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So, I came up with another radical idea of how to combine Knights with our boys in green. Dreadnought spam! Basically, run a House Raven Castellan, and then put in as many Dreads as you can cram in. Shooty ones can stand still and thus benefit from Grim Resolve, whereas some can move up the board with their fists and punch stuff. I'm not sure it's competitive or anything, but it sure would be fun to see all those angry washing machines on the table. Probably want a Techmarine or two as HQ's so they can fix the Dreads, plus a Master to reroll 1's to hit on the moving ones. Better yet, to keep with the theme, take a Chaplain Dread!

I agree dreadnoughts are fun but why not ally with ad mech to deliver troops, rep the knight and bring techmarine on a bike to rep the dreadnoughts.

Shameless plug: https://imgur.com/a/BTec5PV



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question, have any of you ever used a bastion. we are doing a league locally and the missions do not really benefit from a mobile army so I was thinking of putting ten hellblasters in a bastion with heavy incinerators.

What do you guys think?

I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility

Edit: nice techy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?

The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.

What are people's thoughts?

 Brother Payne wrote:
I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility

Edit: nice techy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?

The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.

What are people's thoughts?

As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?

For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?

SpaceJS wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility

Edit: nice techy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?

The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.

What are people's thoughts?

As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?

For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?

It's not each turn, it's each phase per turn

 Vector Strike wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility

Edit: nice techy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?

The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.

What are people's thoughts?

As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?

For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?

It's not each turn, it's each phase per turn

His point still stands though - you'd only be able to use WotDA on one of the Devs squads. Plas Devs are more efficient than hvy Hellblasters on a point for point basis, but as stated they suffer from only having 4 plas weapons and so aren't great targets for WotDA - hence why I suggested taking a separate unit for WotDA.

I always try to run two eligible units for WotDA, so in this case I would take either plas Inceptors or regular Hellblasters and use WotDA on that unit until they suffer enough casualties that it no longer becomes worth it, at which stage I'd switch to the secondary option (in this case heavy Hellblasters or plas Devs). Until that time the plas devastators would be putting out more efficient firepower without stratagem support than the heavy Hellblasters which is why I'd choose to take them. Hope that makes sense

I would think that the Devs can be more efficient if you consider ablative wounds. a plasma dev squad can have 4 cannons with d3 shots at 36", a combi plasma with 1 at 24", and 5 additional wound soaking bodys that can still shoot bolters at 24". You have to kill half the squad before you even get to the plasma, so the squad itself isnt lossing effectiveness until its halfway gone. Alternatively hellblasters have slightly shorter range at 30", not a big deal, but 9 shots vs devs 7-8 average shots, and each loss effects the squads damage output linearly. If you can get the hellblasters into double tap range they become much stronger, but 15" can be harder said than done.

Personally when i run my devs i put an apothecary and azreal near them and just let then do their thing. They make an excellent center of line area of denial, and are quite effective.

Grim Resolve and WftDA go well together as you can take those 10 man squads without worrying too much about morale losses.

Azuza001 wrote:
I would think that the Devs can be more efficient if you consider ablative wounds. a plasma dev squad can have 4 cannons with d3 shots at 36", a combi plasma with 1 at 24", and 5 additional wound soaking bodys that can still shoot bolters at 24". You have to kill half the squad before you even get to the plasma, so the squad itself isnt lossing effectiveness until its halfway gone. Alternatively hellblasters have slightly shorter range at 30", not a big deal, but 9 shots vs devs 7-8 average shots, and each loss effects the squads damage output linearly. If you can get the hellblasters into double tap range they become much stronger, but 15" can be harder said than done.

Personally when i run my devs i put an apothecary and azreal near them and just let then do their thing. They make an excellent center of line area of denial, and are quite effective.

We're comparing the plas Devs to Hellblasters with heavy incinerators so they've got the same range and the Hellblasters will always have less shots per model (though better strength and AP).

I almost always run a 10-man unit of standard Hellblasters with Az, a Lieutenant, and an Ancient. I think you'll find you get much more milage out of an Ancient than the Apothecary, especially in your case with single wound models like Devastators. The Ancient isn't limited to one model a turn in the same way an Apothecary is, so if my 10 Hellblasters get nuked off the board, 5 of them are going to go down shooting with absolutely no reason not to overcharge - not to mention the same applies to whatever else is in the 6" buff bubble provided by my characters.

Didnt realize it was heavy incinerators, but i stand by my logic. An ancient doesnt do anything until your losing strength, its burst damage vs sustained with the apothecary. When your removing bolter guys on the dev squad them getting free shots isnt a big deal. I agree a lieutenant is a good idea as well.

I have seen the heavy incinerators multiple times in semi competitive and competitive games, and even the owner of the models in these games has agreed they never do anything that normal couldnt have done better.

