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Kdash wrote:Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).
As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.
So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.
Another “win” for the SS?
Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.
I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.
Black knights are quite comparable.
A unit of 8 is more durable (t5) because they have no disadvantages when advancing for a single CP so they will always sport a 4++
When they shoot they unleash hell on a level that makes shining spears pale (3 damage per shot HURTS). More than enough to bring down one razorback and half without any kind of support (which DA have plenty of) at range 18". On the other hand, in assault Shining spears are much better than the BK. Both have a stratagem to disengage and assault again. In the end between the two i don't see a clear winner.
Spoletta wrote: What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.
Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.
For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.
Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)
Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.
None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.
Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.
I don't know what you are talking about, Genestealers to traverse the table need only a single cp and no support. Welcome to Kraken.
Also, Jormungard is the second best trait in the codex, the fact that you define it as crap tells me a lot.
Kraken is the best - not arguing that - jorm is just a strategem- it is literally the worst trait in the mix - it just has 1 decent stratagem that you can duplicate with trygons (which are excellent units). geens max out at a 8+6+6+ charge range It's an average of 18 though - with no reroll charge. Considering a 24 inch neural zone on most deployments all the opponent needs to do is deploy 6 inches off the deployment line to protect his lines. Vs a tyrnaid army - this is exactly what any compotent player will do. Spears even without quicken extend that threat range to 10 inches (and have a reroll charge) off the deployment line which is also counter productive because starting that far away from an eldar army is basically surrendering the game turn 1. Plus the unit can always quicken - so any advantage of being deployed so far away is gone.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
man being able to force the enemy to compress 6" deeper in their deployment zone is actually pretty good in my book. Like, how many points does it cost to shrink the enemy's DZ by so much? That's literally half their DZ in the Dawn of War deployment, and they have to be more than 6" deep in their zone for things like the table-quarters deployment.
That's phenomenally good, and some units can't even fit in such a small space (e.g. anything with a base longer than 6" playing the Dawn of War deployment).
Half the deployments have a 18" neutral zone now, and a lot depends on the mission being played. Starting so far away from the center of the board is feasible only in 2 missions out of 6.
Let's not devolve into that though, we would mix in too many elements.
In the end my point is the same, the spears are an excellent unit against gunlines (OP? maybe) and a decent unit against other lists, which can become a "good" unit if you pour the Eldar mojo in it.
Even if they are overbuffed though, if they fail to inflict enough damage there are too many ways to get rid of them.
Right - as I was saying before. Even in subsequent rounds of combat in CC. A str 3 ap-4 2d weapons is very good. -4 AP on a close combat weapon is literally relic level and it's not like the bikes have to stay there - they can just fly away and nuke a unit with shoot 28 inches away and charge again with a stratagem.
That situation is surprisingly complicated. I hope I got all of the following correct, but I'm sure one of you will tell me if I didn't.
Advancing prohibits shooting and charging.
Assault weapons remove the shooting prohibition of advancing, but impose a -1 penalty to hit.
Battle Focus removes the shooting prohibition (and the assault weapon penalty) for advancing, but only for non-heavy weapons.
Falling Back prohibits advancing, shooting, and charging.
Flying removes the shooting prohibition of Falling Back.
Feigned Retreat removes the shooting and charging prohibitions of Falling Back.
Warriors of the Raging Winds removes the charging prohibition of advancing, but also requires advancing.
Therefore...
If a Shining Spears unit Falls Back, it can shoot (Fly), but cannot advance or charge.
If a Shining Spears unit Falls Back with Feigned Retreat, it cannot advance, but it can shoot and charge.
If a Shining Spears unit Falls Back, regardless of whether it not it used Feigned Retreat, it cannot use Warriors of the Raging Winds because Falling Back prohibits advancing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/12 17:38:43
let me correct my mistake their best guns shoot 6 inches but I was including a 6" advance which they can't do if they fallback. This makes their fallback/charge/full shooting threat range 22 inches not 28. Holy crap. Such a huge over-site.
