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Col, if a model says "May take items from X list", but X list has restrictions preventing them from taking items, are they allowed to take items or not?

No, they are not.

I would like to hear Col's answer.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Col, if a model says "May take items from X list", but X list has restrictions preventing them from taking items, are they allowed to take items or not?

Yes. If that model has specific permission to take items from a general list then it can indeed take items from that list.

If that list has a general condition that would be directly violated by that specific permission then the specific permission wins out.

You cannot ignore the model's specific permission "may take items from Terminator Weapons" list.

Iron Priests may take from the Special Issue Wargear.

By your logic, they may take a Jump Pack.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Iron Priests may take from the Special Issue Wargear.

By your logic, they may take a Jump Pack.

Iron Priests may take items from the Special Issue Wargear list

That does not mean they make take all items from the Special Issue Wargear list.

The specific restriction that Iron Priests may not take jump packs (which is only one item on a list of many) is not in direct conflict with "may take items from the Special Issue Wargear" list. The Iron Priest can still take melta bombs, digital weapons, and/or a bike. That satisfies "may take items".

A blanket restriction that prevented the Iron Priests from taking any items on the Special Issue Wargear list would be in direct conflict with a rule permitting the Iron Priest to take items from the Special Issue Wargear list.

This is the exact same circumstance.

You have a model that can draw from a list, but some items on the list are restricted. So, they cannot take restricted items.

It just so happens in the Captain's case that ALL items are restricted, but the fundamental issue is the same.

Either a Cataphractii Captain is in Terminator Armour, and may take Terminator Items but not stuff like Jump Packs, or he is not in Terminator Armour, and may take stuff like Bikes, but cannot take Terminator Items.

 JNAProductions wrote:
This is the exact same circumstance.

You have a model that can draw from a list, but some items on the list are restricted. So, they cannot take restricted items.

It just so happens in the Captain's case that ALL items are restricted, but the fundamental issue is the same.

Incorrect. The issue is not the same. There is in this case a DIRECT CONFLICT. A model cannot be in the position of being able to take items and not being able to take any items at the same time.

In the cases of direct conflict specific permission statements override more general rules statements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:


Either a Cataphractii Captain is in Terminator Armour, and may take Terminator Items but not stuff like Jump Packs, or he is not in Terminator Armour, and may take stuff like Bikes, but cannot take Terminator Items.

There is no either or. There is only one way of reading the Rules As Written.

Well, at least all but one of us are in agreement with what's the case if you strictly read as written. BTW, fun avatar, JNA, just got in to the series.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Well, at least all but one of us are in agreement with what's the case if you strictly read as written. BTW, fun avatar, JNA, just got in to the series.

Yeah, it's great! No spoilers, but hot DAMN is Nox a good villain!

Anyway.

A model wearing Cataphractii Terminator armour counts as wearing Terminator Armour for the purposes of embarking within Transport vehicles, the use of teleport homers, and for the purposes of Formation Restrictions.

Notice how nowhere does it state that it counts as Terminator Armour for the purposes of selecting equipment. There is no conflict here-there is a list that is restricted, causing him to not be able to select anything from the list. It's badly written, if you adhere to the belief that this Captain can take bikes and such, but it's not a contradiction. Just dumb writing.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Well, at least all but one of us are in agreement with what's the case if you strictly read as written. BTW, fun avatar, JNA, just got in to the series.

I am the only one strictly adhering to the Rules As Written.

No, you are ignoring the part where it says models in Terminator Armour may take those items.

If you have 20$, and you walk into a store where the cheapest item is $30, you are able to select whatever you like from the store. You just can't afford it.

Likewise, he is given access to that list, but separately, there are restrictions that prevent him from actually taking anything.

 JNAProductions wrote:
There is no conflict here-there is a list that is restricted, causing him to not be able to select anything from the list.

If he can't take ANY items from the list then there is a conflict with a rule that grants permission to "may take items".

You aren't adhering to the Rules As Written.

He may take any items that the list allows him to take.

Again, by your logic, Iron Priests get to take Jump Packs.

I totally agree-if we accept that Cataphractii Captains are not Terminators, it's very poorly written. But That doesn't change the facts.

 JNAProductions wrote:
No, you are ignoring the part where it says models in Terminator Armour may take those items.

If you have 20$, and you walk into a store where the cheapest item is $30, you are able to select whatever you like from the store. You just can't afford it.

Likewise, he is given access to that list, but separately, there are restrictions that prevent him from actually taking anything.

Does the permission say "may take items" or "may ponder items"?

"May take items"

That is, any items that he is not restricted from taking.

Which is all of them.

I certainly agree that if you treat him as not in Terminator Armour, it's dumb, but that doesn't change facts.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Again, by your logic, Iron Priests get to take Jump Packs.