Well i they have to chew through 20 wounds t8 first of the bastion while the helblasters are shooting from it. after that Azrael bubble takes over. This is the list i will probably be using:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [80 PL, 1557pts] ++

+ HQ +

Azrael [9 PL, 180pts]
. Warlord: Brilliant Strategist

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Techmarine on Bike [6 PL, 92pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Conversion beamer
. Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 4x Scout (Combat Knife)
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 4x Scout (Boltgun)
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 4x Scout (Boltgun)
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

+ Elites +

Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought [9 PL, 206pts]
. Two twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 350pts]: Heavy Plasma Incinerators, 9x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 336pts]: Grav-flux bombard, 2x Heavy flamer, 2x Hunter-killer missile, Storm cannon array

++ Fortification Network (Imperium - Dark Angels) [10 PL, 192pts] ++

+ Fortification +

Imperial Bastion [10 PL, 192pts]: 4x Heavy bolter

++ Total: [90 PL, 1749pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Just had a game with my Dark Angels, playing against my friend's pure Tempestus Scions list. We played an ITC mission (#1 from the Champions packet I believe), with 2000 point lists.
My list:

I don't know my opponent's list composition exactly, but I do know it was 2 battalions with 3 Tempestor Primes with command rods, a Lord Commissar with the relic pistol (one of the Tempestors had Kurov's Aquila), 3 Taurox Primes (all had HSVG, Storm Bolters and Gatling Cannons) and a large number of Tempestus Scion squads, of which some had just the regular hotshot lasguns, some had Volley Guns, and some had Plasma guns.

He won the roll-off, but elected to go second. I flew my Dark Talon over into his backfield using the Speed of the Raven stratagem and dropped my stasis bomb on one of his squads. I got 9 4+'s with the bomb, which was crazy good. I then polished off the last guy and took a few wounds off of one of the Tauroxes with the plane's shooting. My Devastators finished the Taurox, but due to everything of my opponent's being out of line of sight that was all the shooting I could do. My Scout Bikes were deployed in my backfield to prevent deep strikes, which ended up being key. My opponent brought in the Tempestor with the Aquila, and despite having about 3 squads shooting at my Dark Talon (and using Grenadiers on one of them to throw 9 krak grenades), he only did 7 wounds to it (thanks to some very lucky rolls on my part and some really crappy rolls on his part). In the second turn, it went pretty much like the first except that I didn't actually kill anything. I took both remaining Tauroxes down to 3 wounds apiece and knocked one Scion squad down to a single guy (thanks to the +1 save strat), but nothing actually got fully killed. My opponent finally dropped my plane and managed to place a couple of dropping squads on some objectives and killing a single Hellblaster (who did not get to shoot back). On turn 3 I killed both Tauroxes and a Scion squad. He dropped his remaining Scions, careful to stay outside of Auspex Scan range. This actually hurt him a lot, as he was way too conservative with his drops and thus didn't really threaten my units. He did kill two of my Scout squads and actually had held more objectives than me for 2 turns. From then on it just went downhill for him, with me just hunting down and killing Scion squads and thanks to atrocious dice rolling on his part he didn't kill a single other model for the rest of the game. I ended up winning fairly handily (my opponent conceded in turn 5). It was mainly a bad matchup for my opponent, with all of my Azrael saves and the -1 from the Darkshroud just hosing his shooting. As I said, his dice were ice cold all game long, so that didn't help him either. I'm definitely liking the Azrael gunline as far as being competitive, but it is actually fairly boring and dull to play. I have some mobile stuff in the form of Scout Bikes and the Talonmaster, but the bikes mainly ended up doing backfield screening duty. They were key to preventing those Scions from dropping in behind my lines, which really would have thrown a monkey wrench into my plans.

Based on this game and others I've played with similar lists, I can recommend the following things to all competitive Dark Angels players:
Always, always, always advance with the Darkshroud. Remember, you don't have to use its full movement even if you advance, but the 4++ save on it will keep it alive longer, and let's be honest that Heavy Bolter it carries rarely makes a difference.
Speed of the Raven is probably the second best Dark Angels stratagem in the book (after WotDA). Being able to advance with a Talonmaster and still shoot and charge gives him a massive threat range, and on the first turn you can get just about anywhere on the board with a Dark Talon.
Get yourself some Scout Bikes. Seriously, do it! They are an extremely versatile unit, good for screening the important stuff, grabbing objectives, and shooting your opponent's screen units (6 with a Storm Bolter on the Sarge put out 40 S4 shots at 12" or less). The only negative to them is the lack of the Ravenwing keyword.
Hellblasters can be their own screen against reserve units. The threat of Auspex Scan from such a powerful unit will make your opponent think twice about dropping close to them. Of course, if your opponent is figuring on charging them with something that was already on the board (like a Knight Gallant), you will want to have something in between, but even if they get charged, they can fall back and shoot with the Intractible stratagem (if they survive the attack).
Ezekiel is pretty good to have, and worth taking over a standard Librarian for the extra denial if you have the extra points. I like to take Aversion and Trephination as my powers, although Trephination is kind of bad against some opponents (with good Leadership).
Devastators make a great supplement to Hellblasters for engaging big stuff, and they should always take a Cherub if possible. Lascannons are probably best, but Missile Launchers give some good versatility in addition to granting access to the Flakk Missile stratagem, which when coupled with the Cherub can be a great way to deal with pesky flying enemies (like Flyrants or Riptides).
It's not a terrible idea to give a Heavy Bolter to at least one Scout squad, as they can then use the Hellfire shells strat. Good for dealing mortal wounds to something big that Scouts would otherwise struggle to hurt, or for punching through invul saves.

