Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.
You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?
In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.
Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat
They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 12:25:25
Fafnir wrote: There is no world where Spears should cost less than Spectres. Period. Take of that what you will.
I'd agree with this. But I this Spectres got an over nerf with CA. They needed to be more expensive, sure, but not 10ppm more. They are still a 1W T3 model
Shining spears did not change from the Index to the Codex, aside from points. They dropped about 10ppm overall and about 35ppm seems about right for them.
Shining Spears are strong, but I'd say not over-powered.
At the end of the day it's still (starting) a unit of Tough 4 models with 7 wounds and 3+/4+ armour --- meaning they die immediately to assault cannons, bolt guns, etc.
As a strong one-hit pouncing unit? They excel. I hide mine if I can and just jump out to get a single turn attack in. Normally they die quickly after unless I'm lucky. Like most Eldar stuff they're not very robust.
Elbows wrote: Shining Spears are strong, but I'd say not over-powered.
At the end of the day it's still (starting) a unit of Tough 4 models with 7 wounds and 3+/4+ armour --- meaning they die immediately to assault cannons, bolt guns, etc.
As a strong one-hit pouncing unit? They excel. I hide mine if I can and just jump out to get a single turn attack in. Normally they die quickly after unless I'm lucky. Like most Eldar stuff they're not very robust.
I mean, anything dies to assault cannons; it IS why the AssBack is the choice of transport for C:SM. Like I haven't seen the local Eldar use them so I can't say I know from experience but like maybe they are 2ppm undercosted. That is a pretty good stat-line that you just said, toss the movement onto it and anyone sees a pretty good unit. But the problem is that it is a melee unit in a codex of primarily shooting units, so it has next to no support. I can't see much potential for abuse. Right now there is other fish to fry that are actually op.
I would be curious how many "Shining Spears" are being proxied by the now-less-than-stellar Scatbikes people had...and if that's ending up with large units of "not" Shining Spears running around the tables.
My Shining Spears aren't the best kitbashing work. There are much, much better options.
I used the old WIndrider kit, not the new one (wasn't out at the time). Left arm on the control, right arm holding the Lance. Chestpieces I think were Reavers, backplates were Scourges with the middle powercells removed (so the lances would fit, and makes them more distinctive). Removed the right-side handlebars. Used Scourge heads - but had to get 3 of the helms that were full helms with only eyeslits - they need to be uniform. For the Exarch, with a little care and some trimming, two spare handlebars made some cool looking horns (as the Exarch's helm should have additional ornamentation.
I used Dark Elf Cold One lances, with the tips removed, for the Laser Lances. It looks good. For the Star Lance (all my Exarchs have a weapon "upgrade"), I used a Silver Helms lance without removing the tip. You want the Laser Lances to all look identical, though, so be careful what you pick.
I'd strongly suggest not using the lances I did though. I've seen much better versions that used Brightlance shafts mounted on either Fantasy lance pommels or a lancepommel made of two trimmed ShuriKats back-to-back (looks like one cone instead of two pieces).
For helms, I'm thinking there are better Fantasy helms for the purpose. I'm thinking Dragon Princes helms - with the biggest for the Exarch - might look good. My Exodite counts-as do that. Although I've never fielded both my CWE Shining Spears and my Exodite Shining Spears in the same list (my Exodites don't look all that great, and the rules changes really killed the character of my models).
Quickjager,
There were posts in other threads about them being OP, including them being the most OP in the game. Didn't want to derail those threads with this topic.
Back on topic, I think I agree they'd be better at 35-38 ppm, or something like that. I'm really glad they have a place as hard-hitter. And if they fail in their job, they're basically dead. The 8th Ed rules were very kind to them, and some of our stratagems/traits/powers do great things for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 14:36:37
Since 8th came out I never played a game without. My preferit unit in the game since I play. On paper they can seem OP, IMHO I don't think they are... If you play them wisely they are a must have, perfect sinergy with the battle runes, amazingly quick, basically you can go and get any objective on the table most of the time in one turn, getting rid of any sort of small unit.