Incorrect. And I have proven this.

An Iron Priest permission to "may take items" is only violated if he cannot take any items, not if his selection is partially limited. The Iron Priest can still satisfy "may take items" by being able to take the non-jump items.

You are making a bad strawman argument.

Feel free to continue pushing the strawman argument. It only makes your argument look weak.

JNA, just don't bother. He's clearly not listening. Everyone else gets it.

And yeah, it's just one of the most well-made just-plain-fun series I've seen in some time. Another french series in a similar quality and style (and some of the same VO IIRC) though notably more serious tone is The Long, Long Vacation.

 JNAProductions wrote:
"May take items"

That is, any items that he is not restricted from taking.

Which is all of them.

I certainly agree that if you treat him as not in Terminator Armour, it's dumb, but that doesn't change facts.

If he is restricted from taking all of them, then it directly conflicts with the permission to "may take items".

In the case of direct conflict, the specific permission given the model wins out over the general nonspecific restriction.

No It doesn't. If you are at a restaurant and the server tells you "we have no icecream today" and you demand a vanilla shake because it's a specific type of icecream and therefore not subject to the waiter's general provisions. You still won't get any icecream.

 MattKing wrote:
No It doesn't. If you are at a restaurant and the server tells you "we have no icecream today" and you demand a vanilla shake because it's a specific type of icecream and therefore not subject to the waiter's general provisions. You still won't get any icecream.

What does any of this have to do with anything?

Keep in mind tenet #3 of YMDC.

Examples need to be directly relevant to 40k.

We are talking about the specific permission granted to a specific model to take items overriding a general restriction to not take any items. This is a permissive ruleset not a restaurant.

Huh. Ok, I'm out.
Anything I type in an attempt to further simplify this argument reads like I'm just making fun of the slow kid.

Whoever has the last word on this silly forum looses.

Yeah, he will repeat that half of a sentence ad nauseum.

 MattKing wrote:
Huh. Ok, I'm out.
Anything I type in an attempt to further simplify this argument reads like I'm just making fun of the slow kid.

Whoever has the last word on this silly forum looses.

You might review Tenet #5 as well.

I think you should attend to the shortcomings of your argument rather than making a personal attack.

col_impact wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
There is no conflict here-there is a list that is restricted, causing him to not be able to select anything from the list.

If he can't take ANY items from the list then there is a conflict with a rule that grants permission to "may take items".

You aren't adhering to the Rules As Written.

This is an entirely bogus line of thought.
When we were talking about RG you freely made any assumption you wished and stated you were allowed to do so.
You assumed what you were permitted to do before, and now you claim you are explictly permitted, there is no common stance in your arguments.
Now you are taking the exact opposite approach, you interpret the rules in the most exploitative manner possible, every time.

You can open any codex for SM, Deathwatch, GK, this supplement is worded the same, EVERY SINGLE ONE is worded the same. ALL OF THEM.

It states...
"Captain, Librarian, Chaplain etc etc ....IN Terminator armor MAY take items from...

You are required to be IN Terminator armor before you are allowed to take those items, the may is predicated upon being in Terminator armor.

This other armor only COUNTS AS Terminator armor for transportation and formation purposes, it does not state it is permitted to count as for wargear purposes.
By the logic you are using any model can buy any terminator weapons they wish because it says MAY even if they are wearing PA, in this circumstance by the wording the unit is wearing some type of armor other than "Terminator Armor" and actually paying the point cost for the armor is something you can choose to ignore.

As was stated before there are only two options.

1. Either a Cataphractii Captain is in Terminator Armour, and may take Terminator Items
or
2. He is not in Terminator Armour, and may take stuff like Bikes, and may not take Terminator Items.

Ceann wrote:


You can open any codex for SM, Deathwatch, GK, this supplement is worded the same, EVERY SINGLE ONE is worded the same. ALL OF THEM.

It states...
"Captain, Librarian, Chaplain etc etc ....IN Terminator armor MAY take items from...

What does this particular supplement (Angels of Death) say?



So the Terminator Captain model has specific permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether or not that model swaps its terminator armour for Cataphractii armour.

You are cutting off part of the sentence.

By the logic you are using, any character, in any SM,DW,GK codex can purchase items directly from terminator gear?

It's not really worth arguing with col_impact about this. No one has ever been able to convince them of being wrong about a matter before no matter how hard they try even if it's obvious and the conversation always ends up going around it circles.

It's just a waste of time and energy.

You have an excellent name sir.

Ceann wrote:
You are cutting off part of the sentence.

By the logic you are using, any character, in any SM,DW,GK codex can purchase items directly from terminator gear?

Are you looking at the Angel of Death supplement? It's important to look at the actual rules in question.

This is an option on the Terminator Captain Army List Entry . . .