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2017/04/11 20:43:18
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataprachtii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
2017/04/11 20:52:10
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The interesting thing is that history isn't exactly against the rules.
To the matter at hand . . . .
I have outlined an entirely legal following of the rules. Feel free to cite any rule that forbids me from doing so.
History is not recorded, we only get the end result of choices, there is no history existing in the final armylist:
BRB, pg. 117, The Force Roster:
"Write down the details of the models that make up your army... This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game."
There is no mention of history here, you just need to have Force Roster which follows all the relevant rules.
What you have done is to refuse to acknowledge arguments against your claims.
I am afraid my friend that the burden of proof on your "entirely legal following of the rules" is on you.
2017/04/11 20:56:21
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: we only get the end result of choices, there is no history existing in the final armylist:
The end result is entirely legal. No history is required. The model has permission to take Terminator Weapons. You are confusing the replacing which was legally completed with the permission to have which the model always has.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:01:49
2017/04/11 21:02:32
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: we only get the end result of choices, there is no history existing in the final armylist:
The end result is entirely legal. No history is required.
That's a complete and utter falsehood.
"All of you are relying on a notion of history to hand-wave away the direct conflict between the specific permission and the general restriction. This is not the first time I have pointed out the counter argument's reliance on history. A direct conflict exists if any choice violates the specific permission. "
As opposed to what you are doing, relying on a notion of history to hand-wave being able to buy some things. You are using history because you have to remember the order in which you did the things to come to the final configuration of the model. Taking it without history, the character is completely illegal because it has terminator weapons but no terminator armor, just the same way you don't get a captain wearing terminator armor riding a bike because he bought the bike before swapping out his armor. If the end result isn't legal, you don't get to do it.
But, since you insist no history is required, prove it. You are not allowed to rely on the order of purchasing things, because that is history. Back up your statement and prove how it can be done without having to remember the order in which things were done (which is history).
EDIT: I see you added to your post. Just jettison everything in your spoiler to prove the point, because having to know the order of things is having to know the history of things. You insist we don't need to know the history. Prove it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:04:32
2017/04/11 21:03:56
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
doctortom wrote: You are not allowed to rely on the order of purchasing things, because that is history.
Do you have rules quote on this statement?
I am just following rules.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
Doctortom: What rule did I break? Page and paragraph please!
2017/04/11 21:09:28
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
The Roster you provide is convoluted, let me tidy it up to follow the:
BRB, pg. 117, The Force Roster:
"Write down the details of the models that make up your army... This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game."
Terminator Captain
Cataprachtii Terminator Armour
Chainfist/Power Fist (you switched it 2nd time midway with no mention, but lets not worry about that!)
Bike
1) Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is legal choice
2) Bike is legal choice because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
3)Chainfist/power fist choice is Illegal. See the justification and rule entry below:
In Codex Space Marines, Space Marines Wargear List, Terminator Weapons [list] entry:
"A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Power fist X pts, -Chainfist X pts."
A model, as recorded in Force Roster I kindly provided for you, is not wearing a Terminator armour so therefore cannot replace his power weapon with Power fist or Chainfist. This is because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator armour by definition.
You failed to record your models Force Roster entry in clear manner and you failed to follow the rule set in Terminator Weapons [list] entry. Therefore you ended up with illegal choices for you models.
2017/04/11 21:10:17
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: No because when you submit the list, the powerfist is found to be on a model not wearing terminator armor. The list is invalid.
You keep inventing words. None of the words you are using appear in a codex.
The Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. The list is completely valid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghorgul wrote: you ended up with illegal choices for you models.
Incorrect. The Terminator Captain model may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.
The end result is 100% legal. You are confusing a choice that was made with the end result. The Force Roster only cares about whether the end result is legal.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:15:27
2017/04/11 21:18:18
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
So what other rules for terminator armor do you choose to keep from the Captain previously in terminator armor and now in Cataphracti armor? I ask because your RAI of timing events supports you retaining any all the rules of the previously held terminator armor even after the captain has switched to Cataphracti armor, you are just choosing to nitpick this one to support you illegal RAI build.
2017/04/11 21:22:53
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: Precedence and verbatim rules quotes, the two things col inventor ignores the most.
The burden is on you to point out the rule that I break.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
2017/04/11 21:25:59
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: No because when you submit the list, the powerfist is found to be on a model not wearing terminator armor. The list is invalid.
You keep inventing words. None of the words you are using appear in a codex.
The Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. The list is completely valid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghorgul wrote: you ended up with illegal choices for you models.