But they have super short range fire, and if the opponent counter charge them they are gone.
Said this... I would never drop my 4+ exarch
I don't mean to take the thread off topic, but while we're talking Eldar and Jetbikes...
Maybe it's the horrifically overcosted Warlock Conclave on Jetbikes that makes Shining Spears seem cheap in comparison. Has anyone figured out a cost effective use for them yet?
No. I'm not expecting Conclaves to be effective this edition.
Warlocks on Bikes may have some uses, but are a little overcosted. But Warlocks' real problem is being overshadowed by the Spirit Seer which can take the relic to keep up for free, and having a not-unreasonable chance to insta-splat himself each time he manifests a power (Uthwe actually reduces that chance quite a bit - accidental fluffyness!).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And losing Character protection and points efficiency at casting powers just for the stratagem either gets a small unit killed very, very quickly, or makes a large unit not effective (and still die fast).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 14:59:22
The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.
You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?
In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.
Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat
They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.
Would have made a difference if I had gone first, yes. Would it have changed the outcome? Depends on how he rolls. I actually got a lot of shooting off on him, even from overwatch, where I used the "defensive gunners" strategem on my command russ to make it hit more. An entire shooting phase of fire coming from a shadowsword with maxed out sponsons and rerolling all misses, killed very little. Their durability was just too much to handle.
As far as why I lost 3 vehicles, the shurikan cannons murdered my infantry and the ones that fired at the vehicles rolled a few 6's to wound. Their lances' shooting profiles are Str6 AP-4, then they got to charge and swing at Str 6 AP-4 as well. So bottom line? I lost my vehicles because everything he was using basically completely negated all my armor saves and there was no way to prevent him from getting to melee on the first turn because of the speed of the bikes, pychic powers, and strategem shenanigans.
Were they fluffy? I don't know Eldar fluff enough to know, what I do know is that battle was absolutely -0 FUN-, and it would have been so regardless of who won. I won't say there were no tactics used, but there was no finesse needed. It was just move up, shoot, charge, game over.
Bottom line. My opinion based on a pretty detailed analysis of the unit stands that they are undercosted, but not OP.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/07 15:18:20
The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.
You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?
In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.
Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat
They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.
Would have made a difference if I had gone first, yes. Would it have changed the outcome? Depends on how he rolls. I actually got a lot of shooting off on him, even from overwatch, where I used the "defensive gunners" strategem on my command russ to make it hit more. An entire shooting phase of fire coming from a shadowsword with maxed out sponsons and rerolling all misses, killed very little. Their durability was just too much to handle.
As far as why I lost 3 vehicles, the shurikan cannons murdered my infantry and the ones that fired at the vehicles rolled a few 6's to wound. Their lances' shooting profiles are Str6 AP-4, then they got to charge and swing at Str 6 AP-4 as well. So bottom line? I lost my vehicles because everything he was using basically completely negated all my armor saves and there was no way to prevent him from getting to melee on the first turn because of the speed of the bikes, pychic powers, and strategem shenanigans.
Were they fluffy? I don't know Eldar fluff enough to know, what I do know is that battle was absolutely -0 FUN-, and it would have been so regardless of who won. I won't say there were no tactics used, but there was no finesse needed. It was just move up, shoot, charge, game over.
Bottom line. My opinion based on a pretty detailed analysis of the unit stands that they are undercosted, but not OP.
Under-costed and OP mean exactly the same thing. OP literally means - too much power for the cost. Spears could totally be fixed by increasing their price by about 10 points.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The old models aren't great but can be kitbashed with the new jetbike...
Or use a third party stand in...
Wow, loving the look of those 3rd party Spears! Which company does them? I haven't ordered up my standard spears yet (as they were out of stock for ages) but these look so much better!
Xenomancers thinks an Eldar unit needs an unwarranted points increase? What's next - snow in December?
