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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So I keep hearing how Shining Spears are the most OP thing in the game, or variations on that theme.

It's awesome that Spears aren't the trash they've been since 6E came out. They were OK in the Index. I see them as useful and good. But what makes them OP?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.


Oh internet hyperbole, you never disappoint. "Shining Spears are the most OP units in the game" vs "All bikes in the game are absolute trash". Beautifull.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 20:15:19


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




SHHHHH!

Yes, Shining Spears are awesome now, especially with the Saim Hann trait and Raging Winds stratagem.

Enough talk - don't want everyone knowing the secret!
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So, then, where do the Spears actually fall?

They don't look that much better than Marine bikers, for the points. Better at CC, worse at shooting.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galas wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nothing. They're just the only bikes in the game that aren't absolute trash, so they look better relatively.


Oh internet hyperbole, you never disappoint. "Shining Spears are the most OP units in the game" vs "All bikes in the game are absolute trash". Beautifull.

Spoiler:


Amen.

In any case they pay 18 points for T4 3+, a 4++ vs ranged, Fly, 2 attacks, and a 16" move. The lance is also great at punching hard stuff and they pack a TSC for softer stuff. And the exarch rerolls to wound on vehicles.
Chaos Bikes are 23 now and move 14" with T5 and 1 attack.

In other words don't go buying a ton, because they're likely going to get a point adjustment upwards.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





They pay 31 points, not 18 pts.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Bharring wrote:
They pay 31 points, not 18 pts.


With the gear, yes. Base is 18 and reflective of the stuff before weapons.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Yes, 31 pts including the lance and catapults. That's five shots each before a rock solid charge, which they can then runaway and repeat again next turn.

SHHHHH!
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

How many wounds do they have?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





2, Exarch has 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not looking at buying more. I have my unit, that I've had for a while. I don't like duplicating Aspects (aside from DA).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 20:43:56


 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Hmm... they appear to be better Terminators, to be honest. Probably they would be better at 36-38 points with weapons.
This, combined with a nerf to plasma of course, and then suddenly all 2 wound models become much more viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 20:46:19


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





A Biker Marine is 27 with Wargear. With a PG, it's 40pts.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

I don't have the rules for Shining Speras in front of me.

Whats the basic load out of a Shining Spear for 31 points vs a Biker Marine for 27? I believe biker marines are in a good spot. Their problem is plasma spam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 20:53:38


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Twin ShuriKat and Laser Lance.

LL is S6 AP-4 D2, and both Assault 1 6" and a CC weapon, but only S6 for the first round of combat.

Spears are Fly, and move fast. S3 T4 3+ 4++ 2W.

Bike Marines have twin Boltguns, move almost as fast but no fly, S4 T5 3+ 2W.

Naked, Spears are much better. But Marines can take 2 Specials (PG/Melta/Flamer/Grav) and 1 Combi even in a 3-man.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Hm. But they pay for those special. Even spamming Plasma Guns I believe Shining Spears are all-around better costing less points. In meele combat they are just much, much better. I'm gonna look for the RW Black Knights rules to compare them.

And to be honest I can't see a Bike unit staying in combat more than one turn. And with the Saim-Haim trait they are even better (Not a problem with that, its how it should be), but yeah, they seem a little underpriced for what they do.

The 4++ and Fly keyword is a big deal. The problem of Marine Bikers is how fast they are killed even with T5.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 21:00:25


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

They're up there with Reapers and Hemlocks as being the best units in the Eldar codex, and pretty much what ends up defining them competitively with the above units.

As for what they have, they are a T4, W2 (W3 on free Exarch) model with a 3+ (4++ against shooting).

They get Laser lances and twin shuriken catapults, with the lances putting out 1 6" S6/AP-4/D2 shot per turn, and the catapults putting out 4 12" S4/AP0/D1 shots (AP-3 on a wound roll of 6).

In combat, on the turn they charge, they each get two (3 on the Exarch) attacks at S6/AP-4/D2 (Exarch can buy a special lance for 2 additional points that strikes at S8).

All this for 31ppm. They're very good. Deserving a nerf? I'm not sure. But there are a lot of Eldar units that pale in comparison (the codex as a whole seems to have a problem with having a few units that are amazing, and then being mostly filled with a bunch of others who are either terrible, or are already superseded in their role by better units). And to get back on my soap box, it's ridiculous that Spectres were nerfed to the excessive degree that they were while these guys are able to freely run around untouched.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/05 21:04:37


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






4++ is a huge deal. Combined with the fact that they go to 2+/3++ with protect on them. Then if get quicken off - it's pretty much over.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





For clarity of discussion their 4++ is only against ranged weapons.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

A Dark Angel RW Black Knight has the normal stats of a marine biker but with 2A (3 on the champion) and LD8.

Their basic loadout is frag and krak grenades, one bolt pistol and:
-Corvus Hammer: S+1 (So S5) AP-1 and 1D (In a wound roll of 6, they do 3D damage)
Their bikes have Plasma Talons:
- 18" Assault 2 Plasma Guns (So S7/8 AP-3 D 1/2). But don't you dare to advance and overcharge or every 1 and 2 is a 50 model that goes pop.

