| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2017/12/05 21:26:29
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
A vetren biker with a storm sheild and a melta gun cost 58 points...compared to 31....did we miss that part?
|
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
|
 |
|
2017/12/05 21:28:53
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
A veteran biker has a better invul, no? It's both better and works all the time.
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 21:29:17
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
And a shining Spear Exarch with Paragon Blade is 31 points, but you never see that taken either.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 21:30:42
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
Bharring wrote:And a shining Spear Exarch with Paragon Blade is 31 points, but you never see that taken either.
What is that? lol
|
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 21:33:04
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
More specifically, on that Vet Biker:
He's got better shooting, by a great margin. MG is, appropriately, a much better gun than a Laser Lance.
He's much more survivable, in every case. Higher T. Better ++. His ++ isn't only for Ranged attacks.
The Spear is better, per point, in CC.
The Vet Sarge you bring up is never taken, because a ++ on Bikes isn't worth that many points, even when it's a 3++ that's always on. And Plasma is simply the better option than Melta in most cases in this edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paragon Blade? replaces the Laser Lance, reroll CC hits/wounds, same points - Exarch only.
It's in the rules of the Shining Spear, if you want to take a look at what they actually do.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 21:34:11
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 21:38:56
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
I'll be honest with you guys. Maybe Shining Spears have good rules, but I wouldn't change my Black Knights and their kick ass models for those ugly and old plastic-resin hybrid models!
|
 Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 21:39:57
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Kitbash FTW!
Not a fan of Failcast, myself. Made mine with some bits from a variety of kits (Windriders, Cold One Riders, and Scourge, mostly).
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:04:20
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
Spears have the dumbest looking models known to man. I can agree with that 100%. I would have to make mine out of windriders and cold ones as Bharring suggested.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shining spears are much less undercosted than warlock bikers are over-costed though.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 22:06:16
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:07:36
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Somebody hasn't seen Jain Zar...
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:08:56
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Bharring wrote:I think I got my answer to how Spears are considered The New OP:
-They are good for their points
-Somehow 2x18" Plasma shots is outclassed by 4 ShuriCat shots
-Melta Guns and a 3++ pale in comparison to 6" range D:2 and a 4++
- CWE therefore OP, because everything always WWPs and gets Quicken'ed.
Yes, and don't forget Quicken costs no extra points, has unlimited range, and always works. Same with Webway Portal, it's free and unlimited.
|
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:12:06
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
And I agree that Shining Spears are undercosted. I just don't see them being terribly undercosted.
I like Spears in small units being a thing. I hope the meta doesn't move to max-units. I'm sure a max unit of Spears with lots of buffs wouldn't be fun to play against, whether it was OP or not.
Warlocks on bikes are hard to balance. They can take a Spear for a S9 gun in addition to their TLSC (not as good as last edition, because high S doesn't mean as much), wound on 2's in CC, can attempt to deny, and can hide behind any other units (as long as they're not in conclaves).
I actually think the foot-Warlock is about right (it doesn't get full-smite). I just think there are better options in the CWE book. But, on foot, a Spirit Seer is barely more points, better stats, doesn't have the same high chance to go poof in one Perils, and gets 2 powers.
The Warlock on bike is probably only a little overcosted. It's still a force multiplier if something else is in front of it. Even aside from the powers, wounding on 2s can be nice (but not as big a deal as last edition). The problem is the only units that step in front of it well can be kept up with on foot.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:21:03
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
|
Read the third battle of my battle report here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744534.page
The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.
|
 - 10,000 pts |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:32:15
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
That list doesn't look fun to play against.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:42:02
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Clousseau
|
Anything with multiple wounds and a 4++ is automatically strong.
It is immediately more durable than terminators, or Grey Knight terminators, which are 40+ PPM, move 5", and get a storm bolter. They have better melee, too.
This doesn't make them OP.
But it does make them undercosted.
|
 Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:52:32
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Just to weigh in here, Spear are costed about right. Windriders are what is over-costed in comparison. The only thing that should go up in cost is the Exarch's Star lance. For only 2ppm more than a Laser Lance (6ppm), you get Str8. Since the Star lance is the main reason you get an Exarch (besides the free extra wound) it should cost about twice what a regular LL costs.
The reason they can never be considered OP is that they are basically Flying Primaris Marines. T4 with 2W is pretty easy to kill, even with a 4++ against shooting.
Sure Protect and Quicken make them even better, but you have to spend points on the Psyker to use those and at 7 to cast, trust me, they are far from reliable.
So far I have yet to have both powers go off in the same turn, despite dedicating 2 Warlocks to my Spear unit.
What you should really be considering is an Autarch Skyrunner with Reaper launcher & Banshee mask. It's like having 2 Shining Spears fused together with a Dark Reaper hitching a ride. Not allowing Overwatch is all the sweeter.
-
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 22:55:16
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:52:48
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
More durable than Termies against things with AP-3 or better. Worse against anything else. Termies have a 2+ base compared to these guys' 3+ base. Further, Termies don't lose their ++ in CC. And Spears need to get into CC to really do their work.
Laser Lances are good - S6 the first round, S3 after that, always AP-4 and D2 But Power Fists are better. -1 to hit, but always S8. Ap-3 and D:d3. Same number of attacks. And Spears are t4 3+/- 2W, whereas Termies are t4 2+/5++ 2W.
Spears are *not* better in CC than Termies.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:58:38
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
I agree with this, but would add 1 caveat that Spears can actually make it to melee, whereas Termies have a much harder time, often relying on 9" charges.