Spoletta wrote: What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.
Because Eldar have really terrible horde control. Scorpions are garbage, Spectres were nerfed to garbage. That leaves Spears, basically.
And gardians / Warwalkers with scatter lasers/ bikes with scatter lasers (siamhan). Spears are just better than them because they are OP.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/12 17:57:12
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Right - as I was saying before. Even in subsequent rounds of combat in CC. A str 3 ap-4 2d weapons is very good. -4 AP on a close combat weapon is literally relic level and it's not like the bikes have to stay there - they can just fly away and nuke a unit with shoot 28 inches away and charge again with a stratagem.
But it's not though, you're wounding on 5-6 and yeah the AP is great but you gotta get wounds through to do that damage. Against hordes, you're only dealing 1 dmg so half the shots are already wasted, against big targets you're getting all that damage off but you're wounding on a 6, hardly worth it. They're really good against T<6 2 wound models that they charge first, so what? They're just as weak against similar units of charged first and every unit's going to be better than SOMETHING.
And gardians / Warwalkers with scatter lasers/ bikes with scatter lasers (siamhan). Spears are just better than them because they are OP.
No, they're better because eldar horde control absolutely blows. With the nerf to shadow spectres we've basically got nothing but the spectres (now barely worth it) and the spears. Guardians at 12" aren't going to get anything off before they die, warwalkers and bikes with scatter lasers take absolutely forever to clear hordes and are VERY expensive. Can basically only take scat lasers on massively overcosted saim-hann windriders too and it's still garbage.
For some reason GW forgot that although Eldar don't bring hordes, they still need something to deal with them. Hell, shining spears shouldn't even be good against hordes, they only "are" because they can do some damage to hordes and then do other gak.
The easy way to fix this is nerf the cost of windriders down and give our other shuriken wielders better range and/or a points reduction since point-for-point eldar "anti-horde" get slaughtered.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/12 18:09:54
There is nothing wrong with the PPD of a guardian - they are very effective against infantry per point. Between webwaystrike and wave serpants - Gardians have the two best delivery methods for infantry. Wave serpants aren't bad anti infantry themselves considering they will likely live until the last turn without some serious focusing.
They just arent absurd like prenerf spectres and current SS are. Keep calm and do math.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
pm713 wrote: What are we calling a squad here? 5 Knights vs 5 Spears? 5 knights vs 10 spears? 5 Knights vs 3 Spears?
Sorry forgot to mention it...
I was looking at base squads - so 3 of each, and deliberately ignoring stratagems and psychic powers.
That is what I assumed. Absolutely shocking to me that the SS are far superior.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It all depends on what you call "anti horde". Something that can kill a 10 man squad of GEQ, or something that can be used to effectively kill 30 GEQ?
If you're only looking at killing half a dozen 10 man squads, pretty much any unit "can" wipe out the squad, simply because of the rate of fire of a lot of the weapons.
The main problem Eldar have, isn't that they "can't" kill hordes, it is just that in order to make their points back, a single unit would probably have to spend 3 to 5 turns doing nothing but kill them just to make their points back.
It is why Wave Serpent spam can be so good, because they are durable, relatively cheap on points and have FLY. Spears are the same, especially when you consider a unit of 9 has 36 str 4 shots at 12" range.
Likewise, 20 Guardians out of the webway can clear units as well, but, you then have to rely on the webway.
I personally think, this is a little where Dire Avengers "can" play a part, with their 18" weapons. Saim-Hann scat bikes can also do this if needed, but it is a points sink.
The Mattler wrote: You misunderstand. These are points per wound numbers, which measure efficiency, so they remain constant regardless how many copies of each examined unit you have. A unit of 5 Spears has exactly the same PPW as 1 Spear.
No, I understand, but you can't look at PPW in a vacuum. Yes, for the points, they have a very good PPW. If that is the sole metric on which we are judging all units then I suppose there is nothing to discuss, we go through the rulebook, throw out any units that fall outside of a narrowly agreed upon PPW range and we're all set, perfectly balanced game. Right?
