making purely logical arguments, in which case you are trolling everyone.
The Terminator Captain is not driving an ambulance, nor is he a driver.
Your statement is false.
If you want to propose a logical argument, do so within the premise of the game.
As I have been saying, your premise is wrong.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 04:39:30
2017/04/11 04:42:19
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I was going to make a comment but I'm not sure what we are talking about any more.
I get a vague sense it is something about whether Cataphractii Terminator armor is a type of terminator armor or some completely different type of armor as far as the written rules go. I got lost when the ambulance stuff started.
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity lasts forever.
Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war.
2017/04/11 04:47:27
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Now the rules for 40k are not based in logic, arguments are based in logic.
In order to make a logical argument IN 40k then you need to adhere to the RULES of the game WHILE making your argument. Unless you are telling me that you are ignoring the rules of the game and merely making purely logical arguments, in which case you are trolling everyone.
The Terminator Captain is not driving an ambulance, nor is he a driver.
Your statement is false.
If you want to propose a logical argument, do so within the premise of the game.
As I have been saying, your premise is wrong.
I have shown the specific overrides general. Its basic logic.
Spoiler:
In logic, specific overrides general.
1) Drivers may not go over the speed limit.
2) Ambulance drivers may go over the speed limit.
The Ambulance driver can go over the speed limit even though that contradicts the general restriction to drivers. The ambulance driver has a more specific permission than the general restriction.
The Terminator Captain has specific permission applied to his very model that he "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]".
Specific permission overrides general restriction.
In summary
Spoiler:
The specific permission granted to the Terminator Captain overrides the more general description text that precludes the permission.
Overrides are specifically applied to text that directly conflicts.
There is a specific rule on the Army List Entry that the captain may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.
There is some descriptive text ("wearing terminator armour") that prevents the captain from taking any and all items for the Terminator Weapons. Text that makes it impossible for the captain to take any item at all directly conflicts with the line "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
So, there is a direct conflict between a specific permission granted to the captain model and a general description.
The specific permission ("may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list) granted to that exact model (the captain) wins out over the general descriptive text ("wearing terminator armour")
2017/04/11 05:08:14
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Drivers are not in the game.
Ambulances are not in the game.
The game does not operate on logic, it operates on a set of rules. if you wish to apply logic to a RULE you can do that, however there is no rule called "specific permission".
If you apply logic to the game WITHOUT account for the rules, then you are not talking about 40k you are talking about reality.
Ceann wrote: In what argument? You don't have one.
This?
"In logic, specific overrides general."
That statement is not true, it is some vague statement on the YMDC page.
Lex specialis anyone? I guess this shows how deep your understanding of logic goes.
Lex specialis is the interpretation of legal language. It has nothing to do with logical arguments. A rule is a rule, it is not logical, you are talking about literal translation of words. 40k has its own set of rules that must be adhered too, like see codex space marines.
More of your word game semantics to fabricate a point that doesn't exist. I guess legal and logic both have the same number of letters with an l and a g so you got them mixed up. You can make a logical argument in lex specialis but only if you are operating under the rules of legality. Just like you can only make a logical 40k argument if you are operating under the rules, which you arent and still have no premise cited.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 05:34:58
2017/04/11 05:52:16
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Direct conflict argument has been discredited, the unit has perfectly legal builds with all the options.
Terminator Weapons specific restrictions are checked both at choosing and at end when you have armylist ready. You need to have Army List Entry with legal options at end. Choosing from Terminator Weapons with Cataprachtii option chosen will lead to illegal build within all the rules considered.
Specific units general level permission to Terminator Weapons cannot override specific restrictions in Terminator Weapons. Overrides actually don't happen unless very specifically stated in the rules itself.
Ghorgul wrote: My argument against col_impact's reasoning of rule specificity still remains unchallenged, actually mostly ignored. Inconvenient truth maybe?
Due to lack of new and credible arguments, I think we can almost unanimously conclude that RAW Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour:
CAN take bike/jump pack etc. as the Cataprachtii Terminator armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
CANNOT take any items from Terminator Weapons as the Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition and because of that is limited by the restrictions stated in Terminator Weapons
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 05:53:14
2017/04/11 06:20:59
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: Direct conflict argument has been discredited, the unit has perfectly legal builds with all the options.
