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col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Cataphractii TERMINATOR ARMOUR
Chainfist
LEGAL.

Add bike, not legal.

Why, because as the SM codex states, terminator may NOT take a bike or jump pack.

And this is a terminator captain from AoD? Who if you wish may wear Cataphractii terminator armour, which is terminator armour!

NO BIKE!!!

Cataphractii terminator armour isn't terminator armour.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

NOT INCORRECT: How can you be a TERMINATOR CAPTAIN if your not a TERMINATOR!!!! Therefore you have TERMINATOR ARMOUR, so pick any terminator wargear, of which a BIKE and JUMPPACK is specifically Excluded.

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

Incorrect. He selects his armour after swapping his power sword for a chain fist. Perfectly legal.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be a legal combination...? Am I wrong?

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

NOT INCORRECT: How can you be a TERMINATOR CAPTAIN if your not a TERMINATOR!!!! Therefore you have TERMINATOR ARMOUR, so pick any terminator wargear, of which a BIKE and JUMPPACK is specifically Excluded.

Dude, you need to sit down. This discussion is strictly about literal interpretations of the words as written. No one would ever entertain this in an actual game, except maybe Col.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

NOT INCORRECT: How can you be a TERMINATOR CAPTAIN if your not a TERMINATOR!!!! Therefore you have TERMINATOR ARMOUR, so pick any terminator wargear, of which a BIKE and JUMPPACK is specifically Excluded.

Please start with reading the actual rules involved before polluting the thread with uninformed opinion. At the very least, read this entire thread.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

Laissez-faire has no place in a RAW discussion. You do know that RAW stands for Rules As Written correct? That means there is no devil may care attitude in the reading of the RAW. However, your history of rules arguments does indeed show a laissez-faire attitude to the RAW aka Rules As Written. Your attitude is also known as RAI.

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

We actually have a precedence for buying items.
Choose any unit you like in the codex.

The first choice will be purchasing models and each subsequent choice will be permitted based on the number of models purchased or items. You cannot choose to buy 5 chain fists without having first purchased 5 models to wield them.

This tells us that the armor type must be decided as it is the second option, prior to the decision of choosing weapons or special wargear.
This is totally allowable in the rules and legal.

.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

Of coarse it is. How with a straight face can you say Cataphractii TERMINATOR armourr in not NERMINATOR armour?

My power armour squads use Mk3 armour, so they dont have to follow rules for power armour because Mk3 power armour inst power armour?

My terminator captain doesn't have to follow the terminator captain rules because he really the emperor in disguise.

Quote any source - prove that Cataphractii TERMINATOR armour is not TERMINATOR armour!

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

So I buy the armour, and then the chainfist? Yes? So that whole procedure you had before wasn't necessary. This is a much easier way if arguing your point dude. No need for that process you had before? Unless I'm missing something? If there is an exclusion one way won't that mean the other way also has an exclusion?

Now I'm really confused

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

Of coarse it is. How with a straight face can you say Cataphractii TERMINATOR armourr in not NERMINATOR armour?

My power armour squads use Mk3 armour, so they dont have to follow rules for power armour because Mk3 power armour inst power armour?

My terminator captain doesn't have to follow the terminator captain rules because he really the emperor in disguise.

Quote any source - prove that Cataphractii TERMINATOR armour is not TERMINATOR armour!

No offense dude, but you are actually more annoying then Col. Take a breather and read this thread;

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Ceann wrote:


We actually have a precedence for buying items.
Choose any unit you like in the codex.

The first choice will be purchasing models and each subsequent choice will be permitted based on the number of models purchased or items. You cannot choose to buy 5 chain fists without having first purchased 5 models to wield them.

This tells us that the armor type must be decided as it is the second option, prior to the decision of choosing weapons or special wargear.
This is totally allowable in the rules and legal.

Cool. Why don't you submit that to the Proposed Rules section? See if you can get your buddies to accept this very unique house rule!

I will stick with the actual rules in the BRB, however.

Ok, so just a summary then.

Since we have to buy items from top to bottom, we must decide what type of armor we would like to dress our fancy Terminator Ken doll in, prior to deciding what accessories he wants to take.

This is all perfectly legal and allowable in the rules.
We have precedence that shows purchases are made from the top down because units must be purchased before wargear for units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


We actually have a precedence for buying items.
Choose any unit you like in the codex.

The first choice will be purchasing models and each subsequent choice will be permitted based on the number of models purchased or items. You cannot choose to buy 5 chain fists without having first purchased 5 models to wield them.

This tells us that the armor type must be decided as it is the second option, prior to the decision of choosing weapons or special wargear.
This is totally allowable in the rules and legal.

Cool. Why don't you submit that to the Proposed Rules section? See if you can get your buddies to accept this very unique house rule!

I will stick with the actual rules in the BRB, however.

So you are asserting we do not read the rules from top to bottom?

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

So I buy the armour, and then the chainfist? Yes? So that whole procedure you had before wasn't necessary. This is a much easier way if arguing your point dude. No need for that process you had before? Unless I'm missing something? If there is an exclusion one way won't that mean the other way also has an exclusion?

Now I'm really confused

Maybe you could start with reading the rules in question. Have you looked at Angels of Death?