All of this for 50 points per model. So they are much worse in meele and better at shooting, with a worse body. (Because a 4++ is much better than +1T. I know its only vs shooting, but lets be honest, thats what really matters. Lack of Fly and -2" of Movement) for 19 points more per model. Lets be honest, Black Knights aren't the best unit out there, but yeah.

I believe most bikes out there should be in the 28-50 point range, based in what they are, with Ork bikers in the low end and Eldar and SM bikers/jetbikers in the high end. I assume we could count Rough Riders and Daemonic cavalry in "bikes" equivalents, but those probably should be cheaper, more in the 18-25 point range. Khorne Bloodcrushers are monstrous cavalry so they are obviously deserve of costing more.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/05 21:14:30


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Galas wrote:
A Dark Angel RW Black Knight has the normal stats of a marine biker but with 2A (3 on the champion) and LD8.

Their basic loadout is frag and krak grenades, one bolt pistol and:
-Corvus Hammer: S+1 (So S5) AP-1 and 1D (In a wound roll of 6, they do 3D damage)
Their bikes have Plasma Talons:
- 18" Assault 2 Plasma Guns (So S7/8 AP-3 D 1/2)

All of this for 50 points per model. So they are much worse in meele and better at shooting, with a worse body. (Because a 4++ is much better than +1T. I know its only vs shooting, but lets be honest, thats what really matters. Lack of Fly and -2" of Movement) for 19 points more per model. Lets be honest, Black Knights aren't the best unit out there, but yeah.

4 Shuriken shots are great. I wouldn't even say the Blackknights are better shooters.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





An SM Biker with a PG is 40ppm. So you get 3 of them for every 4 Spears.

They can shoot 2 S7 AP-3 shots at 12", alongside their 4 boltgun shots. They can overcharge, but I agree it's not worth the risk.

Against non-multiwound models, or models with a FnP, isn't that about as good?

Spears need to stay in combat for 2 rounds (unless they wipe the unit), because they can't fall back in their opponent's turn. And they can't charge if they fell back.

I'm not saying Spears aren't good, but I'm seeing them as a little better than SM Bikers, not "The new OP".
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






A company Vetren on a bike cost 58 points with a melta gun and a storm sheild. It's pretty comparable in firepower and ability to take damage. Has less close combat ability - less mobility - no fly keyword. It cost 27 points more. You practically get 2 SS for vetren biker. LOL

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Wait, explain that one, Xeno:
How is 2 Plasma shots at 18" range (non-overcharged) better than 4 Shuriken shots at 12" range? Does not compute?
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Bikes, like non-heavy cavalry in more fantasy/rank and file games, shouldn't be something you are using to charge directly in the enemy good meele units.

Staying two rounds in combat should be actually better for them that being out there in the open, because their objetives should be pretty bad at meele.

I have no problems with Shining Spears being better in meele in the turn they charge than SM bikers, more agile and movile. Heck, thats all the fantasy of the unit. But they are too more durable, and an Eldar Jetbike isn't something that should be more durable than a SM or a Ork bike.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/05 21:25:01


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Bharring wrote:
An SM Biker with a PG is 40ppm. So you get 3 of them for every 4 Spears.

They can shoot 2 S7 AP-3 shots at 12", alongside their 4 boltgun shots. They can overcharge, but I agree it's not worth the risk.

Against non-multiwound models, or models with a FnP, isn't that about as good?

Spears need to stay in combat for 2 rounds (unless they wipe the unit), because they can't fall back in their opponent's turn. And they can't charge if they fell back.

I'm not saying Spears aren't good, but I'm seeing them as a little better than SM Bikers, not "The new OP".

The fact that you can deep strike the spears to prevent alpha strike - and quicken them to ensure first turn assault makes them a lot better. Still - the 4++ save from shooting alone makes them superior to marine bikes - plus their close combat ability is better too.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Melta Gun has twice the range. Melta Gun does d6 damage vs flat 2. Melta Gun gets *2* dice and picks the highest at the same range as the Spear can shoot at all. 3++ is a lot better than a 4++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, I use my Spears as a bully troops. I like seeing Bikes used as bully troops as opposed to front lines - whether they're CSM, Orkz, or Spears.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 21:22:28


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Bharring wrote:
Wait, explain that one, Xeno:
How is 2 Plasma shots at 18" range (non-overcharged) better than 4 Shuriken shots at 12" range? Does not compute?

The laser lance is as good as one of those plasma shots - it's actually better because it gets 2 flat damage without having to try to kill itself and then 4 shuriken shots is better than a single plasma shot. Assuming they are in rage BUT - they will almost always be in range with quicken or really just advancing should put them in range.

It's also worth noting that the craft world biker can advance and shoot with no penalty.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think I got my answer to how Spears are considered The New OP:

-They are good for their points
-Somehow 2x18" Plasma shots is outclassed by 4 ShuriCat shots
-Melta Guns and a 3++ pale in comparison to 6" range D:2 and a 4++
-CWE therefore OP, because everything always WWPs and gets Quicken'ed.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

I don't believe Shining Spears should go up in points by a big margin, probably a little. This Is probably a case of other bikers
(In general) being too expensive... and Plasma spam being too cheap and reliable.

And when you have plasma guns killing with ease bikers that lack invulnerable saves for 1/3 the cost...

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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