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I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

Ceann wrote:
I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

Do you have a rules quote to back up your method?

If not, then the rules don't care as long as you produce a legal build at the end of it all.

Ceann wrote:
No, because Terminator Weapons states, "a model wearing terminator armor may"

That is also true... good point

As he is not in termi armour he once again cannot have a termi weapon...


It just keeps going

Col's order of purchase argument doesn't work, because like I said if I buy the bike then the armour it is just as legal

In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

and here I was thinking this was over..


Now this comes down to a RAI of does his entry of being able to access the item wargear naturally trump the armour requirement with Sup>codex, but you also have to take note the cap is standard equip is termi armour,

Or does in the end the Special armour count as termi armour, and he cant ride the bike or do sick jumps

Therefore your method is wrong, you are skipping ahead to switch to a chainfist and then backing up. The decision has already been made to keep terminator armor, you cannot change your mind after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

Do you have a rules quote to back up your method?

If not, then the rules don't care as long as you produce a legal build at the end of it all.

No, I have the Tenets to back up my version of this.

In english we read from top to bottom, if we are not reading the Codex in english or we can decide to change the order in which we interpert the words then we would be free to arrange the words on the data sheet in any manner we wished. The rules are read from top to bottom, left to right.

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

All of the unit options have add models first, because you cannot add gear to models to haven't already purchased. Precedence shows us that the options are read from top to bottom.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

'The model wearing the termi armour' Codex: Spacemarine

So he can have his fist, but only while wearing termi armour

Ceann wrote:


No, I have the Tenets to back up my version of this.

In english we read from top to bottom, if we are not reading the Codex in english or we can decide to change the order in which we interpert the words then we would be free to arrange the words on the data sheet in any manner we wished. The rules are read from top to bottom, left to right.

Rules quote?

No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

col_impact wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

This is a successful RAW argument.

So far no one has pointed to anything illegal in the following . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

I actually did, emboldened in red, how you have no RAW argument and how along almost every step of the way you made RAI assumptions with no basis to do so. You chose to regurgitate the EXACT same thing, adding nothing, rebutting nothing, and hence you continue to have no RAW argument. But that is your style and I supposed you must be related to the poster in my sig.

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

'The model wearing the termi armour' Codex: Spacemarine

So he can have his fist, but only while wearing termi armour

Read the whole rule you are quoting. That rule is just about swapping power swords for termi weapons.

The actual permission to take an item from the Terminator Weapons list is on the Terminator Captain datasheet.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


No, I have the Tenets to back up my version of this.

In english we read from top to bottom, if we are not reading the Codex in english or we can decide to change the order in which we interpert the words then we would be free to arrange the words on the data sheet in any manner we wished. The rules are read from top to bottom, left to right.

Rules quote?

We don't do rules quotes friend remember?
You called it disruptive when I asked for them earlier.
You need to prove me wrong that we do not read the rules from top to bottom.
Please proceed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So we can't take a bike then right?

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

Yes but if you upgrade the armour he is not wearing Terminator armour.

So if he can still take the fist, a regular captain can buy then bike then the termiarmour for the same result


As he wasn't wearing the termi armour when he acquired the bike

In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

So you are asserting that we do not read the rules, top to bottom, correct?

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

Yes but if you upgrade the armour he is not wearing Terminator armour.

So if he can still take the fist, a regular captain can buy then bike then the termiarmour for the same result


As he wasn't wearing the termi armour when he acquired the bike

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

col_impact wrote:

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

only if you look at half of the rules involved, once you factor in the weargear rule from Codex Spacemarine then the Termiarmour is required for the fist

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

Yes but if you upgrade the armour he is not wearing Terminator armour.

So if he can still take the fist, a regular captain can buy then bike then the termiarmour for the same result


As he wasn't wearing the termi armour when he acquired the bike

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

So he can't have the bike?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

So you are asserting that we do not read the rules, top to bottom, correct?

I am asserting there are no rules for how exactly we purchase items.

The rules only require for us to produce legal combinations for Force Orgs

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

Hey col, quick question. Since he has permission to take a chainfist irrespective of the armour he is wearing, why did you make that convoluted procedure of buying the chainfist before equipping the Cataphractii armour?

You spent pages upon pages asking people to come up with a reason as to why your stepped process was wrong, and completely invalidated it here?

If he has permission to take it, then the order in which he takes the wargear shouldn't matter?

So he can

Buy the cataphractii armour, then buy the chainfist yes?

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

RAI in your own words. RAW does not allow you to do things "how we want", it tells us how to do them, through permission in the rules. You have just killed your argument by your own hand.

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

only if you look at half of the rules involved, once you factor in the weargear rule from Codex Spacemarine then the Termiarmour is required for the fist

Revisit the process below. Point out where anything illegal happens.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

 Brother Ramses wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

RAI in your own words. RAW does not allow you to do things "how we want", it tells us how to do them, through permission in the rules. You have just killed your argument by your own hand.

You are confusing RAI with laissez faire.

There are no rules defining how to purchase so to satisfy RAW we only need to produce legal combinations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

Hey col, quick question. Since he has permission to take a chainfist irrespective of the armour he is wearing, why did you make that convoluted procedure of buying the chainfist before equipping the Cataphractii armour?

You spent pages upon pages asking people to come up with a reason as to why your stepped process was wrong, and completely invalidated it here?

If he has permission to take it, then the order in which he takes the wargear shouldn't matter?

So he can

Buy the cataphractii armour, then buy the chainfist yes?

He needs terminator armour in order to replace his power sword for a chain fist.

He may take Terminator Weapons (e.g. a chainfist) if he is in Cataphractii armour.

Wargear:
Chainfist
Cataphractii
Bike

This is not a legal combination. The chainfist is present without the required terminator armor being worn.
If the terminator armor was worn a bike may not a purchased.

Chainfist requires terminator armor to be worn to take.
Bike cannot be taken with terminator armor.

This is the "final list" we have submitted. It obviously has a problem.

Ceann wrote:
Wargear:
Chainfist
Cataphractii
Bike

This is not a legal combination. The chainfist is present without the required terminator armor being worn.
If the terminator armor was worn a bike is not a purchase.

Incorrect. It is a legal combination.

The Terminator Captain model has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour.

A Terminator Captain in Cataphractii armour can purchase a bike.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Ceann wrote:
I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

The problem with this excellent point is that Col actually does not argue from a RAW perspective, but rather a RAI perspective and just cloaks it with a RAW veneer. So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Wargear:
Chainfist
Cataphractii
Bike

This is not a legal combination. The chainfist is present without the required terminator armor being worn.
If the terminator armor was worn a bike is not a purchase.

Incorrect. It is a legal combination.

The Terminator Captain model has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour.

A Terminator Captain in Cataphractii armour can purchase a bike.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

You do not have a legal combination at the end.
The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.
If Terminator Armor is worn you cannot take a bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)




Rules quote?

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)