Terminator Weapons specific restrictions are checked both at choosing and at end when you have armylist ready. You need to have Army List Entry with legal options at end. Choosing from Terminator Weapons with Cataprachtii option chosen will lead to illegal build within all the rules considered.
Specific units general level permission to Terminator Weapons cannot override specific restrictions in Terminator Weapons. Overrides actually don't happen unless very specifically stated in the rules itself.
Ghorgul wrote: My argument against col_impact's reasoning of rule specificity still remains unchallenged, actually mostly ignored. Inconvenient truth maybe?
Due to lack of new and credible arguments, I think we can almost unanimously conclude that RAW Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour:
CAN take bike/jump pack etc. as the Cataprachtii Terminator armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
CANNOT take any items from Terminator Weapons as the Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition and because of that is limited by the restrictions stated in Terminator Weapons
RAW the Cataphractii terminator armour does not count as terminatour for all purposes. Wargear selection is one of the purposes excluded. Therefore a Cataphractii captain can take a bike.
RAW the Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. If that specific permission in the Army List Entry conflicts with the more general flavor text of the Terminator Weapons list then the specific permission wins out. There is no choice but to adhere to the Terminator Captain being able to take items for the Terminator Weapons list.
2017/04/11 06:34:47
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Charistoph wrote: BTW, if we are able to ignore restrictions in the Wargear List, then Codex Tacticals, Devastators and Crusaders can take Heavy Flamers! Not to mention we can ignore the restrictions listed for Terminators to be on Bikes and take Jump Packs, or any combination! So, have fun with your Librarian riding a Bike in Terminator Armor with a Jump Pack.
As if anyone would seriously allow that to happen that had any grasp of basic English, context, and grammar.
But then, almost anything's possible in Col_ignored's esoteric grammar dictionary.
That is not what is being discussed at all. Nobody is saying to ignore the restrictions in the Wargear list. Why do you even bother chiming in on discussions about my arguments when you refuse to actually read my arguments first hand?
1) You need to learn what setting someone to "Ignore" means.
2) This discussion is about following the restrictions in the Wargear lists.
3) Heavy Flamers are restricted in the Wargear list in those units just as Terminator Weapons are restricted to those with Terminator Armour and Bikes and Jump Packs are against those wearing Terminator Armour.
So, the concept in the statement is sound, but then, you have always had extreme difficulties following my logic patterns, especially when you stop reading when you are satisfied with what you want to do.
Ceann wrote:The game does not operate on logic, it operates on a set of rules. if you wish to apply logic to a RULE you can do that, however there is no rule called "specific permission".
If you apply logic to the game WITHOUT account for the rules, then you are not talking about 40k you are talking about reality.
Logic is actually part and parcel of any game system, being the set of principles which define the process of a task. It is also a reasoning conducted or assessed to very strict standards of validity.
So, logic is a very important part of any game. It is the only way a game can be performed without breaking.
That being said, not everything GW writes is supported by or usable with logic, especially with some of those FAQs that came out.
Ceann wrote:Semantics.
I love it when some people use this word and they use it as some sort of bad thing. Not saying that's what you are doing here, Ceann, but it is clearly not used properly by many, and definitely not used by Col_Ignored at all. Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.
Therefore, any YMDC discussion is literally semantics. What do the words mean, and how can we use them logically?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2017/04/11 06:39:44
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Charistoph wrote: BTW, if we are able to ignore restrictions in the Wargear List, then Codex Tacticals, Devastators and Crusaders can take Heavy Flamers! Not to mention we can ignore the restrictions listed for Terminators to be on Bikes and take Jump Packs, or any combination! So, have fun with your Librarian riding a Bike in Terminator Armor with a Jump Pack.
As if anyone would seriously allow that to happen that had any grasp of basic English, context, and grammar.
But then, almost anything's possible in Col_ignored's esoteric grammar dictionary.
That is not what is being discussed at all. Nobody is saying to ignore the restrictions in the Wargear list. Why do you even bother chiming in on discussions about my arguments when you refuse to actually read my arguments first hand?
1) You need to learn what setting someone to "Ignore" means.
2) This discussion is about following the restrictions in the Wargear lists.
3) Heavy Flamers are restricted in the Wargear list in those units just as Terminator Weapons are restricted to those with Terminator Armour and Bikes and Jump Packs are against those wearing Terminator Armour.