Shining Spears - much like nearly everything else in the Eldar codex fills a niche role. They're still T4 models, they are roughly as durable as 2 space marines a piece. The idea that they should be 40+ points a piece is mind boggling. But I also get the general idea here is 'do Eldar players use it?, yes? too cheap, needs to be pointed into not being taken'.
The old models aren't great but can be kitbashed with the new jetbike...
Or use a third party stand in...
Wow, loving the look of those 3rd party Spears! Which company does them? I haven't ordered up my standard spears yet (as they were out of stock for ages) but these look so much better!
I, too, would love to know where those come from. They look great.
Farseer_V2 wrote: Xenomancers thinks an Eldar unit needs an unwarranted points increase? What's next - snow in December?
Shining Spears - much like nearly everything else in the Eldar codex fills a niche role. They're still T4 models, they are roughly as durable as 2 space marines a piece. The idea that they should be 40+ points a piece is mind boggling. But I also get the general idea here is 'do Eldar players use it?, yes? too cheap, needs to be pointed into not being taken'.
I don't think you have been following the thread. A points increase is totally warranted.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Maybe by 1-3 pts a model. 10 pts a model is totally unwarranted and takes the unit from being a solid anti-horde unit that will see play to a unit that will sit on the shelf. The fact that other units are inappropriately costed on the high side doesn't mean you should simply push shining spears to those same unusable levels. Or are we just interested in not seeing bikes in play in general?
I've been following it. Spears need a point increase about the same time as 30-50 other units in the game.
The main problem so far in this edition is internal balance, where only a few units in each codex shine. Either those top few get reduced, or all the others get buffed. But singling out Spears is silly. Virtually every army that has a codex has comparable or better units. Eldar have at least 2 that are better. Spears aren't that far off the sweet spot.
Under-costed and OP mean exactly the same thing. OP literally means - too much power for the cost. Spears could totally be fixed by increasing their price by about 10 points.
No, then they would be UP. Calling every model that is even one point undercosted OP is certainly redefining standard use of that term.
Farseer_V2 wrote: Maybe by 1-3 pts a model. 10 pts a model is totally unwarranted and takes the unit from being a solid anti-horde unit that will see play to a unit that will sit on the shelf. The fact that other units are inappropriately costed on the high side doesn't mean you should simply push shining spears to those same unusable levels. Or are we just interested in not seeing bikes in play in general?
What do you cost the spears weapon at? It's basically a plasma pistol that cant kill the user combined with a master crafted power sword that has +2 str and an additional -1 AP - those 2 peices of gear are 17 points and the spear is better and worse in some regards. They also get a 3+ save +1 attack and 4++ to shooting compared to a windrider that costs 23 points. 23+17 is 40 - and thats not even calculating their increased durability. They would still be great and effective at 40 points. At 31 it's criminal to play them - downright criminal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Obviously GW disagrees that Spears need an increase considering they specifically and intentionally decreased their points from Index to Codex.
There is no sense to their point increases and decreases. They seem almost completely random.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/07 17:19:51
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The shining spears are definitely undercoster. I don't know if they're "OMG BROKEN OP" but from this single experience, I can tell you they definitely need a points boost.
You correctly pointed out in your report that if you'd gone first instead you would've caused substantial damage. If you had, would it have been okay for your opponent to say that your army is undercosted and boring to play against?
In competitive play, like serious top table competitive play, shining spears are incredibly important in keeping eldar competitive with the spectre nerf, without them eldar cannot be efficient enough against hordes to compete, and even then spears are not really optimal, they're just the best eldar has.
Of all the things to call a nerf for, I don't think spears, which have a really cool set of rules that are impactful and fluffy, and are clearly the third best unit in the eldar codex after reapers and the hemlocks, should be the thing to hit with the nerf bat
They are powerful on paper and work well on the table, they require you to have some skill to play them well to get the maximum benefit. They definitely aren't 'over-powered'/'game-breaking', they're in a brilliant spot where they are good and synergise well with the rest of the army and eldar playstyle.