-
|
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:58:44
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
I have never understood this logic of comparing one unit agaisn't the other to say what one is better at meele. Is like comparing Death Company and Khorne Berzerkers of Genestealers. In many cases, it comes down to who charges who.
The one that charges wins.
A unit is much more than his meele capabilities, as we have discuss in the Bloodletter thread. How fast it is, how reliable it can reach meele, etc... are even more important.
|
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 22:59:47
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
|
And you can't really discount spear shooting. Sure, it's close range, but it's also incredibly good.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:00:37
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Certainly Spears are better than Termies. Tacs are better than Termies, even. But claims of Spears being more durable or being better in CC should be cleared up.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:04:24
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
Personally, for me, "Being better in CC" isn't just doing damage in meele or surviving meele, or killing the other unit faster (Because theres anti-horde meele and anti-elite meele), but being ABLE to reach meele too.
For example, theres not many units that can beat Custodes in meele mano-a-mano for the same points, specially if they are elite units. But they don't have a way to reach meele. Only in a Land Raider. And thats too expensive.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 23:05:24
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:09:05
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
What I'm getting from this thread is that Spears are really good, but not OP gak (on their own).
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:11:48
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
Spears are a little undercosted. Other bikers go from "Very overcosted" to "A little overcosted".
But bikers will never have a place (If they are properly balanced) as long as plasma is as dominant as it is now. At least, tournament-level speaking. If your local-meta doesn't spam plasma, then you are in luck. Thats my case and I can play Primaris and Terminators all day without being destroyed.
|
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:29:37
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
|
...I am responsible for so much suffering in this world...
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:32:28
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
|
Melee unit
Overpowered
Loving every laugh.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/05 23:46:18
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
How did you manage to lose 2 vehicles and have 4 others damaged by 3 brightlances and shuriken catapults?
|
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
|
|
|
|
2017/12/06 00:13:01
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Guarding Guardian
Australia
|
Xenomancers wrote:A vetren biker with a storm sheild and a melta gun cost 58 points...compared to 31....did we miss that part?
To paraphrase a long held balance philosophy in card games, "Its not powercreep if the previous version was never used".
Using overcosted units as the baseline to compare just makes everything seem OP.
Hell, someone was complaining about how OP Vypers were when compared to Land Speeders in another thread recently. Neither are competitive options at the moment.
Marmatag wrote:Anything with multiple wounds and a 4++ is automatically strong.
It is immediately more durable than terminators, or Grey Knight terminators, which are 40+ PPM, move 5", and get a storm bolter. They have better melee, too.
This doesn't make them OP.
But it does make them undercosted.
See above.
Galas wrote:I have never understood this logic of comparing one unit against the other to say what one is better at melee. Is like comparing Death Company and Khorne Berzerkers of Genestealers. In many cases, it comes down to who charges who.
The one that charges wins.
A unit is much more than his melee capabilities, as we have discuss in the Bloodletter thread. How fast it is, how reliable it can reach melee, etc... are even more important.
Part of the reason Spears are held so highly by Eldar players is that they not only win the raw mathhammer side of things vs. the other close combat Aspects but also have all of the out of combat advantages too. When one unit is more efficient at killing the most common infantry statline ( MeQ), more durable per point, faster and better at shooting something is seriously wrong with the internal balancing.
(the numbers vs. MeQ)
5 SS with Exarch with Starlance : 30.06 points per wound inflicted
10 HB with Exarch with Executioner : 32.88 points per wound inflicted
10 SS with Exarch with Scorpions Claw : 31.81 points per wound inflicted
Against multiwound models this advantage only grows.
Bharring wrote:What I'm getting from this thread is that Spears are really good, but not OP gak (on their own).
They are the best Aspect close combat unit by a fair margin. Either a nerf to their survivability (making the invulnerable more conditional, for example) or a small points increase should sort them out.
As with most of the better Craftworld options though, an allied Ynarri detachment exacerbates the problem from 'that's an efficient unit' to a balance issue.
Bharring wrote:Kitbash FTW!
Not a fan of Failcast, myself. Made mine with some bits from a variety of kits (Windriders, Cold One Riders, and Scourge, mostly).
As someone with the old twin shuriken catapult bikes thats looking for a way to make them actually playable, could you send me some pictures?
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/06 00:54:30
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
 DarknessEternal wrote:
How did you manage to lose 2 vehicles and have 4 others damaged by 3 brightlances and shuriken catapults?
Probably rolled hot with the Damage on the Lances and Rend for the Catapults. It's super unlikely it happens, but I didn't read the battle report.
|
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
 jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
 vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
 MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/06 08:45:41
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Regular Dakkanaut
|
The old models aren't great but can be kitbashed with the new jetbike...
Or use a third party stand in...
|
|
|
|
|
2017/12/06 09:11:26
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Spears are pretty much always useful. With great movement, a high S weapon, and a low S high RoF one, they'll always have a good target to engage. So they're reliable, and can deal a great deal of damage if they can use all their assets in the same turn. It's also a by-product of 8th ed. rules, since you can shoot 2 different units and charge a 3rd one now, so mixing weapon types is actually decent now.
They're also prime candidates for Ynnari detachments.
You use soulburst shooting on dark reapers, and movement/charge/fight on spears.
I think they're a bit too cheap given how many things they can do. Not insanely OP, but a couple more points (and an additional point increase on the exarch's weapon) would do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