The Mattler wrote: Another point you misunderstand. If one 31pts Spear does more as much damage when shooting than 5-6 shuriken from Banshees or Scorpions that cost 68-82pts, that's a situation where the Spear is just much more efficient. Cost doesn't matter per se; what matters is what you get for a given cost.
As I mentioned, if this is the sole metric by which we judge all units, great, we should have a balanced game in a matter of days.
The Mattler wrote: I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was that if the Spears got into combat and didn't kill their target, so chose to leave combat the following turn because their shooting is better than their non-charging melee, they would still be making as large a contribution as equal points of Banshees, Scorpions, or Wraithblades. They can't charge on those turns, though, without Feigned Retreat.
However, they only have to charge once for them to be stuck for the duration of your opponent's round. As mentioned, if he has even mediocre hand to hand, they're dead. So they charged and killed one thing probably, as expected, then died.
The Mattler wrote: Nope, the Spears compare favourably with most of the units in the Codex (not just the melee units) in either the Shooting or Fight phases (albeit usually with less range and more movement).
Yet, this is an important distinction, to bring that shooting to bear, they have to be close, close enough that your opponent will be able to bring whatever firepower he has available to bear on them. Your Dark Reapers are not putting themselves in range of *everything* your opponent's army has to offer. Shining Spears are quite literally putting themselves in range of everything, including assault units.
The Mattler wrote: Even units like Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters have trouble keeping up with them in a single phase, let alone two.
To be fair, unless your opponent is utterly incompetent your Shining Spears *must* earn their points quickly, because they are not going to be around for multiple rounds. I know you guys are big on how unbelievably durable this unit is, but the math simply doesn't support that conclusion.
The Mattler wrote: Mediocre anything can do significant damage to Aeldari non-wraith, non-vehicles units. That's how it's supposed to be, since the Aeldari lean toward damage output instead of resilience.
Exactly. PPW is a great measure of efficiency, but fails to take into account contextual factors associated with the army they are supported by. Does the points calculus change because CWE screening troops are more costly? Is it different because high toughness line troops are not as easy to find?
The Mattler wrote: Like the rest of 40k, it mainly dependent which unit gets the first strike.
Mitigating opponent response is a pretty good metric to work with also. One the Shining Spears can only do with a 4++ vs shooting, that's it, they have nothing else protecting them as they sit within 12" of your opponent's entire army. I mean unless you have them running around behind buildings, taking out satellite squads, but they'll be a long time earning their points back that way.
The Mattler wrote: On average, it only takes 3 Spears to kill a Patriarch in one Aeldari turn if they catch him out (or other units shoot the squads he's hiding in), with 4-5 Spears pretty much guaranteeing the kill. If the Patriarch charges the Spears, he can reliably kill 4-5 of them too.
Do I really need to offer commentary on your opponent that allows you to either freely charge or shoot at their Patriarch? Basically, if you get to charge the Patriarch that probably indicates that GSC went first, which brings all kinds of other assumptions into play. But on this point, now you're diving into and entirely different mechanics issue, which is discussed in numerous other threads that I'm not going to get into here (going first is really good).
Edited for punctuation failure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 18:41:18
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Kdash wrote: It all depends on what you call "anti horde". Something that can kill a 10 man squad of GEQ, or something that can be used to effectively kill 30 GEQ?
If you're only looking at killing half a dozen 10 man squads, pretty much any unit "can" wipe out the squad, simply because of the rate of fire of a lot of the weapons.
The main problem Eldar have, isn't that they "can't" kill hordes, it is just that in order to make their points back, a single unit would probably have to spend 3 to 5 turns doing nothing but kill them just to make their points back.
It is why Wave Serpent spam can be so good, because they are durable, relatively cheap on points and have FLY. Spears are the same, especially when you consider a unit of 9 has 36 str 4 shots at 12" range.
Likewise, 20 Guardians out of the webway can clear units as well, but, you then have to rely on the webway.