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


We actually have a precedence for buying items.
Choose any unit you like in the codex.

The first choice will be purchasing models and each subsequent choice will be permitted based on the number of models purchased or items. You cannot choose to buy 5 chain fists without having first purchased 5 models to wield them.

This tells us that the armor type must be decided as it is the second option, prior to the decision of choosing weapons or special wargear.
This is totally allowable in the rules and legal.

Cool. Why don't you submit that to the Proposed Rules section? See if you can get your buddies to accept this very unique house rule!

I will stick with the actual rules in the BRB, however.

Except you don't stick to the rules in the BRB or any book for that matter. You form RAI arguments, toss a faux RAW label on them, and the repeat ad nauseam until threads get locked.

Ceann wrote:


So you are asserting we do not read the rules from top to bottom?

I am asserting there are no rules for how exactly we purchase items.

The rules only require for us to produce legal combinations for Force Orgs

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

So I buy the armour, and then the chainfist? Yes? So that whole procedure you had before wasn't necessary. This is a much easier way if arguing your point dude. No need for that process you had before? Unless I'm missing something? If there is an exclusion one way won't that mean the other way also has an exclusion?

Now I'm really confused

Maybe you could start with reading the rules in question. Have you looked at Angels of Death?

Unfortunatwh I don't have the rules. I understand the gist of the argument, I'm just confused as to how buying wargear in order isn't possible, (armour before weapon) and the other way it is.

If there is a restriction on wargear due to other factors then it has to go both ways.

 Klowny wrote:


Unfortunatwh I don't have the rules. I understand the gist of the argument, I'm just confused as to how buying wargear in order isn't possible, (armour before weapon) and the other way it is.

If there is a restriction on wargear due to other factors then it has to go both ways.

The actual model has permission to take Terminator Weapons, so once the model actually has a Terminator Weapon there is no problem.

However, in order to swap the model's power sword for a chainfist for example the model must be in default state (which is terminator armour)

So order becomes important in order to reach at desired build.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


So you are asserting we do not read the rules from top to bottom?

I am asserting there are no rules for how exactly we purchase items.

The rules only require for us to produce legal combinations for Force Orgs

So I can buy 5 chain fists for one model? Such as the Cataphractii Terminator Squad on the next page?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


So you are asserting we do not read the rules from top to bottom?

I am asserting there are no rules for how exactly we purchase items.

The rules only require for us to produce legal combinations for Force Orgs

So I can buy 5 chain fists for one model? Such as the Cataphractii Terminator Squad on the next page?

No sequence of steps is going to produce that result.

RAI

If there is no rule and just options you cannot make a RAW argument.

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Unfortunatwh I don't have the rules. I understand the gist of the argument, I'm just confused as to how buying wargear in order isn't possible, (armour before weapon) and the other way it is.

If there is a restriction on wargear due to other factors then it has to go both ways.

The actual model has permission to take Terminator Weapons, so once the model actually has a Terminator Weapon there is no problem.

However, in order to swap the model's power sword for a chainfist for example the model must be in default state (which is terminator armour)

So order becomes important in order to reach at desired build.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Wait, but if it was legal for him to have cataphractii armour and a chainfiat the order won't matter though? so he is allowed to take terminator weapons. Cool. I get this. He's allowed to take cataphractii armour. I get this.

But if he swaps to cataphractii armour first he can't take a chainfist? Is this true? Because cataphractii armour disallows chainfists?

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

So I buy the armour, and then the chainfist? Yes? So that whole procedure you had before wasn't necessary. This is a much easier way if arguing your point dude. No need for that process you had before? Unless I'm missing something? If there is an exclusion one way won't that mean the other way also has an exclusion?

Now I'm really confused

The wargear entry for the fist requires termi armour.. col argues you buy it first then change armour.. I say well by that logic I can buy a bile then termi armour

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Unfortunatwh I don't have the rules. I understand the gist of the argument, I'm just confused as to how buying wargear in order isn't possible, (armour before weapon) and the other way it is.

If there is a restriction on wargear due to other factors then it has to go both ways.

The actual model has permission to take Terminator Weapons, so once the model actually has a Terminator Weapon there is no problem.

However, in order to swap the model's power sword for a chainfist for example the model must be in default state (which is terminator armour)

So order becomes important in order to reach at desired build.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

You do not get to swap armor, you already chose your armor.

 Klowny wrote:


Wait, but if it was legal for him to have cataphractii armour and a chainfiat the order won't matter though? so he is allowed to take terminator weapons. Cool. I get this. He's allowed to take cataphractii armour. I get this.

But if he swaps to cataphractii armour first he can't take a chainfist? Is this true? Because cataphractii armour disallows chainfists?

Cataphractii armour does not disallow chainfists.

The Terminator Captain needs to be in default state (in terminator armour) to replace his power sword for a chain fist.


1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You do not get to swap armor, you already chose your armor.

Nope. No choice of armour is made until step 2.



1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:


The wargear entry for the fist requires termi armour.. col argues you buy it first then change armour.. I say well by that logic I can buy a bile then termi armour

That won't produce a legal build.

The key difference to note here is that the Terminator Captain himself "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"

Wrong.

The option to replace your powersword with a chainfist is the THIRD option on the data sheet. Not the first.