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These Talonmaster are quite a deal! Re-roll 1s to wound AND remove cover?

I won't even miss my Tau

LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!

I sposse Sammael will get a fixed WT

Dark Angels are way more shooty than choppy; Deathwing Knights makes most of DA melee power, while there are some good melee characters (Sammael, Interrogator-Chaplain). With Grim Resolve, it certainly makes one wonder if not going ranged-focused with DA would be a good move...

DA has 3 big things going for them: Greenwing (normal marines, pretty static normally or going in transports for speed), Ravenwing (bikes and planes, mobile is their game!) and Deathwing (deep strike and land raiders). So you can focus on RAvenwing to get a more mobile army, Greenwing to get gunlines or Deathwing to be precise on your killing. I'd wager having at least 2 of those ways are the best (Ravenwing + Deathwing is pretty popular).

Their special gimmick is having more plasma than any other army in the game (well, perhaps Tau can rival them with a heavy-suit list). Also, having the coolest marine models!
Models to disregard... I think everything is useable, but Asmodai and normal Terminators are generally not really used.

DA, for now, can't even use Stormravens, so no big deal. Nephelim Jetfighter and Dark Talon, DA's exclusive fliers, are somewhat good, but you don't really need them.

Used the Company Champions today. Wasn't really amazed.

3 charged a 4-man Deathwatch Terminator unit (Sarge with TH/SS, 3 with Assault Cannons and another one was barebones). One died to Overwatch (highly unusual, I know) and the other 2 killed 1 Termie. The Termie unit cleaned the ground with them.

Later, other 2 charged a Captain with just a Chainsword and a 4++. NEITHER managed to land a single wound, while the Captain dealt 2W to one of them. Next round, the Captain left the battle while those Champions endured some shooting to 1W left each. They charged the Captain AGAIN and... failed miserably to deal one simple wound. The Captain killed them.

My tip is to not use them vs anything with a reasonable invulnerable save

On Company Champions: I really hope they don't limit their numbers. I'd like to see Blade of Caliban costing 5p or something like that.
They can't get a Jump Pack, both Stormraven and Land Raider can be destroyed and Drop Pods put them 9" away. A smart player can really keep them away from you. No reason to limit their number, I'd say.

Also, I don't think they'll fix the Combat Shield thing, as SM has the same situation and their codex already got a FAQ... which didn't even touch Company Champions.

Can normal Chaplains take Terminator armour? Can't find that option in the codex

Sadly they didn't change Deathwing Assault point cost... used it today, wasn't really amazed by it.

Also, Ravenwing Attack Squad Sergeant is still missing the option to get a combi-weapon

But was that GT using the codex or the index for DA?

Today I saw a 'bubble' DA style that might interest you, guys:

- Darkshroud
- 3 Venerable Dreads with Missile Launcher and Twin Lascannons
- 1 Dreadnought with Twin Autocannon and Missile Launcher
- 2 Tactical Squads, one with Lascannon and the other with Missile Launcher
- Scout Squad with Missile Launcher
- Master
- Lieutenant
- Techmarine

They all stood close to each other, firing at the enemy and barely moving. Although the Darkshroud died in one Shooting phase, the rest dealt with the table. Plasma Inceptors and some Scions helped later.

It's not a gamestyle I'm keen on playing, but it worked

 Grimgold wrote:
We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.

But if you don't want to use Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors become the best target for WotDA. Also, they can fire at everything in the game instead of having to walk or care about terrain. All you need is a Jump Master to give them re-roll 1s.

So, aside the Dark Talon and Fire Raptor point fix, nothing else changed for us? I don't see a Blood Angels specific FAQ as well...

Damn you, GW...

DT has Strafing Run. If the target unit doesn't sport the FLY rule, DT has +1 to hit. Hurricane Bolter is a Rapid Fire weapon, so DT's BS 3+ gets a +1 to hit vs infantry (except those with fly), war walkers and the monsters (again, not those with fly).