Incorrect. The Terminator Captain model may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.
The end result is 100% legal. You are confusing a choice that was made with the end result. The Force Roster only cares about whether the end result is legal.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
He doesn't have permission to have terminator weapons if he doesn't have terminator armor.
Now, let's get get back to a statement you made, where you said there's no history involved. Posting things in steps IS a history, because you have to have the history of what order things are in. Since you assert that no history is required, prove how you can have the items without just copying and pasting the steps you listed above, since that is history. You don't just get to ignore that challenge - you made a statement, now back it up.
As Ceann has said, state your precendence that allows you to purchase in this order. GW has had FAQs indicating that they do now subscribe to this practice in general for being able to skirt prohibitions. I gave you a counter example of a Space Marine captain in terminator armor on a bike because he had the bike before the terminator armor. Prove how, if what you are doing is legal, it isn't likewise legal for him to purchase the bike before trading in armor.
2017/04/11 21:29:11
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Incorrect. The Terminator Captain model may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.
"The Terminator Captain model may take items from the Terminator Weapons list" rule in Army List Entry is not under dispute. We all agree that the Terminator Captain may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.
The rule under dispute is if he can take for example a Power fist from the list while he is wearing a Cataprachtii Terminator Armour. The rule was quoted just prior to this: "A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Power fist X pts"
You claim this rule is overriden. That claim is incorrect. Provide rule entry which allows the overriding, you have been asked to do this several times already.
You are confusing a choice that was made with the end result. The Force Roster only cares about whether the end result is legal.
I do not understand what you mean by that. Recorded Force Roster needs to be legal and that means to follow all the relevant rules. You have been shown that in your example you have not followed all the relevant rules.
2017/04/11 21:30:05
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You are confusing a choice that was made with the end result. The Force Roster only cares about whether the end result is legal.
I do not understand what you mean by that. Recorded Force Roster needs to be legal and that means to follow all the relevant rules. You have been shown that in your example you have not followed all the relevant rules.
It's an entirely legal configuration. The Terminator Captain can take items from the Terminator Weapons list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: Quit dodging. Provide the proof for your statement that you you can do a legal build without knowing history.
You've got it backwards. I laid out a completely legal process. You haven't shown anything to be illegal.
You mention a FAQ. You should post it. Otherwise there are no rules against what I am doing.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:43:24
2017/04/11 21:36:30
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: Precedence and verbatim rules quotes, the two things col inventor ignores the most.
The burden is on you to point out the rule that I break.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
You have been pointed out the rules you break. Then you were asked to provide rule quotes which support you disregarding restrictions contained within the Terminator Weapons [list]. You have several times failed to produce relevant quotes, you keep on posting again the Army List Entry rule giving Terminator Captain access to Terminator Weapons [list] "may take items from Terminator Weapons". This rule does override any restrictions in the rule Terminator Weapons [list].
Please provide a rule quote which justifies overriding the restriction set in Terminator Weapons [list].
2017/04/11 21:39:16
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: You have been pointed out the rules you break.
Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:43:53
2017/04/11 21:44:12
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
As all claims in support of Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour being able to choose options within Terminator Weapons list have been discredited and arguments against the claims stand unchallenged, even outright ignored, we can conclude that:
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour can have a bike or jump pack.
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour has access to Terminator Weapons, but cannot make any legal choices from the said list.
2017/04/11 21:45:56
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: As all claims in support of Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour being able to choose options within Terminator Weapons list have been discredited and arguments against the claims stand unchallenged, even outright ignored, we can conclude that:
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour can have a bike or jump pack.
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour has access to Terminator Weapons, but cannot make any legal choices from the said list.
Quite dodging.
Point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Unless you can point out rules that I break, I am doing something perfectly legitimate and legal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.
Why? The process I outline is thoroughly legal and end results in a 100% legal combination.
Meanwhile, you mention FAQs but fail to deliver as far as posting them.
You have to show a rule being broken here.
Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:49:53
2017/04/11 21:51:21
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Except we don't conclude that. He concludes he can to both.
The DATA SHEET for this model says see codex space marines beside his terminator armor in the war gear section. His item selections state explicitly, see codex space marines.
Codex Space marines dictates you must wear terminator armor to take items from terminator weapons.
If you are not wearing terminator armor you cannot take terminator weapons. You assert there is some buying order, there is no rule that states you can do this, so by default you cannot do this.