nice writeup, i just do not see the advantage over scout bikers as opposed to normal scouts. i rather use normal ravenwing bikers for that.

SpaceJS wrote:
nice writeup, i just do not see the advantage over scout bikers as opposed to normal scouts. i rather use normal ravenwing bikers for that.

Scout bikes have pros and cons over normal Ravenwing. They are slightly cheaper and have slightly more firepower (except for expensive special weapons on standard Ravenwing), but have a worse save and don't get the Ravenwing keyword, meaning no Speed of the Raven or Jink on them. I've found the scout bikes to be more efficient than Ravenwing, but YMMV I guess.

I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

It would be a bit harder for me to make that work, as most events I go to use ITC terrain rules (meaning bottom floor of ruins blocks line of sight). Not impossible, but difficult. I do like the way you think, though, and I too am trying very hard to find a niche for dreads in my comp lists.

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.

true, it does have a 5++ and i also use a techmarine on bike to support my dreads. my opponent also often has other units to worry about. I did order a Sicaran venator as a replasment as well to see how that goes.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

Not so much... if you're willing to overcharge and spend WotDA, the HPC+ML is a better build, in average. Heck, even the 2x Twin AC is a bit better in average as well. The Twin LC Mortis has more or less the same performance.

But, if I'd use any kind of Dreadnought for AT purposes, I'd look no further than Contemptor Mortis or the Leviathan. Both are more efficient than the normal dreads

 Vector Strike wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

Not so much... if you're willing to overcharge and spend WotDA, the HPC+ML is a better build, in average. Heck, even the 2x Twin AC is a bit better in average as well. The Twin LC Mortis has more or less the same performance.

But, if I'd use any kind of Dreadnought for AT purposes, I'd look no further than Contemptor Mortis or the Leviathan. Both are more efficient than the normal dreads

Yeah, but I feel like there's always going to be a better WotDA candidate that particular phase in a DA army. You don't want to burn that every turn for one PC.

Definitely will think about the Contemptor Mortis or Leviathan, but I do think the twin LC/ML Ven Dread is the best non-FW option for ranged AT.

I have a friend who uses a twin-las / CML contemptor Mortis in his RG list and it performs really well. I tend to get all my anti-tank from various forms of plas in my DA force. I'll be trying a plas/ML Deredeo later this week as a secondary option for WotDA - will let you know how it goes

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

Yeah, but I feel like there's always going to be a better WotDA candidate that particular phase in a DA army. You don't want to burn that every turn for one PC.

Definitely will think about the Contemptor Mortis or Leviathan, but I do think the twin LC/ML Ven Dread is the best non-FW option for ranged AT.

(Forgot about the plasma Deredeo - it's really good)

non-FW Dreads... yeah, I'd say you're right. Plasma Redemptor is close to its performance also, but falls short after losing some Wounds

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.

Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.

Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.

Also do not forget the 5++

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.

Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.

When the Contemptor has lost 5 wounds and is hitting on 3s, the Ven Dread still has 3 wounds left and hitting on 2s. I don't have the FW points in front of me.

How much more are you paying for the extra 2 wounds and the 5++?

the mortis contemptor is 206 points, it also moves at 9", you have as many las shots as a predator as well.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LC ML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?

I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.

i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability

Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.

Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.

When the Contemptor has lost 5 wounds and is hitting on 3s, the Ven Dread still has 3 wounds left and hitting on 2s. I don't have the FW points in front of me.

How much more are you paying for the extra 2 wounds and the 5++?

Not much more, actually.

And by the time that Ven Dread loses those three wounds the Mortis is still contributing to the fight.

SpaceJS wrote:
the mortis contemptor is 206 points, it also moves at 9", you have as many las shots as a predator as well.

Fair enough. You're getting a lot there for 41 more points.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:
the mortis contemptor is 206 points, it also moves at 9", you have as many las shots as a predator as well.

Fair enough. You're getting a lot there for 41 more points.

it also looks way better also for 235 points you have a relic contemptor dread which looks even better, more wounds and slower degradation