Not all Eldar armies are Alaitoc FLY-spam stuff

Azuza001 wrote:
I just noticed our tactical srgs have more flexibility in their weapons selection, notably we can equip a tactical srg with 2 storm bolters or 2 combi weapons. Personally I am loving that idea, a 5 man tactical with the srg having 2 storm bolters puts out 8 shots at 24" or 16 at 12", all for 68 pts. That's crazy effective for the points. I am thinking of running 3 of these "dakka" squads in a land raider crusader because I don't want to put anything expensive in there and if they don't get far they at least get somewhere. Or even putting 2 squads like that in a rhino with 2 storm bolters, that's 74 pts for the rhino and 136 for the men for a ton of firepower. Yeah, they are bolters, but everyone has to fail some wounds at some point.

They can't take 2 Storm Bolters.

SERGEANT EQUIPMENT
Up to two weapons can be chosen from the following list:
-snip-

One weapon can be chosen from the following list:
-snip-
Storm Bolter

They can pick a Storm Bolter only once. If you want a S4 font of dakka, either go Aggressors or Company Veterans with Storm Bolters (the entire squad can take it)

 TedNugent wrote:
Ergo you could replace up to one weapon with the storm bolter but still be left with one weapon from the first list (chainsword, bolt pistol, etc). I think this is both RAW and RAI. Now, if the storm bolter had been included in the first list....

Double-wielding John Woo style!

 axisofentropy wrote:
Aggressors with Azrael are bonkers good, probably best in faction.

I noticed the plasma Deredeo on this thread's first page but I didn't think it was all that great. Maybe Azrael makes it great?

I've been creating an excel file comparing the anti-tank (and later the anti-infantry) options we have access to. For now I've done Deimos Predator, Relic Contemptor, Deredeo, Sicarans (all s7+ variants) and the Tarantula Sentry Gun.
Assuming optimal distance, still dreadnoughts, overcharging plasma and WotDA stratagem, the Hellfire Cannonade Deredeo is simply better than all of the others against T7 3+ (a bit less than 20 points per damage inflicted). The closest, inside the same list, is the Relic Contemptor with 2 Heavy Plasma Cannon and a Cyclone Missile Launcher - but even then it's almost 10 points per damage worse.

The plasma Deredeo is the best option (again, among that list) against T5 4+/5++ (Dark Eldar), but only 4 points per damage more than a Relic Contemptor with 2 twin Autocannons + CML.
It would be the best one vs T6 4+ (Necrons), but the Quantum Shielding makes it less valuable. The same AC Relic Contemptor is just a bit worse and more efficient (as the Necrons player would need to roll 1s instead of 3s or less).
Again, the plasma Deredeo wins - this time, vs T7 2+/5++ (Riptide). Didn't factor in 3++ because it would be just worse, but still better than the other options.
It's also the best option vs T8 3+ and 2+.

2 conclusions this far:
- WotDA is really a good stratagem.
- Plasma Deredeo is a really good anti-tank option. Too bad it's only 24".

I think I'll finish the AT part this weekend and I'll post the results here.

 zedsdead wrote:
have you factored in the Chap Dread with Plasma cannon into this ?

No, because it's not a prime ranged AT source. But I'll put it in there, alongside the Multi-Melta and Twin Lascannon options.
I'm almost finished with the AT part (I think I'll finish it before noon, GMT 0 time).

I'm halfway through the file. Give me more hours and I'll deliver it.

 zedsdead wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
have you factored in the Chap Dread with Plasma cannon into this ?

No, because it's not a prime ranged AT source. But I'll put it in there, alongside the Multi-Melta and Twin Lascannon options.
I'm almost finished with the AT part (I think I'll finish it before noon, GMT 0 time).

im very interested to see the outcome.

Well, From T5 4+ to T6 3+/5++, the Chaplain Dread isn't in a very good position... The Plasma Cannon one is certainly less worse than the Lascannon and Multi-Melta ones, but it is still lacklustre. Again, I'm not counting on the melee capacity.

bananathug wrote:
Do me a favor and run the numbers against plasma inceptors? Their wounds inflicted per point overcharged with WftDA is the highest on my list for Marines and would love to be sure that I'm not over-looking anything.