I personally think, this is a little where Dire Avengers "can" play a part, with their 18" weapons. Saim-Hann scat bikes can also do this if needed, but it is a points sink.
Can also tar-pit hordes with wave serpent. Takes away their ability to shoot or assault you next turn at the expense of taking attacks from 10+ models that can't really hurt you. I've done this lots of times. They are ether forced to stay locked with you or are forced to allow you to charge them or another unit for free.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Kdash wrote:Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).
As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.
So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.
Another “win” for the SS?
Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.
I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.
Black knights are quite comparable.
A unit of 8 is more durable (t5) because they have no disadvantages when advancing for a single CP so they will always sport a 4++
When they shoot they unleash hell on a level that makes shining spears pale (3 damage per shot HURTS). More than enough to bring down one razorback and half without any kind of support (which DA have plenty of) at range 18". On the other hand, in assault Shining spears are much better than the BK. Both have a stratagem to disengage and assault again. In the end between the two i don't see a clear winner.
The problem is, Spears have no penalty to advancing either, due to battle focus and always have the 4++ regardless of advancing, so have additional protection vs alpha strikes (beyond deep striking via the webway or cloudstrike).
I agree that when both units have the 4++ the RBKs are more durable, and also more durable in combat because of the higher toughness, but, a unit of 8 would cost 118 points more than 8 Spears, and for me, that feels like too much.
Oh, i agree, when using the stratagem they will melt tanks etc from range without any issues and stay "relatively" safe, whereas the Spears have to be super close. However, Spears have the ability to not only target vehicles with their 2 dmg -4ap attacks, they also have the ability to hunt down units that have 1 or 2 wound models without much of a penalty. You also have to factor in that the 3 dmg comes at a risk of killing yourself (16 shots will net you 2.6 1's) whereas Spears don't get hot. Without over-charging and the stratagem, both units then have the same dmg output. (Yes there are options for re-rolling 1's, but we'd then have to take it into account for both sides, and that certainly won't help the RBKs xD).
Personally, i feel like RBKs are paying too much for their extra 12" range especially with their -1 to hit penalty if they advance (unless using the stratagem).
If the corvus hammers were +2 str -2ap for the same cost, i think we'd see a much closer comparison between the 2 units and a much smaller gap, as their combat efficiency would increase, which would then be offset by their current points cost. (to me, the hammer should be a mix between the power maul and the thunderhammer, but it somehow seems to have turned out as a bad mix of a power maul and axe...)
The Mattler wrote: You misunderstand. These are points per wound numbers, which measure efficiency, so they remain constant regardless how many copies of each examined unit you have. A unit of 5 Spears has exactly the same PPW as 1 Spear.
No, I understand, but you can't look at PPW in a vacuum. Yes, for the points, they have a very good PPW. If that is the sole metric on which we are judging all units then I suppose there is nothing to discuss, we go through the rulebook, throw out any units that fall outside of a narrowly agreed upon PPW range and we're all set, perfectly balanced game. Right?
The Mattler wrote: Another point you misunderstand. If one 31pts Spear does more as much damage when shooting than 5-6 shuriken from Banshees or Scorpions that cost 68-82pts, that's a situation where the Spear is just much more efficient. Cost doesn't matter per se; what matters is what you get for a given cost.
As I mentioned, if this is the sole metric by which we judge all units, great, we should have a balanced game in a matter of days.
The Mattler wrote: I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was that if the Spears got into combat and didn't kill their target, so chose to leave combat the following turn because their shooting is better than their non-charging melee, they would still be making as large a contribution as equal points of Banshees, Scorpions, or Wraithblades. They can't charge on those turns, though, without Feigned Retreat.
However, they only have to charge once for them to be stuck for the duration of your opponent's round. As mentioned, if he has even mediocre hand to hand, they're dead. So they charged and killed one thing probably, as expected, then died.