So, the concept in the statement is sound, but then, you have always had extreme difficulties following my logic patterns, especially when you stop reading when you are satisfied with what you want to do.
The discussion has for quite some been about whether specific permission overrides more general restriction, i.e, whether logic applies. Try to pay attention. If you have me on ignore then you are obviously not paying attention.
Ceann wrote:The game does not operate on logic, it operates on a set of rules. if you wish to apply logic to a RULE you can do that, however there is no rule called "specific permission".
If you apply logic to the game WITHOUT account for the rules, then you are not talking about 40k you are talking about reality.
Logic is actually part and parcel of any game system, being the set of principles which define the process of a task. It is also a reasoning conducted or assessed to very strict standards of validity.
So, logic is a very important part of any game. It is the only way a game can be performed without breaking.
That being said, not everything GW writes is supported by or usable with logic, especially with some of those FAQs that came out.
Ceann wrote:Semantics.
I love it when some people use this word and they use it as some sort of bad thing. Not saying that's what you are doing here, Ceann, but it is clearly not used properly by many [ . . .]. Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.
Therefore, any YMDC discussion is literally semantics. What do the words mean, and how can we use them logically?
These are actually helpful comments. That's good to see. It has been a while since you have contributed much beyond pure disruption in any thread I have been a heavy participant in.
Yup. Ceann has put himself in the awkward position of poo-pooing arguments that use logic and semantics as a guide. I guess he has forgotten that logic and semantics are critical components of written language and games.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 07:02:35
2017/04/11 07:37:35
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
col_impact wrote: RAW the Cataphractii terminator armour does not count as terminatour for all purposes. Wargear selection is one of the purposes excluded. Therefore a Cataphractii captain can take a bike.
RAW the Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. If that specific permission in the Army List Entry conflicts with the more general flavor text of the Terminator Weapons list then the specific permission wins out. There is no choice but to adhere to the Terminator Captain being able to take items for the Terminator Weapons list.
Incorrect. You credit one rule as specific permission, while the other rule you credit to be "general flavor text" by only your own choice. That is something you do not get to decide.
We are trying to have rules debate and then you start argumenting that one rule is "general flavor text" = fluff text? Your argument is that one piece of text is rule, while the other clear restriction is fluff text? That certainly is something you do not get to decide.
We have 2 rules which are described by certain sub-rules to them. Both are independent, equal entities. Neither rule can claim to be more specific.
1. Terminator Captain - Has permission to take weapons from Terminator Weapons.
2. Terminator weapons - Includes restriction that "A model wearing a terminator armor may replace.." and then the listed options.
Neither rule can be claimed to be more specific, or more general. Therefore when making choices for your Army List Entry, you need to follow all the permissions and restrictions set in relevant rules in to order to have Army List Entry with legal options in the end.
The discussion has for quite some been about whether specific permission overrides more general restriction, i.e, whether logic applies. Try to pay attention. If you have me on ignore then you are obviously not paying attention.
You keep arguing that Army List Entry gives specific permission to Terminator Weapons, this is true.
You however argue that the Rule for Terminator Weapons entry in Space Marines Wargear List is general. This is not the case.
Space marine codex lists material in following way:
Forces of the Space Marines:
1. Space marines wargear list - an independent in entry in the listing of all the forces available.
2. All the army list entries.
3. All the formations.
Every choice is listed as an independent entry in the list "Forces of the Space Marines" list, therefore they are equal.
Space marines wargear list is special kind of entry in the listing, as any Army List Entry given specific permission to use it may access it within the restrictions set in the "Space marines wargear list" entry.
Therefore the entries listed above are equal, with no one being more general or specific than the other. This makes the "Space Marines Wargear List" independent and equal entry with all the formations and army list entries available.
As explained above, specific permission on one entry on the "Forces of the Space Marines" or on entry in Angels of Death cannot override specific restriction on another entry in "Forces of the Space Marines", especially when the specific permission guides you to the entry "Space Marines Wargear List" in "Forces of the Space Marines" in Codex Space Marines.
Angels of Death is a supplement and does not override any permissions or restrictions stated in Codex Space Marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 08:10:35
2017/04/11 08:21:01
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The only way to properly, and acceptably, override this position, is to acknowledge that a terminator captain, wearing cataphractii terminator armour, is in fact wearing terminator armour.