It breaks on step 2 when you take off terminator armor. He may take a chainfist IF he is wearing terminator armor, he doesn't get to keep it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:53:15
2017/04/11 21:54:47
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
If you are not wearing terminator armor you cannot take terminator weapons. You assert there is some buying order, there is no rule that states you can do this, so by default you cannot do this.
It breaks on step 2 when you take off terminator armor. He may take a chainfist IF he is wearing terminator armor, he doesn't get to keep it.
Incorrect. The Terminator Captain model in the Angel of Death supplement "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]" so he gets to keep it.
Spoiler:
OPTIONS:
may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 21:58:54
2017/04/11 21:55:23
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The section you are talking about in the data sheet is a section for OPTIONS of wargear. Nothing in there is a rule, none of it is a rule. Rules are in the BRB or labeled as special rules, he has no special rule called quartermaster switcheroo, or pull a fast one.
2017/04/11 21:57:45
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: The section you are talking about in the data sheet is a section for OPTIONS of wargear. Nothing in there is a rule, none of it is a rule. Rules are in the BRB or labeled as special rules, he has no special rule called quartermaster switcheroo, or pull a fast one.
Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
2017/04/11 21:58:40
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Please look at the diagram and tell me where it states wargear options are rules? It doesn't because they are not rules, they have no legal grounds as rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The section you are quoting from the supplement. "May take items from" that is listed at the end of data sheet break down as wargear options, these are not rules, their value is 0. The space marine codex has the wargear and the rules for that wargear require you to WEAR terminator armor. Not previously worn, or glanced at it in the shop keeps window. Wargear options on a data sheet are not rules so any text you quote from there is squashed by space marines codex.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/11 22:02:14
2017/04/11 22:01:19
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataprachtii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.
To direct you back to the task at hand . . .
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.
If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.
The Roster you provide is convoluted, let me tidy it up to follow the:
BRB, pg. 117, The Force Roster:
"Write down the details of the models that make up your army... This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game."
Terminator Captain
Cataprachtii Terminator Armour
Chainfist/Power Fist (you switched it 2nd time midway with no mention, but lets not worry about that!)
Bike
1) Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is legal choice
2) Bike is legal choice because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
3)Chainfist/power fist choice is Illegal. See the justification and rule entry below:
In Codex Space Marines, Space Marines Wargear List, Terminator Weapons
entry:
"A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Power fist X pts, -Chainfist X pts."
A model, as recorded in Force Roster I kindly provided for you, is not wearing a Terminator armour so therefore cannot replace his power weapon with Power fist or Chainfist. This is because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator armour by definition.
You failed to record your models Force Roster entry in clear manner and you failed to follow the rule set in Terminator Weapons [list] entry. Therefore you ended up with illegal choices for you models.
Ghorgul wrote: As all claims in support of Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour being able to choose options within Terminator Weapons list have been discredited and arguments against the claims stand unchallenged, even outright ignored, we can conclude that:
[list]Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour can have a bike or jump pack.
Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour has access to Terminator Weapons, but cannot make any legal choices from the said list.
Quite dodging.
Point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Unless you can point out rules that I break, I am doing something perfectly legitimate and legal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.
Why? The process I outline is thoroughly legal and end results in a 100% legal combination.
Meanwhile, you mention FAQs but fail to deliver as far as posting them.
You have to show a rule being broken here.
Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Your argument has been discredited, by rule quotes in very clear manner. You are ignoring arguments and dodging. You are acting in very disruptive manner. You do not provide rule quotes in support of your claims, yet you demand others to provide rule quotes. When they are provided you ignore them completely and continue repeating your discredited claims.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 22:06:46
2017/04/11 22:04:28
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ceann wrote: Please look at the diagram and tell me where it states wargear options are rules? It doesn't because they are not rules, they have no legal grounds as rules.
From the Datasheets page of Codex: Space Marines:
"Each Space Marines unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000."
From the BRB:
"Army List Entries The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop publications, such as codexes, codex supplements and dataslates.
Regardless of where this information is found, it is known as an Army List Entry. Each Army List Entry describes a unit of Citadel miniatures and includes everything you will need to know in order to use that unit in a game
of Warhammer 40,000.
In some older codexes, the information for a single unit’s Army List Entry is spread out amongst different sections of the book. Taken together they describe, and are treated for all rules purposes as, a single Army List Entry. When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title. For example, all units in Codex: Space Marines belong to the Space Marines Faction, whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction."
Sorry, they are rules as far as I can tell. And if they weren't rules, they would have no power to do anything to the game. Every Captain would be stuck without Wargear and no rules to even get Terminator Armour in the first place.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