The Mattler wrote: Nope, the Spears compare favourably with most of the units in the Codex (not just the melee units) in either the Shooting or Fight phases (albeit usually with less range and more movement).
Yet, this is an important distinction, to bring that shooting to bear, they have to be close, close enough that your opponent will be able to bring whatever firepower he has available to bear on them. Your Dark Reapers are not putting themselves in range of *everything* your opponent's army has to offer. Shining Spears are quite literally putting themselves in range of everything, including assault units.
The Mattler wrote: Even units like Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters have trouble keeping up with them in a single phase, let alone two.
To be fair, unless your opponent is utterly incompetent your Shining Spears *must* earn their points quickly, because they are not going to be around for multiple rounds. I know you guys are big on how unbelievably durable this unit is, but the math simply doesn't support that conclusion.
The Mattler wrote: Mediocre anything can do significant damage to Aeldari non-wraith, non-vehicles units. That's how it's supposed to be, since the Aeldari lean toward damage output instead of resilience.
Exactly. PPW is a great measure of efficiency, but fails to take into account contextual factors associated with the army they are supported by. Does the points calculus change because CWE screening troops are more costly? Is it different because high toughness line troops are not as easy to find?
The Mattler wrote: Like the rest of 40k, it mainly dependent which unit gets the first strike.
Mitigating opponent response is a pretty good metric to work with also. One the Shining Spears can only do with a 4++ vs shooting, that's it, they have nothing else protecting them as they sit within 12" of your opponent's entire army. I mean unless you have them running around behind buildings, taking out satellite squads, but they'll be a long time earning their points back that way.
The Mattler wrote: On average, it only takes 3 Spears to kill a Patriarch in one Aeldari turn if they catch him out (or other units shoot the squads he's hiding in), with 4-5 Spears pretty much guaranteeing the kill. If the Patriarch charges the Spears, he can reliably kill 4-5 of them too.
Do I really need to offer commentary on your opponent that allows you to either freely charge or shoot at their Patriarch? Basically, if you get to charge the Patriarch that probably indicates that GSC went first, which brings all kinds of other assumptions into play. But on this point, now you're diving into and entirely different mechanics issue, which is discussed in numerous other threads that I'm not going to get into here (going first is really good).
Edited for punctuation failure.
I agree with you in regards to PPW, efficiency and mathhammer (though it might not have come across that way when looking at my comparison posts in isolation.
Mathhammer is a great tool, however, it should always be used to guide decisions, rather than control decisions and choices. 2 or 3 units in a codex might be, hands down, the best 3 units in the game (example), but, if those 3 units don't work together well, you'll win the first couple of games through sheer power, but then really start to struggle as people begin to realise what each unit does. Once that happens, things can quickly fall apart.
As for Spears durability in combat, in isolation, sure they aren't that tough, but,, now moving into the wider view, as soon as i give them 2 or 3 psychic powers it changes dramatically. A -1 to hit, 2+/3++ vs shooting with a 5+ FNP suddenly becomes painful on 2 wound models.
I also, kind disagree with all the "if this unit charges it kills x unit" kind of arguments. In 8th, it's simply become a game of "who attacks first in combat, usually wins" - instead of "this unit specialises in combat so should be able to take a punch and throw one back". Genestealers murder Berserkers, but Berserkers also murder Genestealers, so, we can't really just use that as a basis for "x is better than y". However, in this instance, Spears also have a distinct advantage (especially Saim-hann ones) over a lot of other units. This is simply because they can move 22", shoot and still charge, whilst being able to move over other units. And, if really needed, they can turn that 22" move into a 44" move. (now, there are arguments about whether Genestealers can kinda do this as well via a mix of several stratagems and powers, but i believe that to not be the case).
I tried to isolate Spears vs SM bikes, simply to attempt to draw an conclusion to how much different they are and costed, before taking into account all the extras (simply because we can't put a points cost on 1 CP or a psychic power for example). Maybe eventually we'll be able to, but i think we need all the codices first.