JamesY wrote: The only way to properly, and acceptably, override this position, is to acknowledge that a terminator captain, wearing cataphractii terminator armour, is in fact wearing terminator armour.
I am also pretty sure that no one would object to you if you house rule your Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour to be wearing a Terminator Armour This [house ruling] would probably even be allowed in Tournaments if discussed prior with TO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 08:27:26
2017/04/11 11:44:07
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You have been attempting to pass of legal jargon as logic which it is not.
You have attempted to apply ONLY literal translations of words while ignoring the fact that the game rules exist, which is what I specifically pointed out.
You have not, and still have not, cited your source that states a supplement overrides a codex. You also have not provided a premise that the rules work in this way and have failed to provide an actual in game example using game rules.
I am getting the impression that you are incapable of doing so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 156 BRB.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or Bends the rules it is represented by a special rule.
Does the terminator captain have a special rule that allows him to ignore the governing rule for terminator weapons.
No.
Also page 156, a model might gain special rules as a result of psychic powers, scenario special rules, or a piece of terrain.
Has the terminator captain gained a special rule?
No.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 12:12:34
2017/04/11 13:10:03
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You keep arguing that Army List Entry gives specific permission to Terminator Weapons, this is true.
You however argue that the Rule for Terminator Weapons entry in Space Marines Wargear List is general. This is not the case.
Space marine codex lists material in following way:
Forces of the Space Marines:
1. Space marines wargear list - an independent in entry in the listing of all the forces available.
2. All the army list entries.
3. All the formations.
Every choice is listed as an independent entry in the list "Forces of the Space Marines" list, therefore they are equal.
Space marines wargear list is special kind of entry in the listing, as any Army List Entry given specific permission to use it may access it within the restrictions set in the "Space marines wargear list" entry.
Therefore the entries listed above are equal, with no one being more general or specific than the other. This makes the "Space Marines Wargear List" independent and equal entry with all the formations and army list entries available.
As explained above, specific permission on one entry on the "Forces of the Space Marines" or on entry in Angels of Death cannot override specific restriction on another entry in "Forces of the Space Marines", especially when the specific permission guides you to the entry "Space Marines Wargear List" in "Forces of the Space Marines" in Codex Space Marines.
Angels of Death is a supplement and does not override any permissions or restrictions stated in Codex Space Marines.
Actually I have to modify my earlier argument (quoted above in spoilers):
Entries listed in are Forces of the Space Marines are equal entries, yes. However the Space Marines Wargear List, or sublists contained within, as such are not accessible without specific permission granted in the options of specific Army List Entry. Already this fact should prove against of them being treated as general rule, as they are in no way freely accessible to all the space marines. This makes for example the Terminator Weapons sublist to be acting as a special rule given to the unit. This causes every item given to the unit to essentially be special rule, which the Army List Entry acquires either by default or by some specific earlier choices.
This may sound a bit weird, but think of this this way: You have a single Space Marine model with Furious Charge and Powerfist. Now Furious Charge is an USR, and Powerfist is an Item. The exact classifications do not matter, both are actually and effectively just special rules, subrules, or just simply rules, which state how the unit is played.
Let me demonstrate this. Subrules are marked with different amounts of X's, with one X being the Army List Entry we start with.
Spoiler:
X Captain
XX Bolt pistol
XX Chainsword
XX Frag grenades
XX Krak Grenades
XX Iron Halo
XX And the Shall Know No Fear USR XX Chapter Tactics
XX Independent Character
XX Melee weapons
XXX Melee Weapons: No choice
XX Ranged weapons
XXX Ranged Weapons: No Choice
XX Special Issue Wargear
XXX Special Issue Wargear: Terminator Armour (X pts.)
Now, choosing the Terminator Armour grants the model access to rule Terminator Weapons, but you loose access to Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons
XX Terminator Weapons
XXX Terminator Weapons: Thunder Hammer (X pts.) choosing this rule has restriction that model needs to be wearing Terminator Armour
XXX Terminator Weapons: Storm Shield (X pts.) choosing this rule has restriction that model needs to be wearing Terminator Armour
Now 40k rules demand that you need to have legal armylist choices. They are only checked at end, when you finish choosing options and upgrades to your Army List Entry. In above list no choices were made from Melee Weapons or Ranged Weapons, and the rule giving you access to these was lost after picking Terminator Armour.