They reliably earn their points+ back in one round of shooting (usually all they get) and are good at surgically removing the biggest enemy threat, in my experience. I prefer two groups of 4 but with their crazy PL I end up running one 5 and one 3 most of the time.

Plasma Inceptors and Rapid Fire Hellblasters are showing quite the good numbers in my calculations. Even Assault Hellblasters aren't that bad against T5 and T6 stuff (both Hellblaster flavours are better than the Heavy one - considering everyone still)

Here it is! The anti-tank spreadsheet and the PDF with the report. Also, spoilers!

Most cost-effective units:

Tier 1: Plasma Inceptors, Plasmagun Veterans, Rapid Fire Hellblasters

Tier 2: Plasma Deredeo, Quad Rapier, Plasma Devastators, Assault Hellblasters, Black Knights, LC+PG Razorback, Meltagun Veterans, Plasma Cannon Veteran

Tier 3: HPC+CML Relic Contemptor, LC/AC/MM/HPC+CML Contemptor-Mortis, Laser Rapier, CMLan/SCA Leviathan, HPC+ML* (Venerable) Dread, MM Devastators, Heavy Hellblasters, MM Land Speeder, Land Speeder Vengeance

Disclaimer: Dark Talon didn't show up as any kind of promising unit, but as we all know reality is different. Anyway, this is for anti-tank, while Dark Talons are known for mowing down infantry. Next month it'll certainly shine in my calculations

* Just noticed I wrote 'CML' instead of 'ML'. Please consider it as 'ML'.

 zedsdead wrote:

This is actually very interesting to me. I have moved on from the standard HB and moved to the Assault version. I would like to see the numbers.

I run them with a bunch of agressors. Im constantly moving them and sometimes advancing alll the units.

Are you giving a stat on "advancing" Hellblasters ?

No, because I'm lazy after doing this for the entire weekend.
I'm posting the spreadsheet as well, so all you have to do is remove the '+0,17' from each 'Tx Y++' columns regarding said units to see the numbers and compare with the PDF for each bracket.
I'd guess it wouldn't make them any much different, as they're already some of the best choices for DA.

---
Ah, as anything GW-related, a errata must follow the main product.
- Report, page 1, point 2: Redemptor Dreadnought's underarm Gatling weapon WAS factored in my calculations.
- Report, page 1, point 9: instead of 'damage inflicted', read 'weapon damage'. 'Damage inflicted' is the result of the formulae. PPD is the point cost of the unit divided by the damaged inflicted.

London GT results are in!
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/756135.page#9986322

6th place has a soup army with some RW, but no other DA list made to top 10. :(

Got the site with general results: https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/xk7q97gb
Lists here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QuVR2KdfKO08bBLYw9vobghM_xwhejofmtyXQ7LgQU8/edit

The best 'main' Da list only made up to 52nd place... others are at 133rd, 251st, 282nd, 291st, 298th, 326th and 346th.

Guys, I've updated the spreadsheet and the report. It shall provide more accurate results!
It is still limited to anti-tank (both ranged and melee), but next month I'll do anti-infantry.

 dan2026 wrote:
Looking at the results of your comprehensive survey, it looks lie Assault Hellblasters actually better at fighting T8+ tanks such as the Leman Russ that the Heavy Hellblasters.

I was sort of considering Heavy Hellblaster do to the longer range and the S9 guns. But maybe not.

Then there is the rapid fire variant. But you have to get in pretty damn close to get your two shots.
I'm worried that in an actual game, are the closer range varients really going to be able to get close enough to do work without being blasted off the table?

Just take note that this comparison is unit-by-unit basis. Azrael really helps RF Hellblasters do their job - and they do it better than either different Hellblaster option.
I'd say Plasma Devastators simply surpass Heavy Hellblasters to the point the latter aren't really in the same league

 dan2026 wrote:

So for taking on T8 targets like Leman Russes what would you recommend?
Devastators?