I personally agree that Spears are just better than Scorpions and Banshees, but, to just try to compare them 1v1 is wrong. The problem those 2 units currently have is different to their counter parts strengths. However, they also have strengths that the Spears do not have. (10 banshees and Jain-Zar charging out of a wave serpent = dead unit for example). Scorpions also gain a free "deep strike". Sure, they might not be that strong in combat, but, in a way, they can become an expensive, sit in cover and deny deep-strike/hold objective unit. With a 2+ save in cover they will still die, but, they are a distraction. It is the same with Hawks. Jump up and down around the table onto objectives beings a 65 point annoyance that noone really wants to spend firepower on when there are "bigger" threats on the table.
hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.
Xenomancers wrote: hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.
Best I can think is to have them roll near a warlord with the -1 AP on a 6 to wound warlord trait and shoot them at your doomed target (they will basically always be able to reach it)
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Kdash wrote: Mathhammer is a great tool, however, it should always be used to guide decisions, rather than control decisions and choices. 2 or 3 units in a codex might be, hands down, the best 3 units in the game (example), but, if those 3 units don't work together well, you'll win the first couple of games through sheer power, but then really start to struggle as people begin to realise what each unit does. Once that happens, things can quickly fall apart.
Exactly, PPW is great, but if it's the sole metric I should be able to take a Land Raider stat line and put it in a single Space Marine model and have it make no difference, which is obviously not the case.
Kdash wrote: As for Spears durability in combat, in isolation, sure they aren't that tough, but,, now moving into the wider view, as soon as i give them 2 or 3 psychic powers it changes dramatically. A -1 to hit, 2+/3++ vs shooting with a 5+ FNP suddenly becomes painful on 2 wound models.
Yes, but this could be said for a lot of models. Oblterators aren't that bad on their own, but I give them the Mark of Tzeentch, make them Alpha Legion, put them next to the Changeling, and give them a Daemon Prince who's casting Prescience on them and it's a completely different ballgame.
Kdash wrote: I also, kind disagree with all the "if this unit charges it kills x unit" kind of arguments.
This was part of the comparison I was attempting to make with the Rhino earlier (the effectiveness of said comparison is what it is), but as you mention, 8th edition heavily favors the initiating unit/army.
ITC tournament rules have done some interesting stuff in terms of mitigating the advantage at an army level, but not really on a unit to unit basis.
Kdash wrote: However, in this instance, Spears also have a distinct advantage (especially Saim-hann ones) over a lot of other units. This is simply because they can move 22", shoot and still charge, whilst being able to move over other units. And, if really needed, they can turn that 22" move into a 44" move. (now, there are arguments about whether Genestealers can kinda do this as well via a mix of several stratagems and powers, but i believe that to not be the case).
While this is an amazing amount of movement it also implies that this unit is on the table on turn 1, not coming in from deep strike, so in that scenario, they could lose first turn, get shot to hell and be a complete waste of points.
I also feel that movement is not quite the attribute it was in previous editions. There are so many flavors of deep strike now that a unit's ability to move doesn't necessarily protect it from assault or short range firepower anymore. The GSC Genestealers don't need to do this because Cult Ambush is absolutely amazing, and with the new stratagems from CA, it's gotten even better. By the same token, it's not entirely fair for me to use what is arguably the best ambushing unit in the game for this comparison. If the Patriarch and his Genestealer crew want a unit dead, they'll probably get to kill it when they come on the table, that's just the nature of the beast.
Kdash wrote: I tried to isolate Spears vs SM bikes, simply to attempt to draw an conclusion to how much different they are and costed, before taking into account all the extras (simply because we can't put a points cost on 1 CP or a psychic power for example). Maybe eventually we'll be able to, but i think we need all the codices first.
This is, in my opinion, the only really valid comparison. Obviously in that comparison, SM Bikers lose, but I tend to think they lose regardless. I have a very low opinion of SM/CSM Bikes, as evidenced by the fact that in 25 years of collecting Chaos models I've never been tempted to buy Bikers. Maybe I've been missing something for the last quarter century.