In the case of Terminator Captain you have always access to the rule Terminator weapons, but cannot make any selections from options allowed in Terminator Weapons Rule when wearing Cataprachtii Terminator Armour because Cataprachtii is not a Terminator Armour by definition.
As stated earlier, there is kind of direct conflict: Model has a Terminator Weapons rule with further options that cannot be chosen legally.
1. Well RAW, you need to follow the rules and you cannot claim that the Terminator Weapons-Rule (access to the list: the Model just has a rule stating it MAY take items=rules from Terminator Weapons-Rule) somehow overrides the options = rules contained within the Terminator Weapons-Rule.
2. Other argument against direct conflict argument is that the you are never always forced to a situation where you gain the Terminator Weapons-Rule, but do not get to make in further choices from that Rule. You can always choose Terminator Captain to not have Cataprachtii Terminator Armour. Therefore the direct conflict is self-caused by choosing Cataprachtii Terminator Armour=Rule for your Terminator Captain. Charging on same turn after deepstriking is also self-caused rules conflict, unless specifically allowed by the unit's own rules. And self-caused rules conflicts fall under the category of Break no Rule.
3. Anyway with access to Terminator Weapons you are never forced to choose items from the list, therefore you have to follow all the limitations contained in Terminator Weapons list.
In short, claim that if model has a rule giving it access to Space Marine Wargear List entry subrule Terminator Weapons somehow overrides all the options=rules contained within the accessed Rule Terminator Weapons is hopelessly incorrect
And in no way can you consider Terminator Weapons a general rule as you need specific rule to be contained in Army List Entry that allows you to use Terminator Weapons rule and the options contained within.
2017/04/11 15:28:49
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
col_impact wrote: RAW the Cataphractii terminator armour does not count as terminatour for all purposes. Wargear selection is one of the purposes excluded. Therefore a Cataphractii captain can take a bike.
RAW the Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons if he is wearing Terminator Armor" list. If that specific permission in the Army List Entry conflicts with the more general flavor text of the Terminator Weapons list then the specific permission wins out. There is no choice but to adhere to the Terminator Captain being able to take items for the Terminator Weapons list.
Corrected that for you.
2017/04/11 15:49:26
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
JamesY wrote: Your scenario isn't impossible col. As you present it, the model can access the terminator wargear. If he chooses to upgrade to cataphracti armour, he would then loose access to it, at which point it is a redundant option. It is possible for him to access it as long as he remains in his original terminator armour.
Does the Option say "may take items" or "may access items"? I don't think you are paying attention to the difference there.
And if he's wearing terminator armor he still meets the requirements in the terminator weapons section of wearing terminator armor, thus actually getting to choose a weapon from the list. He doesn't get a bike from the list though as terminator armor prevents that.
If he chooses to take cataphracti armor, he knows that he loses access to anything on the terminator weapons list that requires terminator armor (which is everything on the list) by dint of choosing to get rid of the terminator armor. This same choice allows him to take a bike because of the terminator armor.
Just because it says "may take", doesn't mean that you get to choose items from a list that are prohibited to take because of the CHOICE you made in armor. If you wish something from that list in specific, make your CHOICE to have the right armor. There is nothing in "may take" that specifically overrides the prohibitions in the list themselves about what armor precludes someone from taking something. If, as you assert, "may take" does override specirfic restrictions - something you have been repeatedly asked by people to provide but have failed to do so - then by applying the exact same standard captains in terminator armor may purchase bikes, and may purchase multiple relics because they are told they can take items (plural) from the relics list.
Do what codex space marines says. It isn't rocket science.
And specific permission provided by the Angels of Death Codex Supplement is going to override more general restriction in Codex Space Marines. As you say, it isn't rocket science.
It is going to override restrictions that it specifically states it's overriding (such as Wrath of Magnus datasheets overwriting earlier datasheets). Things where it tells you to see the parent codex does not mean it is overwritten. Apparently it's more rocket science than you think.
He also has no rules that lets him bypass the restrictions normally in place.
So, if he is in Terminator Armour, he may select items. If not, he may select any item that he meets the qualifications for-that is, none of them.
So if there is some general restriction that he may not take any of them then that is in direct conflict with his specific permission that he 'may take items', correct?