RF Hellblasters, Plasma Veterans, Plasma Inceptors and Plasma Devastators are the most cost-effective units to do that (all overcharging and with WotdA).
But a Leviathan Dread with 2x Cyclonic Melta Lance will kill a Leman Russ per turn, in average (13.60 damage inflicted if standing still*, 11.60 if moved). Standing still, overcharging and using WotDA RF Hellblasters at half-range will more or less kill one too (11.76 damage inflicted), followed by Inceptors (same conditions: 11.71 damage inflicted). Company Veterans and Plasma Devastators, folloing the same conditions, won't kill one Leman Russ in average (less than 10 damage caused)

*standing still can be exchanged for a nearby Master/Azrael

zedsdead wrote:And this here is the rub. I am finding that S7 hellblasters are a bit overkill in so many instances. i find my HBs shooting at T4-6 stuff so much more often. Im still on the fence but i am finding the Assault HBs version a bit more versitile. I almost never get outranged and im getting 2 shots out of them. With Azzy they are great. Sure the RFHBs are awsome but by then im in such close range im getting shot or charged. Its still a tough one but im liking my Assault HBs more and more.

Well, Assault Hellblasters aren't that bad vs T8 3+ (22,50 PPD; 7.76 damage inflicted) and if they're working for you, kudos to that!

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
That's a cool analysis! Looks like maybe Veterans should be in every list, at least with plasma. I wonder how they'll fare in the anti-infantry calculations?

I would like to point out that I asked about this idea months ago and promptly got shot down that they were too expensive! Oh, irony.

As ZergSmasher said: they're very effective for their points, but they're flimsy. They need a transport do to their job, while Hellblasters have a bit more survivability and Devastators can plink away from a safe distance.

1. Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment
2. Imperial Knight Gallant
3. Give it <Questor Mechanicus> allegiance (better Stratagems, I'd say)
4. Make it a Freeblade
a. Quality: Peerless Warrior
b. Burdens: Exiled in Shame and Obsessed with Vengeance
5. Spend 1CP on the Stratagem to make it a Character and give it the +1A Warlord Trait
6. Give it the 5++ in melee relic
7. Give extra weapons at will

Now you have a 12" moving, WS 2+ T8 24W 6A with tremendous power. You have a 50% chance to get +1 WS (which means it'll still fight at WS2+ for 2 brackets instead of 1) and 33% chance of getting +2" move.
It's simply more efficient than any other melee unit at our disposal vs T5+. I have yet to calculate vs T4-, though.

To take Terryn or any other House Tradition, you'll need an entire 3-Questor/Dominus Super-heavy Detachment. By that time you're already playing an IK list, not DA...

SpaceJS wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility

Edit: nice techy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?

The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.

What are people's thoughts?

As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?

For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?

It's not each turn, it's each phase per turn

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

Not so much... if you're willing to overcharge and spend WotDA, the HPC+ML is a better build, in average. Heck, even the 2x Twin AC is a bit better in average as well. The Twin LC Mortis has more or less the same performance.

But, if I'd use any kind of Dreadnought for AT purposes, I'd look no further than Contemptor Mortis or the Leviathan. Both are more efficient than the normal dreads

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

Yeah, but I feel like there's always going to be a better WotDA candidate that particular phase in a DA army. You don't want to burn that every turn for one PC.

Definitely will think about the Contemptor Mortis or Leviathan, but I do think the twin LC/ML Ven Dread is the best non-FW option for ranged AT.

(Forgot about the plasma Deredeo - it's really good)

non-FW Dreads... yeah, I'd say you're right. Plasma Redemptor is close to its performance also, but falls short after losing some Wounds

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:
the mortis contemptor is 206 points, it also moves at 9", you have as many las shots as a predator as well.

Fair enough. You're getting a lot there for 41 more points.

it also looks way better also for 235 points you have a relic contemptor dread which looks even better, more wounds and slower degradation

and has the same 6++ from the GW ven dread.

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought (Melta Lance or Storm Canons), Hellblasters, Inceptors and Veterans with plasma are your best bet vs an Imperial Knight.

Melee-wise, a Leviathan, Relic Contemptor, DW Knights or, well, another Imperial Knight, also works