Would have made a difference if I had gone first, yes. Would it have changed the outcome? Depends on how he rolls. I actually got a lot of shooting off on him, even from overwatch, where I used the "defensive gunners" strategem on my command russ to make it hit more. An entire shooting phase of fire coming from a shadowsword with maxed out sponsons and rerolling all misses, killed very little. Their durability was just too much to handle.
As far as why I lost 3 vehicles, the shurikan cannons murdered my infantry and the ones that fired at the vehicles rolled a few 6's to wound. Their lances' shooting profiles are Str6 AP-4, then they got to charge and swing at Str 6 AP-4 as well. So bottom line? I lost my vehicles because everything he was using basically completely negated all my armor saves and there was no way to prevent him from getting to melee on the first turn because of the speed of the bikes, pychic powers, and strategem shenanigans.
Were they fluffy? I don't know Eldar fluff enough to know, what I do know is that battle was absolutely -0 FUN-, and it would have been so regardless of who won. I won't say there were no tactics used, but there was no finesse needed. It was just move up, shoot, charge, game over.
Bottom line. My opinion based on a pretty detailed analysis of the unit stands that they are undercosted, but not OP.
I just can't agree that there are no tactics to a game like that. Spears have a shooting range of 28", including movement. Only one unit can move 22" and still assault. Unless it was a very strange board, you certainly could have deployed outside this range, which would have been to your advantage. Using a Tallarn Heavy certainly puts tactical elements under your control.
I would be curious how many "Shining Spears" are being proxied by the now-less-than-stellar Scatbikes people had...and if that's ending up with large units of "not" Shining Spears running around the tables.
Guilty as charged, your honor.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Xenomancers wrote: What do you cost the spears weapon at? It's basically a plasma pistol that cant kill the user combined with a master crafted power sword that has +2 str and an additional -1 AP - those 2 peices of gear are 17 points and the spear is better and worse in some regards. They also get a 3+ save +1 attack and 4++ to shooting compared to a windrider that costs 23 points. 23+17 is 40 - and thats not even calculating their increased durability. They would still be great and effective at 40 points. At 31 it's criminal to play them - downright criminal.
Let's break down the hyperbole here a bit. It's a Plasma Pistol with a 6" Range and 1 to 2 less strength so giving it strictly the same cost as a plasma pistol is disingenuous. Additionally it is only a +2 S Power Sword on a round on combat the spears charged, otherwise it its a S3 weapon with a still reputable AP and damage profile. Trying to draw cost parallels between two similar pieces of equipment doesn't work because it ignores the context of the unit. I think the spear does deserve a discounted price from the Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon Setup because it is more situational in its application. If Spears were costed at 33-34 ppm I'd be OK (bumping the cost of the lance from 8 to 10 or 11 ppm would be fair). At 40 they're too fragile and too limited in their scope to be worth taking.
That's the crux of the argument really...the lances are very strong in exceptionally limited situations. 6" shooting range and powered up on the turn of the charge?
As far as durability - if you can't kill 7 wounds of Space Marine toughness, there's a whole other issue. Now, someone spamming them with large squads all over the board? Perhaps a bigger issue.
Elbows wrote: As far as durability - if you can't kill 7 wounds of Space Marine toughness, there's a whole other issue. Now, someone spamming them with large squads all over the board? Perhaps a bigger issue.
I agree with this 100% - they get worse as a larger group when they can begin to benefit from single source conceal, protect, and fortune but I don't think they're anymore guilty of being a deathstar than any other units are right now.
IMO, it's not worth trying with Xenomancers. Everything aside from SM are OP according to him, and he's going to continue arguing and making posts about that until the apocalpyse hits and Bobby G gets his points reduced to 3.
Elbows wrote: That's the crux of the argument really...the lances are very strong in exceptionally limited situations. 6" shooting range and powered up on the turn of the charge?
As an aside, this is why I love Eldar philosophy of army building - you get units that are very strong in specific situations, but very much less so in other situations.
- 10,000 pts 