No, not then his being restricted from them is the result of a choice he made taking another item, and that item precludes him from taking from that list. That is, unless it is specifically stated that the restrictions on the list are overridden. "May take items from" is not specific permission. Therefore, he is denied from taking items from that list because of his choice to take a different item.
You are determining on your own, without discussion which is a general statement and which is a specific statement. You have already demonstrated that you are incapable of making a logical argument as you have failed to properly assemble all of the components required to pose one, multiple times.
Incorrect. My logical arguments have been fashioned correctly and have been sound.
No, they really haven't been either, to be honest. We've demonstrated why - I've shown you that by using your own "logical arguments" we end up with terminator captains riding bikes while festooned with all the relics he has points for.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 16:11:18
2017/04/11 17:10:59
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
It clearly overrides nothing because the entire data sheet is plastered with a rubber stamp of "see Codex: Space Marines"
It doesn't state anything is overridden or replaced. A rule page has not been quoted that says it does. As far as I aware data sheets of essentially the same unit, such as inquisition and imperial agents, do not override each other, they are their own individual data sheets.
The data sheet in question explicitly tells us to use the SM codex.
2017/04/11 17:28:14
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: It clearly overrides nothing because the entire data sheet is plastered with a rubber stamp of "see Codex: Space Marines"
It doesn't state anything is overridden or replaced. A rule page has not been quoted that says it does. As far as I aware data sheets of essentially the same unit, such as inquisition and imperial agents, do not override each other, they are their own individual data sheets.
The data sheet in question explicitly tells us to use the SM codex.
Ah, it tells us to use the SM Codex in a cunning ploy to lull the SM Codex into a false sense of security so that it doesn't know it's being overridden until it's too late!
2017/04/11 17:34:11
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: It clearly overrides nothing because the entire data sheet is plastered with a rubber stamp of "see Codex: Space Marines"
It doesn't state anything is overridden or replaced. A rule page has not been quoted that says it does. As far as I aware data sheets of essentially the same unit, such as inquisition and imperial agents, do not override each other, they are their own individual data sheets.
The data sheet in question explicitly tells us to use the SM codex.
Ah, it tells us to use the SM Codex in a cunning ploy to lull the SM Codex into a false sense of security so that it doesn't know it's being overridden until it's too late!
Shussh now, keep quiet! This is a still unknown Zero-Day Vulnerability in the rules that will be only used in the direst need for RAWWAAC list to win a critical game!
2017/04/11 18:00:24
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
He also has no rules that lets him bypass the restrictions normally in place.
So, if he is in Terminator Armour, he may select items. If not, he may select any item that he meets the qualifications for-that is, none of them.
So if there is some general restriction that he may not take any of them then that is in direct conflict with his specific permission that he 'may take items', correct?
No, not then his being restricted from them is the result of a choice he made taking another item, and that item precludes him from taking from that list. That is, unless it is specifically stated that the restrictions on the list are overridden. "May take items from" is not specific permission. Therefore, he is denied from taking items from that list because of his choice to take a different item.
All of you are relying on a notion of history to hand-wave away the direct conflict between the specific permission and the general restriction. This is not the first time I have pointed out the counter argument's reliance on history. A direct conflict exists if any choice violates the specific permission.
To wrap your heads around history, let's consider this RAW argument . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 18:18:05
2017/04/11 18:52:03
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
To wrap your heads around history, let's consider this RAW argument . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
Incorrect.
End result is you have a Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour with Chainfist and Bike. The final Terminator Captain model has no history or memory, as you stated. Therefore the build is illegal.
We see that having Cataprachtii Terminator Armour and Chainfist chosen simultaneously is not allowed. This is because, as explained in very detailed manner by many people earlier, as per restrictions in Terminator Weapons a model without Terminator Armour Cannot choose Chainfist from the options available.
You cannot play with the order you pick options. When you have prepared your Armylist, with the Terminator Captain with chosen wargear and items, the Terminator Captain needs to follow all the rules simultaneously. It does not matter in which order you pick the wargear, you just need to have made legal collection of choices at end without breaking any rules or other restrictions.
2017/04/11 18:52:38
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
No Col. This us wrong, your argument has no value.