Kdash wrote: I personally agree that Spears are just better than Scorpions and Banshees, but, to just try to compare them 1v1 is wrong.
It's definitely apples and oranges.
Kdash wrote: Jump up and down around the table onto objectives beings a 65 point annoyance that noone really wants to spend firepower on when there are "bigger" threats on the table.
This is a point that I think doesn't get made enough here in the discussion of what's trash and what's good. What is the value of a unit like this? It can hold an objective, you don't want to ignore it, but at the same time, the level of firepower needed to kill it is prohibitive enough that your opponent is reluctant to do anything about it. The Scorpions deep striking and sitting on an objective with a 2+ armor save isn't going to get wiped out by basic troop killing weapons, but do you really want to point Lascannons at them? Do you have the time and resources to do so?
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Xenomancers wrote: hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
This is a good example of Xenomancer complaining (again) about Eldar without taking context. He/she says they "can deep strike for free" because you paid the points for the unit that can do that - like literally every other model with a deep strike ability. This isn't a point about Eldar at all, it's just stating a fact. The sky is blue, therefore Eldar are OP.
Xenomancers wrote: hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.
Hawks are...decent as a kind of throw-away infantry. As with everything Eldar, they hit hard (ish) and then collapse when someone throws a sideways glance at them. I think they're probably best used as anti-horde stuff. They have four-shot lasguns. I have a squad of nine including an Exarch and yes it can delete a five man squad of Space Marines normally, but that's not a tremendous feat. Oddly I think they do well in cover where their armour save becomes 3+ and they can just dump lasfire all around them. A little pricey for what you get, but it's also one of the few standard Deep Striking units the Eldar have (outside of Stratagems they have maybe 4-5?).
Xenomancers wrote: hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
This is a good example of Xenomancer complaining (again) about Eldar without taking context. He/she says they "can deep strike for free" because you paid the points for the unit that can do that - like literally every other model with a deep strike ability. This isn't a point about Eldar at all, it's just stating a fact. The sky is blue, therefore Eldar are OP.
Basically I was really just stating that they don't have to spend a command point to do it like all the other units we are talking about. Honestly outisde of dark reapers and singing spears I have no issue with units in the codex being underpriced - in fact - dire avenger and warlocks conclave (significantly) could go down in price and I would be pretty happy.
Xenomancers wrote: hawks are another great anti infantry unit. 4 shots at 24 inches on a unit that move 14 inches and can advance and shoot...can deep strike for free - with some other cool gimicks.
Really if they didn't have such crappy finecast models I'd get 20 of them right away.
I keep wanting to find a way to add them into my army (competitive army anyway) but i keep failing and choosing other options. HOWEVER, in my themed army they will be incredible and i can't help but feel it'd also be pretty competitive itself.
Hawks are...decent as a kind of throw-away infantry. As with everything Eldar, they hit hard (ish) and then collapse when someone throws a sideways glance at them. I think they're probably best used as anti-horde stuff. They have four-shot lasguns. I have a squad of nine including an Exarch and yes it can delete a five man squad of Space Marines normally, but that's not a tremendous feat. Oddly I think they do well in cover where their armour save becomes 3+ and they can just dump lasfire all around them. A little pricey for what you get, but it's also one of the few standard Deep Striking units the Eldar have (outside of Stratagems they have maybe 4-5?).
Can you honestly look at a tactical marine and say that without laughing? They cost the same as a tactical marine.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, to be fair, it's a tautology to say "eldar are op because eldar are op."
So his argument is valid.
I think the premises are unsound, but I don't think Xenomancers is terribly concerned with actual truth in the form of facts.
I am absolutely concerned about the truth in the form of facts.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I'm not going to go through all the effort of quoting but swooping hawks are basically the worst anti GEQ in the game (when comparing anti GEQ units) essentially never making their points back against the units their designed to kill. It's not that their weapons are bad, its that they're (as with almost all footdar) so expoensive per model and so fething squishy that they can't compete point for point. Do you really think 10 swooping hawks can kill 33 guardsmen even if they hit first? Not a chance. Don't forget they're fast attack so we can't even use them to fill out battalions for more CP.
Whoever said spears don't have a penalty for advancing is dead wrong. Given their movespeed you basically never want to have to advance your spears because if you do you have to spend CP just to allow them to charge. You're using CP to give them 6" of move which is pretty garbage.
Guardian PPW in a vacuum are great, until you remember they're 12" and now they're in rapidfire range of everyone else so your mathhammer goes out the window and every guardian costs as much as 2 guardsmen for the same toughness and wounds.
What Xeno seems to be forgetting is the PPW isn't damn near close to enough to determine how points effective a unit is, you need to compare the PPW it takes to KILL them too and thats why you seem to think eldar is AP. Yes, most things have pretty good PPW but Eldar is typically firing against 1.5 - 2x the same amount of wounds/toughness equivalent.
I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?
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I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?
Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.
And unless you're taking your wounds very poorly, those gaunts are going to be out of charge range so you're going to kill about 20 of them before the spears are slaughtered.
I mean the assumption is you're going to be as close as possible when you open up and with an average charge of 10 (9+1") given the re-roll its pretty tough to entirely pull a unit out of charge range. You're going to have had to deploy them with some width and some depth and even at maximum spacing you're going to have a hard time clearing out a 10" bubble to prevent any charge. It may end up denying some of the spears attacks but its hard to prevent them from charging.
I don't think spears are undercosted to be clear but you've literally compared them to one of the things they actually excel at blasting right through. Units like Gaunts or even more so guard screens are fodder for spears, the key isn't that they can't kill those its that a smart opponent will only feed you those until he can bring a counter punch in. They're vulnerable to cheap large screens because if they don't get to charge a premium target they really weren't worth more than another unit of Dark Reapers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 22:28:20
Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)
Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.
None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.
Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.
Wow, this is impressively clueless as to how Nids work. Guess it's true, the less you know, the more you think you know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 23:31:40
I mean hell, for the same price as the dreaded 10 man shining spear unit you can take 60 fething gaunts, do you really think 10 shining spears can kill 60 gaunts?
Yes - almost without question. 10 Shining Spears have 40 Shruiken Catapult Shots, 10 Laser Lance shots and then another 21 attacks in melee.
Math it out, you are taking out only half of them. You get up to ~40 with guide and ~ 47 with doom.
Whoever said spears don't have a penalty for advancing is dead wrong. Given their movespeed you basically never want to have to advance your spears because if you do you have to spend CP just to allow them to charge. You're using CP to give them 6" of move which is pretty garbage.
The CP also allows you to re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the next fight phase, in addition to giving you the 12” move – 12” due to the updated ruling on moving a 2nd time if you advanced in the movement phase.
For me, this is pretty big for 2 reasons.
1- It allows Spears to find the gaps in the opponent’s deployment and target whatever unit it wants (either starting on the table or deep-striking) and using Quicken.
2- After using Quicken you probably won’t be within range of an Autarch. As such, this reduces your reliance on the Autarch and allows you more options with the rest of your army.
If I know I can keep Spears alive 1st turn if I don’t win the roll off (LoS, screening or -1 to hit stratagem) I’d be tempted to start them on the table and take the 44” move hoping I get quicken off when I attempt to cast it on a 6+ re-rolling. That said, you’ll likely find more flexibility deep-striking them and just using the 22” move.
Requiring the CP is, in a way a penalty though, I agree. It simply means that you have to take into account the fact that you’ll be required to spend x amount of CP 1st turn and need to factor it into your game plan.
For example, I have a list running 10 CP, but, realistically, my CP cost wants to be around 12-13 (1st world problems, right? xD), but, this has to be considered. My setup currently requires me to spend between 6 and 8 CP in the first turn (not including a command re-roll) in order to ensure I get the full affects I want. It does provide a different sort of game management challenge that I think people do forget about.