The reason your argument has no value is that the rules of 40k are primary and logic is supplementary to the rules. You are not trying to use logic to support a rule, you are trying to use legality on word definitions to fabricate your own rules that do not exist.
You went to the beach and came back with sea shells and oysters and while you can convince people and get them to agree that they are different things, you cannot use them to buy a sandwich, they are not a valid form of currency.
All rules were not followed, all WORDS in a sentence were followed, the rules were ignored.
Cite direct conflict, specific permission and general permission from the BRB, codex, or the supplement, with the page numbers please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 18:54:23
2017/04/11 18:54:27
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
1. A SM Captain buys a bike. He's in power armor at the time, so it's legal.
2. He trades his power armor for terminator armor.
3) He buys a power fist.
We now have a Captain on a bike with a power fist, using your criteria of the order you purchase things. Yet, we know this isn't allowed.
Ironically, you have derided us for relying on a notion of history claiming we're hand waving something away, but that's exactly what you're doing here. You're trying to rely on the history of the order of purchasing things so that you can end up with a combination that you do not get to have normally. Where is the RAW that you rely on the order of purchasing things so that you may buy things that you can't purchase later when you get something else? GW has shot this down in FAQs.
But, at least it seems you're trying to abandon your previous "logical arguments" that were "fashioned correctly and have been sound" about the supplement overriding the codex when it's been proven that it doesn't without a specific statement that it's overriding the codex. Not that you're admitting it. But, you've gone back to the old wheeze of trying to game the order things are purchased in to end up with a combination that you can't purchase normally (i.e. you just look at the sheet and see that the combination you have isn't allowed - which is how GW handles it now)
2017/04/11 19:04:53
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
He never cites anything as the tenets dictate.
He never tells you what document he gets these rules from.
You are required by the forum rules to present a premise, he never does this.
He calls legal terminology, logic, which it isn't and never uses said inferences to support actual rules, he uses literal words as a replacement for rules.
How many tenets can you break in one post?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 19:29:19
2017/04/11 19:38:37
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
doctortom wrote: 1. A SM Captain buys a bike. He's in power armor at the time, so it's legal.
2. He trades his power armor for terminator armor.
3) He buys a power fist.
We now have a Captain on a bike with a power fist, using your criteria of the order you purchase things.
This isn't the same scenario at all.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
My end result was a model that has permission to take all of its wargear selections. The combination is completely allowed.
Remember, a Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii terminator armour.
That means the combination is perfectly legal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghorgul wrote: Also I dont understand how you can claim your choices are "perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken."
You clearly broke the restriction on Terminator Weapons by having Chainfist at end with no Terminator Armour on the model.
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghorgul wrote: you just need to have made legal collection of choices at end without breaking any rules or other restrictions.
The Terminator Captain does have a legal collection of choices. No rule was broken and no rule is broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: Ironically, you have derided us for relying on a notion of history claiming we're hand waving something away, but that's exactly what you're doing here. You're trying to rely on the history of the order of purchasing things so that you can end up with a combination that you do not get to have normally. Where is the RAW that you rely on the order of purchasing things so that you may buy things that you can't purchase later when you get something else? GW has shot this down in FAQs.
The irony is intentional ("to wrap your heads around history, let's consider this RAW argument . . .").
The interesting thing is that history isn't exactly against the rules.
To the matter at hand . . . .
I have outlined an entirely legal following of the rules. Feel free to cite any rule that forbids me from doing so.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 20:08:17
2017/04/11 20:23:42
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You declaring your view legal and according to RAW isblike me declaring myself Star Lord. We are both wrong and we are both looked at like we are crazy.
But on topic, in your example why are you presuming that the Terminator Captain is still a Terminator Captain after equipping himself with Cataphracti Armor? Would he not then be a Cataphracti Captain and since your view is that Cataphracti is only terminator armor for a select set of purposes, the captain is not in Terminator armor at all and thus would not be allowed to take any weapons that are specifically restricted to those wearing Terminator armor.
A Wolf Lord could take terminator armor and have access to special issue warhead. IIRC one of those items in the special issue wargear was a TWC. But the wording of the TWC did not allow terminator armor. By your standard the wolf Lord could have bought the TWC first and then been allowed to buy the terminator armor? Or since he had permission from the get go to purchase from special issue, he could override the are striction on the TWC?
2017/04/11 20:28:30
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataprachtii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
